It's been a sheer delight to have you pop in and then stumble back to your forum and bitch about me, the blog, the children on the blog and the photos I used. Your letters of outrage have been most gratifying, and in some cases humorous.
I'll clear up a few misconceptions your insular little group has about me and this blog.
1) I love stock horses. I grew up with good stock horses and I appreciate good stock horses. What I do not like are good stock horses ruined by poor riding and stupid fads.
2) You can't justify plucking on your horse's reins every three strides. There's no reason for it. If your horse can't hold a frame for more than three strides then he isn't trained.
3) Constantly jabbing your horse with spurs while plucking the reins is stupid. Stop, go, stop, go. It boggles the mind that you think this is riding.
4) The rest of the equine world thinks western pleasure is a joke. You're right there with the Big Lick TWH people.
5) Cantering sideways is not indicative of a comfortable well trained horse.
6) The fact the poll on tail blocking showed a surge in yes votes for this cruel and unnecessary treatment shows that you don't have a problem with cheating or abuse.
7) This blog has an ISP tracker, I know where every single visitor comes from, so if you really want to make "ass whipping" threats be prepared to suffer the repercussions. Your ISP is a unique address right to your computer. Just ask Jack Abramoff how that works.
8) I love how you've now gone into speculating about my private life. For the record I'm not married and I have no kids. All this fanciful speculation because you don't have the balls to email me and ask. If you're all such a bunch of mind readers how come you can't figure out your horse hates being spurred and plucked at all the time?
9) You-Tube undercuts all of your bitching and moaning. Sorry, but there is just too much video evidence to show how crappy the pleasure industry is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4VcDMO98a0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M87fYgir2oc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-QFVmYkX3A&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7wpnZNnffM
These are not isolated incidents. There are entire classes full of leg pumping, rein plucking, spur jabbing riders out there and this is the evidence. If you don't want me to bitch about it then clean up the show ring.
110 comments:
You want to give me an "ass whipping"?? Please go right ahead and track my ISP address and feel free to start. Harassment through email is a CRIME and you would not be the first person that I have contacted the authorities about.
WOW, you have just completely proven your ignorance. If you are so all-knowing and all-seeing of ISP addresses, then you surely know that I have neither emailed you nor do I care to.
sds,
I have not even begun to review all the ISPs from the email I received. It is strange though that you posted here as anonymous and now show up with your id.
Why not use your id the first time?
And why blame me for your lack of reading comprehension? I never threatened anyone, I'm the one being threatened.
Please oh mighty one, review away. I shall be waiting with bated breath.
If you don't like being threatened, perhaps you should stop posting copyrighted photos without permission. This is the exact reason that I refuse to post photos of my own horse on a public site. All it takes is some jealous wanna-be that can't stand the fact that my horse cost more than their car to start a blog proclaiming their expertise in everything from western pleasure to walking horses to dressage and hunter under saddle and saying my horse sucks because they don't have her.
SDS said...
Please oh mighty one, review away. I shall be waiting with bated breath.
If you don't like being threatened, perhaps you should stop posting copyrighted photos without permission. This is the exact reason that I refuse to post photos of my own horse on a public site. All it takes is some jealous wanna-be that can't stand the fact that my horse cost more than their car to start a blog proclaiming their expertise in everything from western pleasure to walking horses to dressage and hunter under saddle and saying my horse sucks because they don't have her.
Wow, these folks do seem to have an issue with reading comprehension. No one is saying your horse sucks, they're saying you suck as a rider. Most of us feel sorry for your horse.
I'm not a jealous wannabe, I'm an appalled horse person who cannot believe that what I see in the ring is considered proper.
It doesn't even look good.
sds:
>All it takes is some jealous wanna-be that can't stand the fact that my horse cost more than their car to start a blog proclaiming their expertise in everything from western pleasure to walking horses to dressage and hunter under saddle and saying my horse sucks because they don't have her.
Please, stay away from the superglue. No one is coveting your horse. I don't covet the horses or people in the photos. I'm not saying the riders suck because I want their horse. I'm saying they suck because they suck. The horse unfortunately has to suffer their suckage.
To both of you...
Considering you have never seen a photo of me OR my horse, how can you POSSIBLY say that I suck as a rider? Or feel sorry for my horse when you have no idea what she even looks like? And annie, if the your avatar is any indication of what you consider "proper"...well that says it all.
sds,
Let's get one thng clear. You came here. I didn't come to your space and start acting like an idiot. if you hate the blog and hate the content then don't come here. No one is compelling you to.
The fact that you keep hanging around, while avowing your disdain for the blog, gives you the aura of a perve in a trench coat hanging around a school yard, while protesting that you hate children.
Ah, but when you post photos/videos of my friends, I feel compelled to stand up for them, as I'm sure you would if I started a blog slamming YOUR friends.
sds,
Your friends are over on their little Jim Jones forum trashing everyone that doesn't have their same mindset. The last time we had that adherance to a party line World War II started and goosestepping became the norm.
So if you showed up to be the white knight then you've already lost the battle.
I'm not taking down the blog. The only way for your "friends" to not end up here is to clean up their riding and hide their crappy pictures.
I watched the videos posted under this section. Does anyone find anything attractive about the horses. Take, for example, the horses in the first video. Regardless of how the riders look, don't you think there are some lovely movers there--rhythmic, cadenced, long-strided? And yes, the horses' heads are too "set" for my tastes, but I find a lot to like about the horses. And if these riders actually trained these horses to do this, don't you think they could train them to go anyway dictated by the governing breed association? I just don't think it's all bad.
Sug
No one asked you to take down your blog. But please know who or what the photos you post are before you post them. Some people are NOT professionals, and have worked very hard to train their horses to the best of THEIR ability, and posting photos of them is very hurtful. If you want to post photos of true professionals, then that is your own perogative, but some of the photos you have posted are NOT trainers.
Okay, I watched about 2 minutes of the first video and cannot yawn enough times to indicate how fucking BORING this is. Even the horses look like they're gonna fall on their faces and go to sleep.
I can't believe anyone actually enjoys showing.
sds, so you paid more for your horse than I did for my car, eh? And for what? Points? A pretty scrap of polyester ribbon? Whoopee.
Hi there everyone.
My name is Jan Hare. I am from Lima, Ohio (just telling you this so there is NO doubt who I am!). This video posted is mine:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6gR6ttL8wQ&feature=related
It was posted without permission, of course. I am VERY proud of my 'baby'. I bred and raised Corky and we ended up with two top 10's at Congress, and she along with my senior HUS horse put me in the top 5 Limited Open HUS riders in AQHA for 2007, and I am an amateur!
Needless to say I am very proud. I am a non-pro. I work a full time job, and in my spare hours when I am not slaving away for 'the man' I am working hard on my riding and training skills. It's a long tough road trying to improve yourself and your horse. Aren't we all on that road? Reaching two top 10's at Congress with a horse I bred and raised was a total dream come true for me. I am sure most of you can understand how much time and effort goes into breeding and raising a good one...lots of blood, sweat, and tears!
Unlike the trojan mouse, I am not afraid to post who I am. I stand behind everything I write, and I don't feel the need to hide like a coward behind a fake name and sit on the sidelines poking at other people. You can pick apart my horse and my equitation all you want, as long as you are gutsy enough to post your own video of yourself so we can do the same. I like to say "put your money where your mouth is". I can see this probably won't happen, which is a shame.
It seems the newest trend is for the sideliners to start these little blogs where they can hide behind a fake name and blast at people they don't even know. The real shame is people who actually enjoy reading this drivel. Trojan can post a thousand videos of me for all I care (you can find them at www.youtube.com/rabbitohio - There, I made it easier for ya to find!). You can't take away the joy I have in my horses, the pride I have in their accomplishments, and the excitement I feel every time I step in the show ring.
The rest of y'all - enjoy your horses! :-]
robyn said, "And for what? Points? A pretty scrap of polyester ribbon?"
No "robyn", for seeing the love on her face every time I walk into the barn. For knowing she is HAPPY doing her job DESPITE my sometimes crappy equitation. She doesn't care that my leg is 2" too far foward or my heel is 1" too far up. She tries her best for me despite my mistakes, and THAT is what I paid for. So, "robyn", no matter how much you TRY to humiliate me it won't work because I know in my heart that my horse love me and THAT is what matters.
Sug,
>And yes, the horses' heads are too "set" for my tastes, but I find a lot to like about the horses.
No one is griping about the quality of the horses. I'm sure they are very nice. They deserve better riding though.
Jan/Rabbit,
I have no idea who put the video of your horse on youtube.
And my comments were not specific about your horse, since I have no idea which one is yours. I was commenting on the class as a whole.
There are a lot of pumping legs and hasty hands in it. If you don't want the video viewed on youtube then remove it, or request that they remove it since it's your horse.
How can you say you have no idea which is hers, when she put it in her post??
Please, PLEASE I beg of you, post some video links of YOUR riding for others to critique...
Trojan Mouse wrote: "No one is griping about the quality of the horses."
True enough.
sds,
I said I had no idea who posted the video on youtube. Even if I removed the link here the video still exists on youtube. I didn't put it there, someone else did.
And I truthfully don't have any video, that would be uploadable, of me riding. Never had anyone around to tape me. I was usually the one doing taping for everyone else.
And for the record sds, you don't have to be able to "do" in order to teach or judge. Look at Bela Karoyli. You think he can haul his big ass up on the balance beam or uneven bars? No, but he can sure create athletes that can. Why? Because he has the eye to do so.
One of the best instructors I ever knew was a legless guy that worked for Bazy Tankersly at Al Marah Arabians. He could fix a riders problems in seconds. And since he couldn't ride beyond a walk, on a special saddle, he didn't do much training. But he could tell you how to fix your horse just from watching. So quit harping on whether I'll post photos of me or not. I'm not the one claiming to be the top in the industry. Instead I'm the theater critic and I don't like what I'm seeing. I know what looks good and what doesn't. And I think the horses deserve better than they are getting.
I still can't wrap my head around the idea that these people think this is what a hunter should look like!
Yawn...another idiot wanting attention simply by criticizing others. Yet can't seem to find anyone to video tape them. LOL. Lamest excuse I've ever heard of. I'm with Jan, PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS instead of bad mouthing other people. Obviously you have this blog for your OWN selfish reasons, which I'd like to guess would be: 1) attention and 2) your chronic low self esteem problem.
pmpkn,
I've got good self esteem and enough moral character to stand up in the face of an entire industry and point out abuse.
You and you ilk promote the abuse so you criticize anyone that speaks out in hopes they'll go away and allow you to continue your abusive ways in peace. It's not going to happen.
Why do you assume that anyone who shows breed shows condones abuse? Isn't that a bit like racial profiling?
Trojan-
Moral character? LOL. That's hilarious! Making fun of people and their horses is WAY different then denouncing abuse! Maybe you need a dictionary?!
Sorry honey, but not only do you lack integrity, you also lack authority and respect. Where's YOUR riding video? I'm sure we'd all LOVE to see it.
I don't abuse my horses, nor do I "promote abuse". You just ASSUME that because people don't agree with you they are abusing their horses.
sds,
>Why do you assume that anyone who shows breed shows condones abuse? Isn't that a bit like racial profiling?
I don't assume that. But your sticking up for methods, which are denounced here, that are cruel and abusive. Do you think the constant rein jerking is kind? Do you think the spur jabbing feels good?
I'm not bitching about the good things in the WP industry. I'm bitching about the bad things. You're taking up for the bad things, so you are condoning them.
pmpkn,
>Moral character? LOL. That's hilarious! Making fun of people and their horses is WAY different then denouncing abuse! Maybe you need a dictionary?!
Show me one post where I made fun of a horse. Come on, just one?
The horses are the victims, they deserve our sympathy, not our derision. They don't get to make choices, only the humans do.
Do you think a single on of those horses woke up and said: Sure hope I get my ass ridden into the ground today, and my mouth jerked every three steps, my tail blocked and some spur jabs. Let's make it a big ol day for me.
I doubt it. Horses don't think along those lines.
> But your sticking up for methods, which are denounced here, that are cruel and abusive. Do you think the constant rein jerking is kind? Do you think the spur jabbing feels good?
REALLY?? Show me ONE POST where I stood up for anyone doing anything cruel and abusive to a horse. Show me ONE POST where I said spur and jerk trainer were good trainers. Show me ONE POST where I said that is the way I ride my horse. You need to stop twisting people's words around.
Blogger SDS said...
To both of you...
Considering you have never seen a photo of me OR my horse, how can you POSSIBLY say that I suck as a rider? Or feel sorry for my horse when you have no idea what she even Looks like? And annie, if the your avatar is any indication of what you consider "proper"...well that says it all.
First off, I have never claimed to be a good rider, but like trojan mouse said, one doesn't have to be the best rider to know what is poor.
Secondly, my photo is not an Avatar. An Avatar represents the Hindu philosophy of the 'descent' or incarnation of a divine being (deva) or the supreme being (God) onto planet Earth. I am not nor have I ever claimed to be a god, god-like or godly.
Besides not being a Hindu, and not believing in any supreme beings, the photo of me is not a graphical image representing me which is what the term "avatar" has come to mean in the computer age.
Finally, this is a picture of me I've used that I use to ask folks, "What are the nine things I'm doing wrong in this photo?" Care you try your hand at it? Most folks can only get seven. But lookie, my horse is moving with impulsion, there's a concept.
Unlike you I don't have issues with criticism, for either or myself or friends.
posted by Trojan:
Show me one post where I made fun of a horse. Come on, just one?
The horses are the victims, they deserve our sympathy, not our derision. They don't get to make choices, only the humans do.
Do you think a single on of those horses woke up and said: Sure hope I get my ass ridden into the ground today, and my mouth jerked every three steps, my tail blocked and some spur jabs. Let's make it a big ol day for me.
I doubt it. Horses don't think along those lines.
Right, so it's OK to make fun of and belittle people because you're "standing up to abuse". LOL. Two wrongs don't make a right sweetie!
And the problem with your blog (not only that it SCREAMS for attention) is that you ASSUME EVERYONE rides there horse this way if they don't agree with you.
I have not had my horses tail done, I don't yank on his mouth every three strides, nor do I ride him into the group everyday! I'm also an ammy and sorry, but nurses can't be at the barn everyday "riding their horses into the ground".
My wonderfully "abused" pleasure horse is sitting comfortably in his $400 a month stall taking a NAP, swatting flies with his super naturally thick undone tail.
That image really RUINS the point of your own blog now doesn't?
"I'm not taking down the blog. The only way for your "friends" to not end up here is to clean up their riding and hide their crappy pictures."
Maybe to you this is crappy riding, maybe to you their pictures are crappy. The thing is this is a hobby- this is the way the "western world" works- if you don't like it then why do you insist on critiquing every tiny aspect of "our industry." If you really feel as if the horses are mistreated, PLEASE go to any BNT barn and look at the facilities- sure some do things to the extreme, but guess what?! EACH sport has extremes- this does not just come down to the horse industry. For example, people that show pigs do drastic things such as starvation for a few weeks with only ounces of feed to get them to the correct weight, or how about not allowing a pig to drink water when it is 100 degress out to make sure it makes weight. You must realize this is a hobby and a passion for many, your opinion is welcome but do not take offense when other's have opinions against yours. You obviousley have too much time on your hands. And NO! do not turn around and tell me not to come here- I get quite an amusement of your blogs.... ohh by the way- would you please post a picture of your facilities and your LOVELY, AWARD WINNING, NON CRAPPY pictures. :)
*by the way you should know that just because you have an ISP does not mean that you can press charges, you must first tell the person not to email you- everybody has freedom of speech.
pmpkn,
>And the problem with your blog (not only that it SCREAMS for attention) is that you ASSUME EVERYONE rides there horse this way if they don't agree with you.
There is no problem with the blog. People come here if they want to, no one is compelled to come here and read. Did someone put a gun to your head and force you to come here?
>I have not had my horses tail done, I don't yank on his mouth every three strides, nor do I ride him into the group everyday!
So?
>My wonderfully "abused" pleasure horse is sitting comfortably in his $400 a month stall taking a NAP, swatting flies with his super naturally thick undone tail.
Good for him. That doesn't excuse the ribby, tired, and distressed looking horses we see in the ring, or on videos. I take care of my pets, they live like eastern potentates, but that doesn't mean there isn't rampant animal abuse in the world.
>That image really RUINS the point of your own blog now doesn't?
Doesn't change a thing. I'm sure not every single catholic priest was a child molestor, but the damage is done because of the ones that were.
The poor images of the WP industry damage it for the reputable trainers. Until the ethical trainers raise a stink and get the drugs, tail lbocking and shitty riding banned then they will suffer from poor public perception too.
What I find really ironic is none of you WP people are bitching that I went after the TWH people, or the crappy Dressage people. It was okay to bash them because they abuse their horses with soring and rolkur. BUT they use the pleasure horse industry as an exucse for their abuse. " If you think this is bad you should see what the WP trainers do" I have actually heard that comment from the lips of a TWH trainer at a show. Made me want to puke. Abuse does not excuse abuse.
Trojan,
"Do you think the spur jabbing feels good?"
Why do you think the horses are being JABBED? Spurs are used to have less leg movement, sure many of these horse have a spur stop- but you should know that many riders are not JABBING their horse- simple philosphy: LESS leg movement means better scores, better scores means a higher placing. WHY?? in the world would somebody JAB the horse? It would be obvious to the judge which in turn would cause them a deduction in points which goes against the whole point of using spurs in the first place.
lopnslow,
>by the way you should know that just because you have an ISP does not mean that you can press charges, you must first tell the person not to email you- everybody has freedom of speech.
By the way, the Patriot Act says that ANY threat that involves physical harm: whether verbal, written or electronic media, can be charged as a terroristic act against and individual, corporation or government body.
I don't even have to warn people not to contact me, they've already committed the crime by making the threat.
You sure take a lot of time to look up the your rights don't you? Are you really that worried? I see you don't even belong to an organization, but yet you have family that are on the boards?
Why do you pick at the quarter horses or paints??
How about the national show horses that get the blocks put on their feet, they dock their tails, and some have firecrackers set off under the horse to get the correct looking gait or have the right look in their eyes?" There are so many ways to abuse a horse, one breed is not abused more then the next, it's all over the board. anyway, what about the horses that get trained very young? Isn't that sbuse too? How about the race horses, how do you think there is such a thing as a 3 year old maiden race?? Obviousley they have been in training for quite some time to be able to fully run and win?
How about this: alot of horses get neglected and are half starved or forgotten about and dumped off at the auction barns, and usually picked up by the meat market. How They go for long trips in over packed trailers with no breaks for feed or water, after all their thinking is "why feed a horse that is going for slaughter? save money just keep driving"
You must be vegetarian if you only knew the things that happen at slaughter plants... geeze don't mean to get you going.
lopinslow said...
How about the national show horses that get the blocks put on their feet, they dock their tails, and some have firecrackers set off under the horse to get the correct looking gait or have the right look in their eyes?"
These things have been discussed here in one form or another.
How about this: alot of horses get neglected and are half starved or forgotten about and dumped off at the auction barns, and usually picked up by the meat market. How They go for long trips in over packed trailers with no breaks for feed or water, after all their thinking is "why feed a horse that is going for slaughter? save money just keep driving"
You must be vegetarian if you only knew the things that happen at slaughter plants... geeze don't mean to get you going.
Why is it that folks seem to always use other forms of abuse as a reason as to why it's okay to abuse? One can only assume that as long as it's not overt abuse or as bad as another disciplines form of abuse, it must be fine.
I've also heard the argument from big lick folks who say that humans using horses is abusive to them so therefore we are justified to pad them 6 inches artificially modify gaits.
This logic doesn't work for me.
Also, why must one be a vegetarian to be concerned about horse welfare? Again, the logic is faulty. That someone may have concerns about how a horse is used in service doesn't preclude meat consumption. You're making assumptions about why we have issues and extrapolating far beyond the point. It lends little credence to your argument.
lopnslow,
>You sure take a lot of time to look up the your rights don't you? Are you really that worried?
Not a bit. I didn't have to go look it up, the Patriot Act has been shoved down our throats by the big guys in DC that want to phone tap anyone they please. Don't you listen to the news?
>I see you don't even belong to an organization, but yet you have family that are on the boards?
Embarassing huh? Like having a relative in the White House right now has got to make some family members cringe.
>Why do you pick at the quarter horses or paints??
How about the national show horses that get the blocks put on their feet, they dock their tails, and some have firecrackers set off under the horse to get the correct looking gait or have the right look in their eyes?"
Go read the rest of the blog archives. I pick on everyone.
I grew up with stockhorses and it pisses me off to see what they've become. Makes no sense to force a horse into an unnatural frame, when the natural animal is so much prettier.
>You must be vegetarian if you only knew the things that happen at slaughter plants...
No, I eat meat. I know what happens at slaughter plants. The USDA is supposed to monitor it, but there aren't enough inspectors.
But, abuse in another area does not excuse abuse in the show ring. Showing is a vanity sport. To abuse something just to inflate your own ego is so ethically wrong.
Annie said:
Also, why must one be a vegetarian to be concerned about horse welfare? Again, the logic is faulty.
So are you saying it is okay to abuse other animals just not horses? Isn't abuse simply abuse regardless of the animal or situation? So it is okay to use meat for human consumption even though many times those animals go through a living hell before there actual death? Do you think the slaughter plant in the news a few months back that used fork lifts to pick up the cows was right? YOU SAID. "Why is it that folks seem to always use other forms of abuse as a reason as to why it's okay to abuse? " Well in the case of slaughtering humans that eat meat are using forms of abuse as a reason to live. OF COURSE! CLEARLY we all want to believe the animals are put down humanley but it's more than known that this is not the case.
lopinslow said...
Annie said:
Also, why must one be a vegetarian to be concerned about horse welfare? Again, the logic is faulty.
So are you saying it is okay to abuse other animals just not horses? Isn't abuse simply abuse regardless of the animal or situation? So it is okay to use meat for human consumption even though many times those animals go through a living hell before there actual death? Do you think the slaughter plant in the news a few months back that used fork lifts to pick up the cows was right? YOU SAID. "Why is it that folks seem to always use other forms of abuse as a reason as to why it's okay to abuse? " Well in the case of slaughtering humans that eat meat are using forms of abuse as a reason to live. OF COURSE! CLEARLY we all want to believe the animals are put down humanley but it's more than known that this is not the case.
I see, so no one is allowed to not like or express an opinion about what is happening to any animal anywhere if they eat meat. Is this correct?
Cool, I got it. Then any and all animal abuse is okay if done by meat eaters? Right?
This would also imply that only vegetarians can have or are allowed to express an opinion about any and all animal abuse.
So it's because WP persons are carnivores that makes it acceptable them to treat their horses as they do... okaaaaay... I think I get it.
trojan mouse said: But, abuse in another area does not excuse abuse in the show ring. Showing is a vanity sport. To abuse something just to inflate your own ego is so ethically wrong.
No, no trojan mouse, you've got it wrong. You can only abuse horses if you're a carnivore, because then you see you're already an abuser because you eat meat...
Wait, no, that's wrong you can't have an opinion as to what is abuse because you eat meat and like others who abuse animals for their hobbies (whether or not you are a carnivore), you're not allowed to have an opinion or express it with regards to any animal abuse.
I think that's it... in other words if you are not Mahatma Ghandi reincarnated or the Dali Lama, you can't have or express an opinion because, hey you are not perfect doncha know (but even these two examples were only men and therefore not perfect).
My husband is like this, I can't have a complaint about his behavior because I'm not perfect. It's a common issue for most people. And it's also a last ditch effort at being correct.
It's akin to when you were a kid and the final statement in an argument was "Oh yeah, well, my daddy is bigger than your daddy and he can beat your daddy up." If you can't make any points with your argument, you've got to diverge from the conversation and make it about something else. A lot of people do it.
Anniebannanie,
>It's akin to when you were a kid and the final statement in an argument was "Oh yeah, well, my daddy is bigger than your daddy and he can beat your daddy up." If you can't make any points with your argument, you've got to diverge from the conversation and make it about something else. A lot of people do it.
Like the moron that said it was obvious why I didn't have a husband or kids. Like she knew anything about my life. I suppose I should get a tattoo that says: I had a hysterectomy for medical reasons" on my forehead so everyone will know why I don't have kids. So all us childless, husbandless people are supposed to be bitter and negative and the married with spawn people can say what they want?
Quaint idea. Looks like tomorrow we can close down every women's shelter because no married people have any issues at all. And forget child abuse, it's as big a myth as drugging/tail blocking/jabbing/rein plucking/soring.
Doesn't exist because of all the "happily" married spawners out there would never commit abse. It's only us single childless people that do such things.
T J Maus
If it weren't for dumbasses like you two (annie and trojan) which have YET to prove that either of you have accomplished anything in the show ring what we all do with our time? I must ask why do you care anyways? You don't show you have already made that clear- why don't you mind your own business, you are saying that everybody in the WP world is an abuser, you are saying that YOUR way is the only way so how about you share what YOUR way is?? Post a picture, god only knows with as much knowledge as you have there must be a good picture of one of you on a horse?
The point of the vegetarian thing was to prove that you keep saying that "we" think abuse is okay because we compare it to something else. Your thinking does not add up to what you say, if abuse is everywhere why aren't you trying to step up and take care of the other million cases of abuse? Better yet, join PETA I am sure you can link them to many BNT's (since you know so many people...but yet nobody knows you.. hmm ironic huh?) that have done horrible acts on horses? Those people should be punished, the average horse show competitor should not. This is the life- these animals have been bred to move the way they do. You talk about how low these horses heads are- come on over take a look at most of the top horses in wp ring right now- MOST of them carry their head low even out the pasture. They have been bred to have long necks that come out to be able to correctly move while having a headset at a specific level. It isn't like somebody just went and grabbed a draft horse and all of the sudden expected a 3 beat lope and a low head. I understand you don't like the way it looks, but frankly, many of us don't like the way the other breeds look. By the way were you one of those girls that tried to show but got your ass kicked by the stock type horses so now you feel as if you need to do something to get back? You seem quite jealous/upset/bitchy at people you don't even know. Judge all you want- your tiny ideas in your small section of the world will NOT change one thing.
One question please:
your first point is :
"1) I love stock horses. I grew up with good stock horses and I appreciate good stock horses. What I do not like are good stock horses ruined by poor riding and stupid fads"
Please tell me in your opinion what a good stock horse is, better yet post a video or picture of your opinion!! This may clear a lot of problems up with everybody. Ohh and please elaborate on the "stupid fads"
trojan mouse said:
So all us childless, husbandless people are supposed to be bitter and negative and the married with spawn people can say what they want?
No again you are mistaken. Childless and husbandless women are not allowed to have or express opinions at all because they are negative and bitter. If they weren't negative and bitter they'd have hubbies and kiddies. De facto your opinions don't count or nominally shouldn't be expressed.
Childless spinsters should be seen and not heard. I think that is the point.
Lpnslow,
Glad to see you finally descended back to the level from whence you came. Trying to say that someone that doesn't do a sport isn't allowed to have an opinion is elitist and stupid. I'm not a super model but I can tell you when ugly clothes are being shown on the cat walk. I'm not a singer but I can hear well enough to known when someone else sucks at it. And for the record there are carded judges that have never sat on a horse. I personally know of an ApHC judge that has never shown a horse under saddle. He got his card based on showing halter and being a good old boy. I've at least shown, under saddle and in hand, and won classes.
>By the way were you one of those girls that tried to show but got your ass kicked by the stock type horses so now you feel as if you need to do something to get back? You seem quite jealous/upset/bitchy at people you don't even know. Judge all you want- your tiny ideas in your small section of the world will NOT change one thing.
No, I showed stock horses ( Apps and Qhs) and was high point quite a few times. I'm not remotely jealous of people that have to spend that much money and work that hard to look uncomfortable and guilty. I think this is what bothers all of you stump-trotters. I really am not impressed with your facade.
I can express my opinion, which is mirrored by a large section of the horse world, on WP or HUS as much as I want. You can't browbeat me into admitting all is right with the stock horse industry, because it isn't.
It's been hysterical watching all the mouth foaming and hand wringing on the PHF because it outlines how guilty everyone is.
You know the horses are being used in an incorrect manner. You know they are being forced to move unnaturally. You know the trainers use gimmicks and drugs. And you know the few that don't also get painted with the same brush because they support the industry. If you want people like me to go away then clean it up.
In watching some of these riders in the video, I can say this, a lot of them are way behind their horses!
I have been showing horses for a long time and had to get out of the Pleasure industry. Mainly because, the horses all move around the arena and they have a defeated look on their faces. I have not been back to the Congress in several years for that reason and I have quit training pleasure horses all together.
I will say that I have notice on the videos of this particular show, while the horse do not look defeated, and they have a nice steady forward movement. They are still very heavy on the forehand, and that is a result of the riders being behind in the hores gait. Not a major problem and easily fixed, if you so choose to do so.
IT does not matter how expensive or how well trained the horse, if the rider is not their, then, that can paint a lousy picture!
Wow, mouse are you really taking this as a personal attack?
Come on, if you're going to poke fun at people, quite maliciously I might add, you have to be willing to take some flack when its undeserved.
You were absolutely brutal in your condemnation, on split second photographs of people. Then when people took offence to that and commented, it was ok when it was just me - because it was just one or maybe two little nobodies. But then when a large group found out and wanted to defend itself - you go snarky?
Come on, you have be a bit more professional than that. If Tuffy & Mouse aren't the same person than am I right to believe Ann that you are in fact sisters?
The fact that you always seem to post within a few moments of each other, have similar writing styles, and the same hot-headedness are great cause for speculation....
Snaffles,
>The fact that you always seem to post within a few moments of each other, have similar writing styles, and the same hot-headedness are great cause for speculation....
Hmm, does that mean that you and the rest of the blabbers on PHF are all the same person, just using multiple IDs? You've all bitched about the same damn thing. You all make the same grammatical errors, you all whine in the same monotonous tone, must mean you're all the asme person.
Makes sense and gives me comfort to think there isn't an entire group that stupid, it's just one person.
And Ann is an idiot. She belongs to my policits yahoo lists and is a proponent of tail blocking and drugging. So if she's your shining example of the WP industry then Heaven help all of you.
I would just like to know why everyone is having such a shit fit that the way classes are pinned is so rediculous anymore? The only thing I can figure is you have sunken a ton of money into subscribing to the new lowered standards of equitation and horsemanship.
Seriously people. Have any of you seen a horse in the wild or one in pasture for that matter, that lopes along or shuffles I should say, so slowly that you can't tell if it is walking, jogging or loping? How many of the 'wild horses' have you seen shuffling along like that to get away from a predator? With it's nose to the ground the whole time? With a puffy full tail that never moves?
And for anyone to claim their horse cast more than someone elses car is just arrogant and ignorant. The horse doesn't care, the judges don't care (unless they had a hand in the sale) and neither does anyone else.
Your statement exclaims rich and stupid. Two traits that when combined, all these no talent hacks who call themselves 'trainers', love to see in their barn. Sad fact- it does not matter what you paid for the horse, if you cannot ride, you cannot ride.
Snaffles said:
Come on, you have be a bit more professional than that. If Tuffy & Mouse aren't the same person than am I right to believe Ann that you are in fact sisters?
The fact that you always seem to post within a few moments of each other, have similar writing styles, and the same hot-headedness are great cause for speculation....
----------------------------------
Here's a thought Snaffles, that you should be suggesting to anybody they be more professional is imbecilic. Considering the source.
PHF is a forum for loosers, indigents, and ass kissers. Wow, how come you excuses for human excrement are so obsessed. It is not humanly possible for Snaffles to have an independent thought that doesn't involve stalking, and rabid finger pointing. Really, really creepy. Not the first time for her either.
Now Snaffles why don't we talk about what's wrong in the WP show ring I'd certainly be more than happy to talk about training and technique instead of your simpering moronic finger pointing obsession.
Rabbit, thanks for having the cajones to come here and state your case in a sane, adult manner!! It's nice to work hard toward a personal goal.
All this personal sniping... I just had to scroll through it.
I must say that the HUS horses in the video DO look waaay downhill, noodly-legged, and as if they couldn't possibly see over a 3' fence, much less haul themselves over it.
Why is it that when there IS an over-fences class, they sort of let the horse look around? And then when they're back to a flat class, they make them hang their heads on a straight neck? And all this worrying about where the nose is in relation to "the vertical"?
It's just so unnatural, and the weird equitation doesn't lend itself to a realistic, cadenced, active way of going. It's so against everything I've ever been taught or read about real.... actual....AUTHENTIC huntseat equitation. I mean, I guess if it's ALL you've ever seen.... but in this age of instant information, people ought to be USING that info.
And bad equitation apologists: no, a pleasure class ISN'T really about equitation, but equitation IS a judging point in other classes because CORRECT riding should facilitate CORRECT movement.
Catty Pex,
>And bad equitation apologists: no, a pleasure class ISN'T really about equitation, but equitation IS a judging point in other classes because CORRECT riding should facilitate CORRECT movement.
Thank you, thank you, thank you!
You are entirely correct. Good riding helps facilitate good movement. Poor movement can also bring down good riding.
So is the lack of equitation in the pleasure ring the case of poor riding? Or is it the case of artificial movement creating a poor ride?
Trojan,
SO is all you have to say? Yeah, the image of my non-abused, content pleasure horse DOES ruin the image of this ridiculous blog.
And you're right, I didn't come over here and defend the dressage, TWH's, and other breeds you denounce because I'm not involved with those breeds/disciplines. DUH! But if I was, I sure would defend it if I felt it needed defending. Not ALL people who show pleasure abuse there horses. In fact, I would say the vast majority DON'T!
I haven't seen ONE horse being abused at an AQHA show. In fact, the only abuse I have ever seen at a show was by a hunter/jumper trainer! Again, that just ruins your image of this blog.
So please, stop assuming. You're making an ass out of yourself.
And you're right, nobody put a gun to my head and read your moronic prose about the numerous problems with the industry. I just come here to get a nice little laugh, but you keep saying the same things over and over and over with people proving you wrong in the process.
Yes there is abuse EVERYWHERE in the world, not just the horse world. But starting a blog bitching about it and making fun of people's non-perfect equitation isn't going to do ANYTHING to change it. Maybe it's time for you to stop bitching and actually DO something.
Hey TJM!
This is OT, but check this out!
http://www.domesticsale.com/Classifieds/181289.html
First off, the horse is 3 yo, so probably started too young. She is bred for an October foal (ugh!) AND (my gag counter pegged on this) is that how you ride a TWH horse?? She has the big extended/weighted shoes on, but the rider is all hunched over......huh?
Carrie Giannandrea
Dances with Horses
Formula One Farms
I *heart* you johnnierotten!!!!
Really, I wonder how many AQHA/APHA HUS people know what "cavaletti" means.
Y'know, I guess that's not a rhetorical question.
How many of you HUS stock horse people use them? I'd like to know that.
And I think some trotting over poles to lengthen stride, teach the horse to put its feet right, WHATEVER, would also benefit WP horses. ANY horse. I could even excuse fake tails at that point.
I use cavaletti quite often. I think most people do (the ones that do HUS that I know, anyways). Mine also go over fences *shock*! I use trotting grids and cavaletti as part of my own training routine off and on.
I honestly think before you attack and degrade something, maybe try it first? I'd love to have one of you come out and try one of my huntseaters. You might be surprised with how they ride. I talked a die-hard dressage acquaintance of mine to come try one of mine and she was amazed at how light and easy she was to ride, and how much drive and power she had when she moved. It's a lot of fun. These horses may not be your cup of tea, but if you watch them at liberty you can't deny this is what they were bred and born to do.
I guess I never saw the opurpose in degrading a discipline that may not be your style or to your liking. We all have preferences and opinions about what we like, but there isn't any reason to be nasty about the things that aren't our 'thing'. JMO...going back into hiding now *g*
Pmpkn wrote:
>I haven't seen ONE horse being abused at an AQHA show. In fact, the only abuse I have ever seen at a show was by a hunter/jumper trainer! Again, that just ruins your image of this blog.
Then you need to get ot more. I know of several cases of abuse that resulted in SUSPENSIONS for their trainers. One even had his professional horseman's card pulled because of it, and was reciprocally suspended from other horse associations.
Abuse happens. I've walked through the barns at QH shows and seen the horses with their heads tied too high ALL NIGHT LONG. The horses with their heads tied down ALL DAY LONG. The horses that you can tell are drugged because they have no pupil response.
I've seen people icing their horse's sides trying to get spur welts to go down.
If you're not seeing the abuse it's because you're not looking for it, or you're ignoring it.
Rabbit,
>I honestly think before you attack and degrade something, maybe try it first? I'd love to have one of you come out and try one of my huntseaters. You might be surprised with how they ride. I talked a die-hard dressage acquaintance of mine to come try one of mine and she was amazed at how light and easy she was to ride, and how much drive and power she had when she moved. It's a lot of fun. These horses may not be your cup of tea, but if you watch them at liberty you can't deny this is what they were bred and born to do.
I don't think anyone has degraded the horses.
I've had good pleasure horses and I used to spend a lot of my time creating good western riding and trail horses. I know how a good pleasure horse moves and what they can do. What I don't like is the way SOME trainers do things to create poor frames, convex backs and lack of impulsion. I think most pleasure horses are started way to young, and the plethora of hock injuries is bearing this out.
I don't think people criticize a section of the industry just for something to do, I think they do it because they want to see change and they're unhappy with the way things are.
I'd be more than happy to show in WP again, but I'm not going to compromise my horses legs, or mind to do so. Why browbeat her into one event, when I can get her to naturally do ten others?
Rabbit, Thanks for answering my non-rhetorical question, and thanks for actually jumping.
The thing is, I went to Congress in 2006 to watch a horse my dad's cousin had bred compete in Amateur Versatility, so I felt compelled to watch the WHOLE THING. I was really confused as to why the fairly correct movement and carriage I saw when the horses actually jumped did NOT carry over to the flat portion of the class. DUDE, it's a HUNT SEAT horse. The aim of the class is to have a horse that could jump a natural obstacle or three at any given moment. That was how I and countless others were taught, and it just FLOORS us, to this day, that the incorrect QH huntseat style that got popular in the mid 80s actually got worse and worse over the next 20 years.
Puppy paw reins, Kimberwicke bits, bizarre rider posture, and worst of all, that slooooooooooooooooow, lame (literally), head-hanging way of going really gets to those of us who were taught to aim for BRILLIANCE, IMPULSION, and CORRECTNESS as defined on (or at least approximating) the actual hunt field.
There's no doubt that some of those horses could REALLY move out and look pretty if they'd get off their forehands, engage their hindquarters, look around, and git-a-goin.
Thanks, Rabbit, for being a grown up when stating YOUR case!! :)
Check out my blog www.trialsofahorsegirl.blogspot.com
Cattypex- I have to agree with you. The horses would be much more appealing across the board, if they were allowed to move out properly.
As for the riders, well posting at a normal trot, or even a working trot becomes far easier as the horse helps lift you out of the saddle as they push off and forward.
KUDOS to Rabbit for showing that at least some of the AQHA, HUS people are doing it right, or at least trying to. And can be mature adults about discussing things too...
I too, have to scroll past all the sniping and spewing. Really folks! You all want to keep showing horses moving like that, fine by me. As for the 'put up or shut ups', aimed at Trojan Mouse, or the 'instead of bitching about it DO something...' whining that so many are doing, WELL SHE IS!
She is writing the blog, featuring photo's and pointing out what is wrong with each one! Talk about a DUH! moment. Egadds. When she posts anything new, you all get your panties in a wad, start throwing insults and threats and everything goes to shit. Grow up for dog sakes.
What is overabundant here (Arizona) is the jerk and jab method. Horses who are not built for the job at hand are entered into everything across the board.
They are overworked in the warmup arena, then shown. If the placing isn't what the rider expects- it is not uncommon for them to take the horse out into the warmup arena and either work them over or work them into the ground.
And WHAT is up with the horse being way behind the verticle yet riding with droopy reins? Where is the contact, the soft following hands or the sensitive almost invisible communication they provide when done correctly? I have yet to see a working hunter let alone a dressage horse, work on such droopy reins. In fact it is often the opposite in the dressage arena where rolkur is used or the riders tend you hang on their horses faces.
Where did the impulsion go? So many horses we see, move as if they are robotical in their efforts. They lack any form of drive, either from behind or in their mind. The don't look like they are having any fun at all, just plowing along trying not to get jabbed, poked, prodded or jerked on. How is that a pleasure class? Who is getting any pleasure out of that? Certainly not the horses. Certainly not the riders who are overfocused on every step and when to jab or jerk the horse again and whether or not the judge is watching...
We have also seen horses in the ring who were visibly LAME. SO lame you could spot it across the arena. Yet instead of being excused, they are often times rewarded with a ribbon. WTH????
On another high note for the industries- a frined of mine was doing a catalog photo shoot with a girl who was a high point rider of some sort within her breed group (I think it was APHA) for HUS. My friend asked her how high the fences are that they jump in competition?
"Oh, we don't jump. There is no jumping."
no jumping??
Then why is she riding HUS? Because the tack is cheaper? The breeches flatter her ass better than jeans do?
Maybe we all need to go back and re-read some classics like "Hunter Seat Equitation," "Happy Horsemanship," or my favorite, "School for Young Riders." "Centered Riding" is an AWESOME book.
Oops those should've been in italics, not quotes. :P
I'm glad that at least the peanut roller thing is getting penalized more these days, but the whole "headset", obsession with vertical line thing, on a slack rein TOTALLY misses the point of what a huntseat rider SHOULD be doing with her hands. They should be sympathetic, soft and yielding, like holding fragile squirmy baby birds. Those reins should be a 2-way telegraph with your horse's mouth.
As for pinning visibly LAME (not just OFF) horses, that's just as bad as rewarding Big Lick folks.
There is no crime in not jumping. I don't see why this is such a horrendous thing. Most western riders don't cut cattle or work the ranch (the origins of western riding). Most Tennessee Walker riders aren't overseeing their slaves on the plantation. Most dressage riders aren't going into battle. I don't see a problem with anyone enjoying their discipline as they like it. As long as the horses or humans aren't being harmed, what's the big deal if this specific discipline isn't ridden or exhibited exactly the same as a working hunter or as a dressage horse? It's a totally different discipline. Not wrong, just different.
While I definitely don't deny there are idiot riders and trainers out there in every discipline (every part of life has it's idiots, it seems!), I also don't believe in tarring an entire industry based on the bad apples. Those of us who DON'T jab our horses continuously with spurs (Corky would toss me to the ground and then stomp me to death for that offense!!!) nor yank on their mouths get a little offended when people complain about the entire discipline as a whole, rather than the few idiot individuals.
Not all of my horses have the talent or desire to jump. They all get tried over fences, some make it, some never go beyond crossrails. It's really not that big a deal, is it?
Please understand this: in my discipline (AQHA hunter under saddle), my horse is bred and built and trained to go on minimal contact, stretching her neck long and straight, stretching her legs for optimum stride while keeping a slow, steady tempo. It's not working hunter, it's not dressage, it's not western pleasure. Comparing it to any of those and saying it is wrong because it is different is just another way of trying to force everyone into one single mold.
I enjoy discussing my discipline and other disciplines with people who can keep an open mind and understand that while we all do things differently and ride differently, in the end we all love our horses and love what we are doing...I hope!
CP- Centered Riding is indeed a good book. I also found Common Sense Dressage insightful and helpful, but books only take us all so far... Being on the horse and DOING by riding, while being coached by someone with a good eye, solid techniques and tons of knowledge is always best, IMO at least. Having someone videotape you for a see for your self, kind of thing is also very helpful.
Rabbit- I can understand horses who have no talent for jumping, not jumping. That would just be cruel to them and setting yourself up for failure if not injuries too.
I can also understand not jumping the horses until they are mentally and physically ready for it. Flat classes until then- totally understandable and completely acceptable.
What I beleive the girl was stating was that her breed and the whole hunter division within it, offered no jumping classes. NONE. Seems kinda weird for a hunter division... ???
Then why is she riding HUS? Because the tack is cheaper? The breeches flatter her ass better than jeans do?
-------------------------------
That one is easy.
Because that rider is an ignorant fuck who can't make her horse go around properly on the flat, much less over a jump.
The reason that I don't jump is simple. I have a fear of going down over a fence again and it is so bad that I simply cannot commit to going over a fence. Not because I can't or my horse can't, I just don't enjoy it and avoid it like the plague. (much to my displeasure, I have agreed to show in the hack).
Sometimes there are other underlying reasons for not doing said thing.
"What I beleive the girl was stating was that her breed and the whole hunter division within it, offered no jumping classes. NONE. Seems kinda weird for a hunter division... ???"
Not sure what breed you are referring to? AQHA, APHA, ApHC all offer a full slate of working hunter, jumping, eq over fences, etc.
Jumping isn't the end all-be all to riding English.
Hi Rabbit,
You seem to be one of the GOOD ones in HUS. Keep it up!!!
But... I still have a huge, HUGE problem with "hunters" moving like that. If you ever go to a hunter show, you'll see what I mean. Yes, you will see some crazy ass horses & riders, just as you'll see bad methods here and there at ANY show, but you'll ALSO see horses MOVING OUT and looking where they're going, even in a flat class.
As if they COULD jump. And I will have to agree to disagree with you, but an AQHA/APHA HUS class consists of horses who DO NOT move like they COULD jump if a log or some barrels suddenly materialized in the middle of the ring.
That's my entire beef with that whole scene. Oh, and all of the shortcut "training methods" that a lot of unscrupulous people use.
I'm not saying that EVERYbody's evil, it's just a shame that there are those people.
catty, I agree with you. I showed hunters in the past, before I got into diehard AQHA showing. I still go to a show every now and then, it's good to keep up with both sides of the hunt seat coin, so to speak. Just as I see crappy, idiot trainers and riders at the QH shows, I also see them at the USEF shows. I also see them at the Arabian shows, the dressage shows (LOTS of them at the local dressage shows...yikes!), etc.
One of my nicest hunters (as in over-fences) was a super HUS horse. When you pointed him at a working hunter course, he could lift up and go. Last I heard he was kicking butt at east coast hunter shows. He was versatile enough to be able to show in a low, level, flat frame and also a more elevated traditional hunter frame. There are a lot of horses showing both at the QH shows still, they are the best example of breed versatility.
I guess what I don't understand is why anyone would have a 'beef' with the way something is done. If it isn't hurting the horse or rider, why does it matter if a certain group of horses do things a certain way that is different from what you are used to?
Catty, I take it you ride over fences? Do you ride with someone in Richmond? I am in dire need to further my education over fences. I am at a point in my life where I feel my abilities in that area have stagnated and I really need to get some better education than what i've had up till this point.
Well, I am... holy crap, I will be 39 next month! I am a middle aged "re-rider" who finally found a decent affordable venue that fits my schedule.
I used to ride pretty much every minute that I could, back when I had a horse!!!
I guess my whole giant beef with the AQHA HUS thing is that it is INCORRECT. Really, this low frame downhill thing has only been around for 25 years or so. It represents a devolution of effective equitation. ("forward seat" jumping hasn't been around for much more than a century: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_Federico_Caprilli )
By the way, your horse in the YouTube video is pretty :)
I just have a huge problem with this way of going being associated with real Hunters, aka Horses Who Move Like They're Going To Jump, and I also have a problem with a LOT of riders who constantly poke with spurs and jiggle their loose reins, instead of simply maintaining light contact and effective leg aids.
(Oh and as a disclaimer, I haven't jumped in YEARS, but I did get a solid hunt seat education as a young'un. I ride at the college where I work, and last semester ended up doing ground poles, so maybe I'll get over some baby 18" things by Christmas.)
(I can also picture myself getting the giggles and not being able to do it)
Rabbit- I am not sure which breed assoc, or circuit the girl was refering to as my friend was the one who spoke to her. My friend however, is very involved with sport horses, dressage, hunters etc. She was floored when the girl said there was no jumping classes offered.
It just seemed weird to both of us, that a HUS division would not include any O/F classes. It doesn't make a whole bunch of sense that way... For the horses who are shown in that division, whether or not they actually jump, they should at least look like they can.
I agree that jumping isn't the be all end all to riding. We had a dressage client who felt dressage was everything and nothing else was 'worthy'. That narrow mindedness is annoying to everyone else around you at best, and sort of limits your enjoyment of horses alltogether.
I forgot to coment on the WP/working cows last night. Pregnancy hormones and paint fumes aren't a good combo when thinking is required or involved. :(
I can understand that not all western horses work cows. Even horses bred from generations of 'cow horses', may not have a lick of sense, ability or desire when it comes to cows. WP did stem from the cowboys and their working horses, but my biggest issue with WP as we know it today, is that it is so far removed from what a true 'western pleasure horse' is.
How many cowboys would have gotten anything done, jogging or loping along like that, while checking fence lines or riding out to check grazing lands, herds or anything else? I too, like an easy going, ground covering jog that won't jar every bone in my body, or a casual lope rather than my horse racing off at top speed, but what is seen in the ring and often placed is quite the extreme opposite. The horse should cover some ground, not shuffle along doing no more than going up and down in place like a carousel mount, or a quarter machine in front of the drugstore.
Huntseat rider- I get your fear issue. Believe me I do! My mare will jump 4'. I feel absolutely no need to go that high. She can do it, I'm the one who is chicken shit about it. I haven't come off over a fence, but I know it will happen someday... and I am in NOOOOOOO way looking forward to it, when it does. When your horse is already taller than you are, (which my mare is and I am 5'2) why add the extra height in there to fall from?
I have no problems going over the 2' & 3' rails and fences, just gotta trust in my horse and let her go. Crazy fact of it is, I can come off going over even a smaller jump and land wrong, getting just as hurt, if not more, in the whole process. It's not the falling part that hurts- it's hitting the ground! And I am with you on not wanting to do that any time soon, from any gait, fences involved or not.
Cut n Jump-
"Have any of you seen a horse in the wild or one in pasture for that matter, that lopes along or shuffles I should say, so slowly that you can't tell if it is walking, jogging or loping? How many of the 'wild horses' have you seen shuffling along like that to get away from a predator?"
Have any of those horses actually been bred to move this way? It isn't like just grabbing any horse and making it move the way the western pleasure horse does, these horses are bred and raised and TRAINED to do so. You obviousley cannot take a WILD HORSE off of the range and make it do these things, you also couldnt take a wild horse and expect it to survive being stalled up and pampered over...clearly these horses are not FROM the wild and MADE to do certain things.
lopinslow,
I've heard that argument a LOT about many different equestrian pursuits.
I don't like it.
Just like I don't like tailset thingies on saddlebreds, rolkur in dressage, crazy saddleseat monsters, fatass halter horses, or jawcracking bits on cross country horses.
Sure, we all do "unnatural" things with show horses, but sometimes folks just go too far.
Lopinslow-
Have any of those horses actually been bred to move this way?
Are you asking about the wild horses or any other horse in particular? There certainly are breeders who breed for what they call ‘natural, slow, WP movement’, which to me is an oxymoron at it’s finest.
It isn't like just grabbing any horse and making it move the way the western pleasure horse does, these horses are bred and raised and TRAINED to do so.
You kinda answered your own question there didn’t you?
>> Have any of those horses actually been bred to move this way?<<
>>, these horses are bred and raised and TRAINED to do so.<<
You cetainly can take just about any horse and ask it to move like a WP horse does. Make it move that way, not so much. If you know how to ask you can get most any result you wish. Even moving like a western pleasure horse. Shuffling, four beating, head hanging, single foot placement at the walk, you name it.
You obviously cannot take a WILD HORSE off of the range and make it do these things, you also couldnt take a wild horse and expect it to survive being stalled up and pampered over...
Um, yeah. Ya can. You can certainly take a wild horse off the range and keep it in a stall as well as start it under saddle and train it to do all sorts of things- WP, barrel race, reining, cutting, mounted shooting, jumping, dressage- whatever you want, if you are talented enough to do so... It might take a bit longer as there will need to be some level of trust built up before you can do too much, but people do it all the time. Some of these horses actually excel at their given sport, beyond their registered counterparts. Did you miss that memo?
Many BLM horses started out on the range, are rounded up, sold off for $125 to the first taker and are most times actually easier to deal with than a stall raised, pampered, papered, 1000 pound brat. The wild horses haven't been mishandled, coddled and fussed over or taught any bad habits. They are a clean slate. Whatever they learn- good or bad- is what you teach them.
clearly these horses are not FROM the wild and MADE to do certain things.
Gee Really? I would hope they aren't as they wouldn't last long out there up against any predator. Let alone lacking their long since gone instincts of finding water and shelter from the elements.
As far as making a horse do something, well, feel free to come on over and just try making any of our horses do anything. They are all well trained and any one of them will quickly remind you how little and insignificant a human really is. Ask them to do something, they will be more than happy to oblige you and carry out the request, but not any more than has been asked for. Ask in a crappy manner, they will perform in a crappy manner. You get what you ask for with them.
And why would anyone breed a horse to shuffle along at a snails pace anyways? Most people who ride for pleasure, want to get where they are going. A smooth comfortable gait while doing so is preferred, but moving in place or shuffling along at anything over a walk and hell, you might as well carry the horse, as you will both get there faster.
Most of the horses I have seen in the stock horse classes, no more resemble the horses in their pedigreed past than a Yorkie looks like a St. Bernard.
The horses of the past, like in the Legends series of books, were built to work. The cowboys needed a good using horse that would stay sound and hold up for the task at hand- working their stock. The horses present in the show ring today, look no more like that, than any of us here do. They may no longer have to earn their keep working livestock, but by packing us around and doing as is our bidding, they certainly still do.
Lopinslow,
>Have any of those horses actually been bred to move this way? It isn't like just grabbing any horse and making it move the way the western pleasure horse does, these horses are bred and raised and TRAINED to do so.
Here's the question: Why are they bred to move that way, and why breed for a conformation that precludes the horse from doing a lot of other events?
While we are on the topic of english 'stock' horses, who the hell came up with the idea that a stock breed horse should be shown as an 'english' horse in the first place?
Where was the cowboy who said "Hey, lets put on our fancy goin' to town britches and tall boots and slap one of those funny leetle, saddles on old Hank or Buster out there and send him over some jumps."
Whatever happened to buying a breed of horse suited for the job? Again the stock horse breeds we see in the ring today no more resemble the horses of their past than any of us do.
lopinslow
Have any of those horses actually been bred to move this way? It isn't like just grabbing any horse and making it move the way the western pleasure horse does, these horses are bred and raised and TRAINED to do so. You obviousley cannot take a WILD HORSE off of the range and make it do these things, you also couldnt take a wild horse and expect it to survive being stalled up and pampered over...clearly these horses are not FROM the wild and MADE to do certain things.
_____________________________
Ya know what Lopinslow....
I came from good stock. My dad was a doctor, my grandfather was a doctor, my great grandfather was a doctor..Hell you might even say I was bred to be a doctor..But it does not mean I would like it. Infact I would hate being shut up in an office where I can look outside butnot go outside. I have no patience for patients! And I have no patience for the brand of stupidity that you are putting on this blog.
You watch these pleasure horses and they donot look happy, especialy when the rider keeps jerking the shit out of em and jabbing them with spurs.
While I agree that some there may be some truth to the genetics thoery. I do not think that genetics is the reason that they have pleasure horses. Yhe unfortunate thing with the genetics thoery is that it doesnot hold a lot of water. We have horses that we bred for cutting, they have been bred to certain stallions that have done well in cutting as well as certain mares. They have phenominal pedigrees with some of the best cutters in the world, yet they have no desire to be cutters.
And how much do you know about breeding, afterall how much semen have you shipped?
Yeesh, all of those Youtube videos you posted are terrible to watch, but the second one is just ghastly. No idea why anyone would want to look like that.
Hey, where IS this Pleasure Horse Forum anyway?
JohnnieRotten I am a Libra too, for the record. I blame my wishy washyness on that.
I am also a Libra, all of our birthdays are fast approaching! But of course I am one of those awful HUS riders, so I don't count *g*
Hey, Rabbit, I might not agree with you 100% but I bet we could have a drink together and have fun.
; )
I just want the horses to move right, and riders to ride right, and the world to run to MY standard.
Is that too much to ask?!?!?!?!!
Seriuosly, I just want quarter horses to stay awesome, and not get bred for post legs, eensy feet & stuff. I'd definitely look at QH's for my own child when she's old enough, because I've seen so many really KIND ones. Heck, I HAD one. Wish I still had her.
And my kid WILL keep her thumbs up when she rides......
LOL no HUS breeders that I know want post legs or tiny feet. Sometimes ya get what ya get though LOL! I think I got the perfect build in the last baby I bred, the right cocktail mix of genes.
Yep, you and I could get together for drinks and probably not kill each other! It is nice to have a civilized debate/discussion with someone. I am trying hard to ignore the other posts that are just rude and mean without any substance. Exerting self-control is making me strong, I think :-]
And dammit, I try to keep my thumbs up when I ride. I usually do pretty good. the puppy paws thing is a constant struggle that I work on. Every time I think I am doing good, I catch it on a video and want to schmack myself.
Since you are a libra also, when IS your birthday? We could totally go for drinks and celebrate another crappy birthday LOL!
HAHA my birthday is 10/22 so we often do Congress for my b-day!
I have looked at the same damn Australian duster coat in the same damn booth since 1985. And every year I talk myself out of it....
This is more my cup of tea in a hunt seat horse, though of course a little on the STRONG side: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Je0ky2lPOnU
That's how my mare moved, even on the flat.
We Libras must stick together. And defend the world from Fucktards and Asshats..We shall raise a pint for all!
My Birthday is Sept 30th.
-----------------------------
Cattypex
JohnnieRotten I am a Libra too, for the record. I blame my wishy washyness on that.
I blame my wishy washyness on too much Guiness and a few too many hits of the great green herb!
Calling Dr. Green.... *sigh* These days I stick to the Guinness, or red red wine, or even crap beer because my friend's husband works for Miller/Coors.
I used to swill Jameson like Iced Tea. I was a TOTAL studwoman. I drank a Greek dude under the table with Ouzo once.
Then I grew up & stuff.
Hey, maybe safely carrying drunktards should be part of a trail class!! Didn't they used to put cages of live bears or mountain lions in trail classes? Teeter-totters? Do they still do that? They don't in 4-H.....
Cattypex
I used to swill Jameson like Iced Tea. I was a TOTAL studwoman. I drank a Greek dude under the table with Ouzo once.
++++++++++++++++++
We love Jamesons, we have it in our coffee on Sunday Mornings. That is our little treat to ourselves.
Other than that it is beer. Not so much Guiness in the summer here, but I love Bass and any of the amber beers. We are beer snobs! We also love the Beligan Blue Moon and Stella Artois. But on a really hot day there is nothing like a Modelo Especial or a Pacifico. Shit, now I am thirsty.
I hate to have a beer in front of CNJ, I feel so guilty,because I made her this way. But the guilt only lasts so long.
We also like Whalers cocnut rum in sprite with a lime on a hot day!MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!
Leave it to a man to forget the best beer of all of them- Asahi Select. With sushi of course...
Yuuuuuummmmmmmmmm!
Jamesons or Bushmill's in the coffee at horse shows is always good to keep everything on an even keel.
Catty pex- I learned to drink with the boys. Better down it and move on the the next if you want to get more than one beer out of the 12 pack you just bought... Living with Ned the Wino (before JR) makes drinking at 7 am acceptable too!
Oh man, you guys are getting way beyond my little sheltered world!
I don't even recognize have the liquers you're talking about!
http://www.thehorsediary.net/
Me neither! I have such a low tolerance for alcohol, it ain't pretty when I drink.
My birthday is Sept. 26...ugh.
Catty I bought one of those aussie duster coats back in 1990. I ended up selling on bay a few years ago. It was just so dang heavy and hot, it was like wearing a steam bath that weighed 1,000 pounds.
Yah, I thought a duster coat would be cool, but I'm 5'2" and round, so it looks rather silly on me. Glad I didn't get one, esp. if they make you hot and sweaty (in a bad way). If you have an indoor arena, you really don't NEED one.
Negra Modelo is my favorite Mexican beer. The guys at the Mexican restaurant know this.
Too bad you guys live faaaar away! We are party soulmates!!! mmmm, SUSHI. CNJ - hope the buns in the oven are perking right along. :)
I didn't even know I was preggers till I was almost 20 weeks.... I named her Lena, though she's not from cutting horse lines. :P Sometimes I call her Smart Little Lena and inwardly laugh my ass off, since no one in my family would understand.
WHERE is this Pleasure Horse Forum????
Has Johnnie Rotten torn it all up yet?
Rabbit, thumbs up, heels down, & open up your chest! ; )
I hate it when a 19 year old riding instructor makes you do two point w/o stirrups. Cruel girls.
The Pleasure Horse Forum is a forum for professionals and non-professionals in the stock horse world. I hesitate posting a link here because I don't think it's fair to send anti-pleasure and stock horse people over there just to pick them apart.
My fave eq exercise is the up-up-sit, and then doing THAT without stirrups. It makes me really push my strength to it's limit and I also have to concentrate hard to keep the right rhythm going...it's so weird to be posting every other set on the 'wrong' diagonal. My older mare (before she was bred) was my eq mount and I would make her trot endless circles around the arena while I flopped around and struggled without stirrups. Luckily she doesn't hold a grudge for all that I put her through LOL!
Catty are you going to Congress this year for your birthday?
Tuffy- Bushmills and Jamesons are Irish whiskeys*. Very smooth in flavor and mix well with coffee. Most people like Baileys or St. Brendons Irish Creme in coffee and Kaluha is also good. Depends on personal taste.
*I know I may get slammed for that because there is a difference between whiskey and whisky, and I can't remember what it is. Something about where it is made?
Beer-
Blue Moon is a Belgian wheat ale. Light in flavor and really good with a slice of orange in it. They also offer 'seasonal' flavors.
Asahi is a Japanese beer. The 'Select' is really good and goes down too easily when it is cold. Orion and Asahi are also good.
Mexican beers can be really good too Madello, Madello Especial, Dos XX, Pacifico and my two favorites Sol and Caguama. The Caguama is I believe a San Salvadorian beer.
Everything in moderation... Keeps us all from becoming too drunk and getting way out of hand.
If you have one or two every now and then, we won't tell. LOL! Not like any of us would mind. Once in a while though, a good cold beer with food, just goes so nicely and like wine, compliments the flavors of the food.
I like the lighter flavored beers, while JR also likes Bass, Guinness, Fat Tire and several other stonger, bolder flavored ales.
Ever have any questions, ask the bartenders at the restaraunt what they advise. Chances are they have tasted just about everything they stock and can help you find something you like that will go well with the food you are ordering. Or peruse the beer aisle at the local store and just take a peek at what they have. They have something to suit just about every taste and often you can buy one bottle to try. Not a bad way to test the waters and find one you like...
Now if you want to get into the foo-foo-yummy drinks, email me... We have come up with some mighty tasty mixtures in our kitchen! Not all of them require a blender either...
Valuable Life Lesson: DO NOT make Tequila Sunrises with Tang, no matter how broke you are. Just don't.
I guess I was just curious about the Pleasure Horse forum because I'm wondering what the pros have to say. The vast majority of AQHA WP horses I see DO look sad and defeated, and non-horse people even pick up on it.
I'm hoping that the AQHA gets even more strict with the whole "headset" thing, and gets tough on spur abuse and other topics talked to death on here.
These things NEED to be brought to light.
As long as horses aren't abused, then I guess to each his own, but when SO MANY (not all, I know I know, but enough) winning trainers block tails, tie up heads, lunge to death, etc., to achieve such an extreme look, it's a bad situation.
You CAN have a "soft" horse without having a defeated horse. You CAN have natural, beautiful, rideable smooth movement that isn't sloooooooooow. You CAN have a naturally low-slung frame without the horse's nose dragging in the dirt. It takes time, talent and real work, and too many WINNING trainers don't go there, and too many owners don't want to wait.
(You CAN has cheezburgers too! Sheesh.)
I have some videos of really beautiful, natural WP horses but they are horses owned by friends of mine so I don't want to post them here.
The whole tail-blocking thing is an icky thing, I think the industry is divided about 50/50 on that.
I can't speak a whole lot for WP since I don't do that event anymore, haven't for years. I don't want people equating a level headset with being 'defeated'. I have photos of my HUS horse at age 1, age 2, and then under saddle...she is travelling at a trot in exactly the same frame in each shot. That's her way of going, the rider just refines it and directs it.
Of course, there are always those who take it to the extreme. Those poeple suck!
This looks pretty good:
http://www.maintzquarterhorses.com/images/dewst05.jpg
CattyPex wrote:
>Valuable Life Lesson: DO NOT make Tequila Sunrises with Tang, no matter how broke you are. Just don't.
Less intense but just as valuable lesson: Do not drink a pepsi with a methol cough drop in your mouth. It tastes exactly like tidy bowl smells.
>I guess I was just curious about the Pleasure Horse forum because I'm wondering what the pros have to say.
Some serious harpies there.
>The vast majority of AQHA WP horses I see DO look sad and defeated, and non-horse people even pick up on it.
I agree. And this is what ANY equine industry MUST address. If the general public is saying: This looks terrible. Then fix it. Don't try to excuse. Don't call the people complaining idiots and tell them they don't understand. They do understand: the horse LOOKS miserable.
>I'm hoping that the AQHA gets even more strict with the whole "headset" thing, and gets tough on spur abuse and other topics talked to death on here.
I bust people for spur stopping every time I judge. I simply don't allow it. I also bust them for constant tugging on the reins. To me it shows that the horse isn't a pleasure to ride.
>>As long as horses aren't abused, then I guess to each his own, but when SO MANY (not all, I know I know, but enough) winning trainers block tails, tie up heads, lunge to death, etc., to achieve such an extreme look, it's a bad situation.
>>You CAN have a "soft" horse without having a defeated horse. You CAN have natural, beautiful, rideable smooth movement that isn't sloooooooooow. You CAN have a naturally low-slung frame without the horse's nose dragging in the dirt. It takes time, talent and real work, and too many WINNING trainers don't go there, and too many owners don't want to wait.
You're exactly right. A trainer can create a soft, good moving, well trained horse without all the spur jabbing, face picking, drugs and tail blocking. And as long as the good trainers do not take a stand against the bad trainers and kick their butts out of the industry then the public perception will remain that WP is abusive and cruel.
http://thehorsediary.net/ (updated 9-9-2008)
CattyPex-
>>You CAN have a "soft" horse without having a defeated horse. You CAN have natural, beautiful, rideable smooth movement that isn't sloooooooooow. You CAN have a naturally low-slung frame without the horse's nose dragging in the dirt. It takes time, talent and real work, and too many WINNING trainers don't go there, and too many owners don't want to wait.<<
TuffyHorse-
>>You're exactly right. A trainer can create a soft, good moving, well trained horse without all the spur jabbing, face picking, drugs and tail blocking. <<
Lets not forget ladies, that a horse trained without all the jerking and jabbing will move forward how? With Confindence! They will have that relaxed and free flowing movement and go forward with confidence that they are not going to have their face jerked on or otherwise ripped off, any given stride.
Without all the spur poking and jabbing they also move Willingly off your leg. Used no more than necessary they will wait for it and respond when pressure is applied and as long as the pressure remains. Take the pressure away and let the horse go forward, doing what you asked of them.
It is amazing how little time doing it right really takes. But as Cattypex said, people don't want to wait, even if it produces far better, longer lasting results.
CutnJump,
>Lets not forget ladies, that a horse trained without all the jerking and jabbing will move forward how? With Confindence! They will have that relaxed and free flowing movement and go forward with confidence that they are not going to have their face jerked on or otherwise ripped off, any given stride.
THAT is what is missing from the stock horse breed showring: CONFIDENCE.
I love to see a horse that is confident and full of himself, but still controlled and moving lightly. It so rarely happens at horse shows.
I think the most I've seen it was at judging mini shows. The little guys were just exuding personality, but with no malice toward their handlers.
It was a treat to see them.
Tuffy-
THAT is what is missing from the stock horse breed showring: CONFIDENCE.
I love to see a horse that is confident and full of himself, but still controlled and moving lightly. It so rarely happens at horse shows.
They have an entirely different 'air' and expression about them don't they? They are happy in their work and excell accordingly under judges who have a clue. They actually look like they are a pleasure to ride! I know... What a concept?
Well it looks like we'll be heading to Congress on 10/11 ... hope to get tix for freestyle reining if my stupid client pays me for a freelance job!!!!
I see there's a variety of classes that day. I'll peek in and see how they go. I'm hoping the hunt seat horses look better this year.
I hope, every year.
At any rate I'll go shopping!!!!! and gawk at the beautiful tack....
So I agree 100% about the QH pleasure stuff. At my farm at home we've got a barn full of AMAZING western pleasure pinto/quarter horses. They do move goofy, yes (well, I'm an arab person so they move goofy to my standards) but their riders rarely mess with their faces, they uses their spurs for "spur stops" (don't know enough about the QH industry to know what that is) I used to own an amazing QH who, would, at times need to be reminded of the bit.
However, I would never just jab at him with the bit AND my leg. This DOES need to be addressed. People who are offended, don't read it, it's that simple
sds:
>All it takes is some jealous wanna-be that can't stand the fact that my horse cost more than their car to start a blog proclaiming their expertise in everything from western pleasure to walking horses to dressage and hunter under saddle and saying my horse sucks because they don't have her.
You're horse was over $20,000 wow, that must be some horse. For that kind of money you shouldn't have to ever touch its mouth or jab at it with a spur, it should know voice commands and where to keep is head
I don't think I'd ever spend $20,000 on a horse, even if I had it!!!
It's ever-so-much more fun picking up a bargain and finishing it yourself.
My luck would be that of someone we knew- $85,000 for a paint gelding.
Three months later he dropped dead on the walker from heart failure. He was a fairly young horse too.
Or another local family- bought a horse, owned it a week. Brought it home and while turned out in the arena, the horse got to running around playing. He misjudged the fence ran into a post and broke his neck. Died instantly. He was home less than 24 hours.
Damn! Horses can die so weirdly.
How about that person quoted on Fugly, who had their horses stolen and killed in a horse tripping thing???
Trojan Mouse,
You seem to love critiquing and criticizing, don't you? Why not give the rest of us that same joy? I know I'd like to see some pictures or videos of you riding, since you obviously are so knowledgeable and know exactly what is right. I'd like to see how somebody that knows so much does it.
You're the kind of person that disgusts me. You sit and rip apart other people, disciplines, and practices yet you're too self-righteous to offer up some pictures/videos of yourself since you obviously do everything the right way and are all-knowing.
Coward - the perfect word to describe you. :)
Post a Comment