Lets take this blog to the next level

If you have a photo of crappy show riding, know of a jerkwad trainer or judge, or someone in the show world that is an abusive piece of shit then send the info to me. This blog is not anti-showing, it's anti-abuse. So there is no truth to the claims from the TWH, ASB, western pleasure and dressage zombies that I'm trying to shut showing down. Instead I'm trying to make showing more honest and to get abusive practices out of the showring! Email me at shameinthehorseshowring@gmail.com



I have a request for my readers: If you have successfully rehabbed a show horse, or gotten a rescue and taken it on to a show career then let me know, I'd love to feature you here!






Monday, September 1, 2008

Western Drecquitation

I’m back to bitching about equitation. I grew up riding on a military base, with some seriously equitation ingrained instructors. Nothing like an old cavalry man to make you keep your heels down. It used to be that equitation was based on a balanced seat. You could run a plumb from the rider’s ear to their shoulder to their hip to their heel. Then you could run a line from the rider’s elbow to the wrist to the horse’s bit. These should be straight lines, not ones that look like the peaks and valleys on a heart monitor.

We stopped by a local show this weekend and the kids in it ride better than some of the industries top trainers. Do you think I’m kidding? Then look at the following examples and tell me I’m wrong. I’ve black barred the horses’ faces so they won’t suffer further embarrassment from being ridden by such poor trainers.


Here we’ve got a rather prominent WP trainer. For some reason his arm is behind the line from his ear, shoulder, hip, heel. His arm is straight to the horse’s bit, but his elbow is too far forward. According to AQHA rules the horse’s head is too low. Page 210 of the AQHA handbook states: (l) Faults that will be cause for disqualification, except in novice amateur or novice youth classes, which shall be faults scored according to severity: (1) Head carried too low (tip of ear below the withers consistently)
(2) Overflexing or straining neck in head carriage so the nose is carried behind the vertical consistently.
So why is this style placed so consistently? It looks like SHIT!


Here’s another winner:
Terrible lines, horse’s head too low, not using its rear end, crappy hands. He shouldn’t be able to win tenth in a class of nine.
Why is this shoddy riding excused? Even if every horse in the ring looked this way the judges can surely refuse to place the shitty riding.








Here’s another jewel: This guy is famous for the “lean back” style, although this isn’t the worst picture of it I’ve seen. This is another “top” trainer that looks like SHIT. What is with the hands? What is with the forward foot? Horse’s head is too low, face out of vertical and he’s got that nasty butt slump that tells us he’s not using his rear to move, he’s just skating along like a waterbug. My niece rides better than this and she’s just a kid.
I love this one; there simply aren’t enough words to say how wrong it is:



I love this one; there simply aren’t enough words to say how wrong it is:Head too low, nose out of vertical, poor body lines, slump butt and the horse’s ears are pinned. He’s embarrassed, probably ashamed too. He’s probably hoping he could get into a respectable line of work like carting Las Vegas prostitutes around, or hauling drugs across the border.






This one doesn’t bother me as much, in fact she’s doing a few things right, so the judge’s probably didn’t place her.
Her position is better than the others, even though her leg is still too far forward. Her horse is close to vertical, but he is happier looking and her reins are almost where they need to be. The horse’s butt is rounded and he doesn’t look as slumpy tense. But if this is the best we have in the ring then the entire western pleasure industry is in trouble.


Strangely enough, when I go outside of the stock horse industry I find all kinds of good riding and properly trained horses. This Morgan is striking, balanced and correctly on the bit. His eye is almost level with his withers, his face is vertical, he’s rounded and ready to work off his rear. I didn't cover his eye because he has no reason to be ashamed of his rider. He looks relaxed and happy. Her body lines are nice and she’s got her rein hand properly squared for using a rommal rein. Why can’t QH people ride like this? Is it too much to ask that they sit upright and properly aligned? Is it too much to ask that the horse is lively, alert, balanced and on the bit? I can go to any Morgan, ASB and Arabian western show and see better turn outs, better riding and happier horses in the western classes than you can at any stock horse show. It shouldn’t be this way! When will AQHA, APHA and ApHC actually require equitation and collection from their riders? What we're seeing is dreck, dreck and more dreck!

33 comments:

Shadow Rider said...

Nicely done. I esp. like the lines drawn so we can clearly see the faults!
Kudos!

Secret said...

I once snarked a rider for not having her heels down (and by extension, having them UP), and was barraged by comments saying how it's not ergonomically correct to force your heels down, and you shouldn't if you don't want to, and blah blah blah basically, if I don't want to do it I don't have to and you can't make me.

And here I was, thinking that when I advanced as a rider and couldn't wear spurs with heels up, that was a good thing.

robyn said...

I like how you've re-done the page--looks nice! I hope you'll post more often--I really enjoy your blog, TM.

I've always thought the western pleasure stuff looks awful. And I'd thought that the neck was supposed to not be below the withers according to show rules. But in EVERY show photo ad you see in any given magazine, without fail, the neck is below the withers. Every damn time. Why can't the riders/trainers see how ugly this is?!

Trojan Mouse said...

Robyn,

Thanks for the compliment. My sister is horking on me about the purple but I like it.

I really don't know why trainers don't see their own faults. The problem is that our trainers are also our judges and they place people that ride just as crappy as they do.


TJM

cattypex said...

Something about the whole stock horse milieu just LOVES clunky blocky inelegance... like stacked jeans, chunky boots, and worst of all, the way they show their horses. There's just nothing... BEAUTIFUL about it.

A weird parallel: the crazy popularity of the QH (and their ilk) and then western pleasure and "Wenglish" kind of reminds me of how the 1950s prosperity and baby boom era is responsible for a LOT of generic, ugly houses, whereas just about anything older than that aspires to tasteful quality.

I still think that a lot of rich NASCAR fan horse newbies (you know what I mean) don't believe a trainer is trainin' unless a whole bunch of equipment and fiddle faddle is going on.

Nadia said...

I'm sorry, but have you seen the TRAINERS themselves ride in the warm up pens. SERIOUSLY! If THEY can't keep their heels down and sit properly how can they train their clients to?!?!

THINK ABOUT IT??!!??!!

I sat for hours IN AMAZEMENT at the Reichert watching those guys ride. I just thought "equitate - equitate - equitate". I wanted to walk up to SEVERAL of them and say that, but I kept my mouth shut.

Actually my current trainer kept it shut for me - he threatened me. *grin*

Carrie Giannandrea said...

TJM -

I like the new format AND the color!!

From my point of view, as a rider who rides and shows both disciplines, I personally think the stock horse judge/trainers are trying to "create" something new and distinctive for their discipline. I don't like it and never will. I can't see how you can have any communication through your seat with the horse from a laid back chair position. If I were to sit back with my weight over the back of my pelvis bones, my horse would think we need to stop and backup! If my legs were that far forward at his shoulders he would be confused about which way to go, left or right! I would hate to have to get one of these horses in and have to retrain it!

Open venues get better judging and I will continue on in the Open Show ring. Breed Show judges are a joke!

Carrie Giannandrea
Dances with Horses
Formula One Farms

Shadow Rider said...

OT but here is an interesting link about TWH soring http://www.kentucky.com/211/story/508643.html

snaffles said...

Are you serious? Your faulting a horse for having his nose in front of the vertical? Do you have ANY pracital concept of horse training in stock breeds at all - or are you basing you 'ideals' of western pleasure on those of a book you found from the 1970's?

I'm serious here - what exactly are you basing your critique on western pleasure on? When horses were shown overbridled? Horses that are are shown on or behind the vertical are often intimidated and are placed that way - it is a fault.

The first horse and rider pictured are not even worth discussing - they are both turned out perfectly fine for a western pleasure class - not necessarily an equitation class - though he would probably do great in eq as he does have a nice relaxed seat - he does not ride with the proverbial stick up his ass - like some do, perched on his crotch.

The horse looks like he is on the downwards step, his head is within the acceptable range, and is in keeping with the his natural conformation. Something that many people fail to keep in mind. Todays pleasure (and HUS) horse is bred with a level top line, they are designed to move with a level head, if the head dips below level for a few strides, that is not a major fault - its certainly nowhere near the same category as the black overo paint shown below.

The overo is a classic example of a horse who was schooled in an improper headset. The trainer inexplicably is also showing in a saddle who's stirrups are way too short for him, and by the tack shown I'm thinking this is a lower class show, I'd love to know who this trainer is - I can't see him being that big name.

As for the trainer in Purple - yes he is a big name - but your basing your critique on an ADVERTISING photo from a breed journal???? You have to do better than that, his job is to have his face on that stallions ass for that picture - not to impress people with his eq. I really don't think it hurt that horses breeding contract bookings in the least. AND - that horse is moving out 100% correctly for his frame - you need to study conformation and how it relates to form to function in the pleasure horse. Pick up Doug Carpenters book if you cannot see this.

The other ones do suck - I'll agree with you there - but the pictures were also clearly from the 90's - the tack and clothing being used is very out of date.

You can't seriously compare a Morgan or arab for that matter that's pictured being shown in an eq class with one of a Qh, paint or Appy being exhibited in a pleasure class. They are two different classes with two different purposes.

I grew up showing an Anglo Arab - showing equitation and doing damn well in it. I now show APHA, and follow AQHA closely as I use AQHA stallions and mares in my breeding program.

The very fact the you are advocating Judges should not place trainers based on their EQUITATION in PLEASURE classes that are judged 100% on the HORSE tell me you really have very little knowledge of show ring rules - of any association. That's like saying Anky should get marks taken off for having her head down, or not having her back straight - very realistic.

Some of the biggest horsemanship/equitation queens out there are some of the poorest riders. Just because you can sit on a horse and look pretty - doesn't mean you can actually ride and get the job done.

Pretty is as pretty does. I don't want a trainer that sits and looks pretty i want a trainer that RIDES and can do the work that needs to be done. Not one of the 'big' named trainers (ok there is only one) advertises themselves as eq trainers - or even all-around trainers. He does pleasure. he trains clients horses for pleasure. if you want to learn eq- he'll be the first one to point you in the direction to a specialist. If you can afford to get one of his horses, or employ him as a trainer - you're not a novice - you already know how to ride.

So is this truely the worst possible thing in the equine industry right now - the fact that you don't like how some western pleasure trainers - sit on their arse? How horrid.

Tuffy Horse said...

Snaffles wrote:

>Are you serious? Your faulting a horse for having his nose in front of the vertical?

I don't think it's a case of "just" having the nose in front of the vertical. It's case of having the nose in front, no impulsion, convex back and being strung out. Add these all together and they equal CRAP.

>I'm serious here - what exactly are you basing your critique on western pleasure on? When horses were shown overbridled? Horses that are are shown on or behind the vertical are often intimidated and are placed that way - it is a fault.

I base mine on the fact the horses are strung out, convex back, have no impulsion, crappy hock movement, cover no ground and look miserable. It's not western pleasure, it's western torture.

>The first horse and rider pictured are not even worth discussing - they are both turned out perfectly fine for a western pleasure class - not necessarily an equitation class - though he would probably do great in eq as he does have a nice relaxed seat


How the hell can you have a relaxed seat with your shoulder is behind center, your rein arm stiff and you heels wedged forward. A relaxed seat means a dropped heel, not a heel like you're shoving on a brake pedal.

>The horse looks like he is on the downwards step, his head is within the acceptable range, and is in keeping with the his natural conformation.

His head is not within acceptable range according to AQHA rules. Not by a long shot.

>As for the trainer in Purple - yes he is a big name - but your basing your critique on an ADVERTISING photo from a breed journal????

I think the photo is from his website, which means he approved it as an advertisement for his skills.

>
>that horse is moving out 100% correctly for his frame - you need to study conformation and how it relates to form to function in the pleasure horse.

Oh give me a break. If you think that movement is form to function you are sadly mistaken. You need to read Dr. Deb Bennett and her explanations of equine conformation, morphology and mechanics. Even if a horse is bred for a level topline they are STILL going to use their butts. The mechanical nature of their frame is required to round up in order to achieve impulsion. A convex back means they are NOT using their butt.

>The other ones do suck - I'll agree with you there - but the pictures were also clearly from the 90's - the tack and clothing being used is very out of date.

Nope, they are from current websites, some of the photos were taken as recently as a few weeks ago.


>You can't seriously compare a Morgan or arab for that matter that's pictured being shown in an eq class with one of a Qh, paint or Appy being exhibited in a pleasure class.

Equitation is about knowing how to ride, it's obvious that most pleasure trainers don't. And being in a pleasure class does NOT excuse a trainer from not riding properly. Riding is an ART, not an excuse to flog around on some horse's back like a sack of grain. And for the record I have ridden modern pleasure horses and they move like crap.

>The very fact the you are advocating Judges should not place trainers based on their EQUITATION in PLEASURE classes that are judged 100% on the HORSE tell me you really have very little knowledge of show ring rules - of any association.

Get a grip. Good riding promotes good movement, it's the first rule of Pluvenal. A "bridled" horse moves with collection and impulsion. He does not move around like a hay dolly.

>That's like saying Anky should get marks taken off for having her head down, or not having her back straight - very realistic.

Anky should have her ass busted. And I DO ride dressage and know that she rides in the modern crap style and is not at all classically trained. The fact she uses rolkur speaks to her inability to natural round up a horse. Of course the WP trainers are right in there with the draw reins and spur stops and all the other crap that tells you they can't train a "bridled" horse.


>Some of the biggest horsemanship/equitation queens out there are some of the poorest riders.

And some of the biggest "trainers" can't ride at all. They merely work a horse into an automatic form and if the horse ever deviates they fall apart.

>Pretty is as pretty does. I don't want a trainer that sits and looks pretty i want a trainer that RIDES and can do the work that needs to be done.

What about a WP trainer that drugs the hell out of his horses? Looks like there are a few of those pictured.

>So is this truely the worst possible thing in the equine industry right now - the fact that you don't like how some western pleasure trainers - sit on their arse? How horrid.


Looks like you didn't take the time to read the rest of the blog. The worst things are the rampant drug abuse by big trainers, tail blocking and soring.

snaffles said...

Tuffy - again other than spouting alot of crap - you are spouting nothing.

If you don't like pleasure that's fine - you don't have to ride it, but to slam the entire idustry - and absosultely everything about it, because you don't like it tells me more about your character, than your qualifications.

You know damn well that not every trainer drugs, fixes tails, abuses, or whatever crap your want to insert - just as not every dressage rider uses roll kur. You can insert whatever dressage, jumping, eventing, barrel racing, reining, cutting, WHATEVER discipline you like - they all don't go around the ring with perfect equitation when their schooling - you want to rewind the Summer olympics and critique Eric Lamaze's equitation over fences?

Come on, if you want to put it out there, pull up his pics and bust his ass for every dropped wrist, or leg that fell back. No wait - no one cares - because get got the job done - his job was to show the horse, that's what he did he didn't sit there in front of the crowd, thinking Jeez, I wonder if my heels are down far enough.

If you want to go after real abusers like druggers or tail fixers - and have proof and names - go on and bust their ass - I'll be there to help pour the gas on their ass and light the match. I have no tolerance for that.

But to attack people because you don't like a particular style of riding - sorry its pathetic. If you don't like it - don't do it. Some of us do and we're happy to go to our shows and keep doing it. You can support whatever activities it is that you do.

Other than Parelli-NH I have never attacked someone elses riding style. We all have different like as dislikes - that's why there are over 100 breeds, as 5 times as many activities to do with them.

As long as its not endangering the rider or the horse - its personal preference. Yes you can learn from poor examples - but riduculing an entire industry to change it to suit your personal whim is a bit of stretch.

If your so willing to trash everyone else - may we see your ever so glorious riding style?

Tuffy Horse said...

Snaffles wrote:

>Tuffy - again other than spouting alot of crap - you are spouting nothing.

Must be the person that I was replying to, when you've got nothing to work with but sputtering outrage because someone's pet discipline gets bashed then the possibility of constructive conversation is slim.

>If you don't like pleasure that's fine - you don't have to ride it, but to slam the entire idustry - and absosultely everything about it, because you don't like it tells me more about your character, than your qualifications.

I don't like like pleasure has become. I've show some excellant pleasure horses, and had the honor of knowing Co Stephanie, who won the largest pleasure horse class in ApHC history, 226 horses, which is an unmathced record throughout the stock horse industry. I KNOW what a well trained and good moving horse looks like. I know what good riding looks like, and I'm not seeing it in the show ring. Since I also JUDGE, and have for close to two decades, as well as teach and give clinics, then I can say that my eye on the sport is based on knowing what abuse and poor training looks like.



>You know damn well that not every trainer drugs, fixes tails, abuses, or whatever crap your want to insert -

I know that EVERY stock breed has altered their drug rules to allow more and more drugs into the approved lists and they do it to accommodate trainers that can't train without them.

>they all don't go around the ring with perfect equitation when their schooling -

These photos aren't of schooling, they are taken at shows, in the ring, while a trainer is trying to WIN the class.


>If you want to go after real abusers like druggers or tail fixers - and have proof and names - go on and bust their ass

How odd, you were defending one of the druggers earlier.

>But to attack people because you don't like a particular style of riding.

So sorry, I didn't realize uncentered crap was a riding style. I know balanced is a riding style, but making a horse go with a convex back, super low head and not driving behind wasn't an official style was it?


>As long as its not endangering the rider or the horse - its personal preference.

You're making the mistake of assuming I'm ridiculing the entire industry. I wasn't. I was ridiculing the individuals that ride like crap and have no idea what equitation is.

A good presentation requires good riding. Sitting up there like a sack of potatos while some poor horse carts your ass around the ring isn't riding. Constantly plucking at the reins and spurring isn't riding, it's piss poor training.
And I see this crap all the way to the Worlds and Congress and everywhere in between. And every time I catch youth riders doing it at a show I judge I bust their butts down to last and tell them to learn to ride.

snaffles said...

Sorry - I don't buy it. I've judged for years too, there's constructive and destructive - guess which stance you've taken?

I don't really care who you've known - I interned with Jody Galyean in the early 90's Do I get an award? I thought not. I trainerd for years before I was hurt and became an ammy - I've seen both sides and know what it takes to get a horse shown - really, really shown - is not even close to sitting pretty to please someone - other than the owner of the horse. Everything else is moot.

Carrie Giannandrea said...

Snaffles -

After watching some horses here in the PNW get WP trained........I'll pass. But to compete in most Breed or Open show Hi-Point competitions, you HAVE to do a Western riding class. Open is more to my taste, the judging does not follow the Stock Breeds Fads. I once competed against a 16.3 hh Saddlebred in a WP class at a WSH B rated show, the class was full of the normal low head set, shuffling along WP stock breeds. The Judge Pinned the fancy moving Saddlebred first, he was very classy! My sporty type Appaloosa youngster placed 5th.

I hear it from a lot of competitors, WP in its' Stock Breed form is not riding, it is merely staying put on an unnaturally moving horse.

Carrie Giannandrea
Dances with Horses
Formula One Farms

Tuffy Horse said...

Sanffles wrote:
>I've seen both sides and know what it takes to get a horse shown - really, really shown - is not even close to sitting pretty to please someone - other than the owner of the horse. Everything else is moot.


Sorry, don't buy it for a minute. I can remember Chris Manion, Steve Heckaman, and many of the other alumni of Aubrey/Pilot Point when showing pleasure was a pleasure.
Now it's ridng like crap on top of a bunch of artificial gaits. ( although Steve is still a nice picture on a horse)
I judge all breeds and I see the best and most consistant riding in the non-stock horse breeds.

The ironic thing is that you can watch a youth class and see good equitation. Then the trainer gets on the same horse to take it into open and the horse goes from moving naturally and balanced to tense and strung out. Happens all the time.

Trojan Mouse said...

I see the atlantic rider forum people are here in force. Looks like the malcontents take pleasure in bitching about me on their list while hiding from my replies over here. Come on people, if you're going to trash me then step up and post here where I can reply.


Snaffles,

You're barking up the wrong tree. WP has turned into a travesty. It no longer even resembles the intent of the class. It has been perverted and warped into a paean of artificial gaits, poor riding and throw away horses.
You, and the atlantic riders make the assumption that I don't "know" or "like" the stock horse. You're wrong and you're defensive because you are aligning yourself with poor riding and abuse.
I love a good stock horse. I grew up with real horsemen that knew how to train a horse to move relaxed and in cadence.
The southwest has produced some of the top pleasure horses in the industry and I knew a lot of them.
I lived in Phoenix for 25 years and knew all the trainers from Bell Road to Cave Creek. And I believe the Californio style of riding still seen in the non stock breeds, and small pockets of stock breed shows in AZ and CA, is the better way to ride because it is balanced and requires a collected horse. Horses trained in this method do not get thrown away after their WP careers are over. They are trained to light responses and don't have the baggage that spur stops, cathedral ports and constant rein picking create.
I watched the Sun Country Classic just about every year until I moved a few years ago and the riding got worse and worse and the horses got more and more miserable. You can tell yourself all you want that breeding for a level top line means those horses want to perform like jack hammers, but it's the same legion of lie the TWH people tell themselves about the artificial gaits and broken tails. It's done because someone is a piece of shit trainer that can't produce a collected and rounded horse.


TJM

equitation queen said...

Tuffy Horse said: "Since I also JUDGE, and have for close to two decades, as well as teach and give clinics..."

I think this is a salient point. Because of your experience, you should realize that OFTEN there are not high-quality riders in a class BUT riders must be placed.

I have judged state and regional 4-H shows where the riding is abysmal, but ribbons must be awarded. Sometimes, judges are not rewarding bad riding as much as they are only placing what's put in front of them. Judges have a job to do and they have to do it.

I see this ALL THE TIME when I am judging hunters. A class of 10 pre-green hunters...not a one of them I'd buy...but all ten went around the course...so I have to pin them based on the IDEAL, even if the blue-ribbon winner isn't close to ideal.

And this, I think, occurs in western horsemanship and equitation classes. By the way, have you watched any of the national-level horsemanship classes (Congress, World Show)? I am a hunter seat equitation purist (think George Morris), and some of those riders have beautiful positions. It's the upper echelon, no doubt. With some proper training, these young women (and men) can certainly transition into hunter seat equitation.

By the way, I am also not sure how fair it is to judge the equitation of professional trainers. They often have a "style" that they would never foist upon a client. A couple of years ago I watched an equitation class designed specifically for professionals at a prestigious hunter show. You should have seen the professionals "equitating." They rode beautifully (except for perhaps a German or two). It was a great class because it showed that sometimes professional hunter riders ride differently to maximize the horse's jumping effort.

Just for the record, I think the man on the sorrel horse has a good position. The cock-eyed shoulder that's referred to may be a matter of camera angle, as I don't think the shot was taken from a dead-on profile.

The topics that are broached here are not so black and white as everyone would seem.

Anonymous said...

You don't like how the stock horses are moving, which is fine, your intitled to your opinion. Where I draw the line is bitchfests like you are doing here. You want to change things, get off of your ass, away from your computer, and ride your horse the way you think it should be ridden and be happy with that. You aren't doing anything by sitting here at your computer in your basement scoring the internet for pictures of what you think horses and riders should look like. You aren't doing anything constructive by doing this, if anything you are pissing more people off.

Oh, and PS western pleasure is judged on the horse, not the rider. If you want to knock the rider's ability to sit well on a horse, go judge horsemanship. I could care less how my trainer looks on a horse, I'm paying them to train it for me to ride and then coach me.

And by the way, I don't see any western trainers going to classically trained dressage people (as you claim you are)and telling you how your horse should go around the arena. So, basically what I'm getting at is that you should just tend to your own knitting and ride you freakin dressage horse.

Anonymous said...

you're on crack... Seriously... everyone is entitled to their opinions but your uneducated statements don't hold water. You could be lucky enough to ride and show a true western pleasure horse or hunter under saddle horse. You can stick with the horses with their knees in their chest and their heads in your face. Each to their own.

worldshowrider said...

I'm glad your so free with your words that way you won't mind when ppl are that way with you. Your a dumbass you obivously have never even rode a stock horse or know the difference between pleasure and EQ. And I'm glad ppl have looked up your personal address, you don't trash one of the ApHC top trainers without ppl getting upset. My words of advice. Stop being a jealous 4-Her with no horse knowledge. Go grab your horse out of the pasture and attempt to "teach"...lol

Anonymous said...

oh, and Snaffles is correct... i know for a fact that the one photo IS from the 1998 Novice ammy class at the Congress, so VERY outdated. I also know that the photo is a professional shot, so i believe that it would be a COPYRIGHTED photo and since neither the OWNER or photographer has given their permission to use that said photo, i certainly hope it is taken down asap or you will likely be hearing from an attorney.

i don't like all breeds and displines, but i certainly don't go ripping them apart when I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THEM, and have never personally SAT on one of them!

and for those that think a WP is not collected and does not have any impulsion... get your @sses out and get on a few good ones.. my WP horses do a lot of the same types of movements as an upper level dressage horse does.. my can do canter piourettes (sp? and i don't care to look it up right now) on a LOOSE rein just be using my seat and legs.. heck, one mare could do them on a COUNTER-CANTER. can everyone's horse here do that? i'm guessing not... so until your horses are THAT finished and you've have actually spent TIME on several GOOD western Pleasure horses.. maybe people should keep their mouth shut

anniebanannie said...

Blogger snaffles said...

Tuffy - again other than spouting alot of crap - you are spouting nothing.

You're the one who doesn't know anything. Unfortunately you've been trained improperly and think it's okay to ride poorly.

Just because you and many others don't know how to ride correctly doesn't mean it is correct.

It's about time someone called you morons for being the koolaid drinking horse torturers that you are.

OzArab said...

Equitation Queen said:
"..but ribbons must be awarded."


If that is the *truely* the system in the USA then fix it. Here in Oz the judge is in no way obliged to hand out placings. It is not unusual for first place to NOT be awarded and go straight to second. Heck if everything in the ring was utter crap the judge is within rights to not award a single ribbon.
It has been fascinating looking at all this "Hunter Under Saddle" stuff because it looks nothing like the Hunter classes over here. To me they just look like WP but with different tack.

Anonymous said...

Thank you snaffles for some intelligent comments. These snarky comments equating riding ability to the dept of heel in a stirrup are laughable. The rail sitters must feel better by picking upon equitation because they are NOT successful with their own riding. as you say, go pick on the abusers, not everyone and anyone who doesn't ride in the equitation style you may be accustomed to.

Anonymous said...

To Snaffles... I don't think you are going to get the job done here with these people.... they are just a much different class... I show aqha pleasure horses at the major circuits, world and congress... you and I are on a different level... some people just can't grasp what we want and like and look for... and there is nothing you are going to do to change their minds... in my personal opinion, the original poster, the individual who had time to look through pictures and draw her little lines and memorize the rule book and find fault... I think you need to stay with what you are used to... if you show arabs then critique arab riders, if you show morgans then go find pictures from your magazines... every breed is different and their ideas on what is and isn't right is their opinion and should stay that way... Just because the "terrible" aqha and apha trainers and exhibitors don't live up to your standards doesn't give you or anyone for that matter the right to run us down.... we all do things different.. personally I would like to see a picture of you on your horse with little lines drawn... or do you even ride.... also I think it is really really low to start a page like this.. you don't see aqha people starting pages like this one...not only that, but what do you do for a living... what normal person actually has the time to put together a page like this... I think you need to find something better to do with your time... maybe you should find a job as a trainers assistant... put all these "good skills" of yours to better use..

Trojan Mouse said...

Anniebannanie:

>It's about time someone called you morons for being the koolaid drinking horse torturers that you are.

roflmao! I spit dr. pepper on that one!
May I quote you on the home page?

Sug said...

Trojan Mouse: Should you decide to use this on your homepage, I've added the missing hyphens and corrected some capitalization problems, but even after the changes, it's one mess of a sentence. You might want to reconsider adding this to your homepage. In fact, you might want to get another colorful quote from Anniebannanie.

It's about time someone called you morons for being the Kool-Aid-drinking horse torturers that you are.


Sug

Trojan Mouse said...

Sug,

Doesn't matter how the sentence is composed, I think people get the general gist.

The wolf pack mentality of the pleasure crowd is well known.

anniebanannie said...

Sug said...

You might want to reconsider adding this to your homepage. In fact, you might want to get another colorful quote from Anniebannanie.

It's about time someone called you morons for being the Kool-Aid-drinking horse torturers that you are.


Oh! Oh! Thanks for helping me out with my grammar. Hey, is it proper to end a sentence with the form of the verb "to be"?

I was just wondering because I briefly considered changing the sentence but it seemed to stilted.

lopinslow said...

You say these are very recent pictures but the girl with number 8655 is not recent. She has on a breast collar- this is DEF. from a while ago, nobody shows in breast collars. OF COURSE: another fault in the WP world! :)

Sug said...

Anniebannanie said: "Hey, is it proper to end a sentence with the form of the verb "to be"?"

Yes, it is acceptable. And here's a possible revision.

It's about time someone realized you are Kool-Aid-drinking horse torturers.

I'm playing here, of course. I don't care how it's written. I am just not sure it's completely fair. This is something I thought of today. There are a lot of unsuspecting people that get in with unscrupulous trainers because they're right down the road or because their friend recommended them or because they decide to redeem the coupon for a free riding lesson that was in The Penny Pincher. They don't necessarily know better. Yes, yes, I know the adage, "ignorance is not a defense," but this does happen.

anniebanannie said...

sug said:
It's about time someone realized you are Kool-Aid-drinking horse torturers.

I'm playing here, of course. I don't care how it's written. I am just not sure it's completely fair. This is something I thought of today. There are a lot of unsuspecting people that get in with unscrupulous trainers because they're right down the road or because their friend recommended them or because they decide to redeem the coupon for a free riding lesson that was in The Penny Pincher. They don't necessarily know better. Yes, yes, I know the adage, "ignorance is not a defense," but this does happen.


You know what? It probably isn't entirely fair but I really don't care. Here is why: In life there have to be reactionaries and revolutionaries to make things uncomfortable in order to change the, to use a dated word, "establishment". If everyone is comfortable, things just stay the way they are.

Take gas prices and fuel efficiency for example. Everyone knew or should have known that oil supplies are limited and yet, folks went out and bought big trucks and SUVs even if they had no real use for them. Now with the advent of high gas prices you can't sell a truck for anywhere near what it was worth a year ago, even new ones. Moped prices are through the roof and everyone wants a gas saving automobile.

Even better examples are the civil rights and the women's movement and protests against the Vietnam war. It takes momentum and courage to change the status quo and it's not always fun or pretty (Please do not assume that I think poor training and riding compare equally with these important historical events).

And I know for a fact that innocent people who don't know any better do get drawn in by trainers who are less than desirable. It happens all the time.

I know a couple of non-horse people who were dazzled by the big lick TWH's. Since they had money they went out and bought two very sweet (as TWH's usually are) seasoned horses.

After their horses won some classes, they decided to buy some untrained youngsters and they were appalled at the training techniques they witnessed. Luckily, they had the sense to pull their horses from training and now they show flat-shod only.

Here's the deal: I've got some definite opinions and I'm not going to be silent. My mother taught me that silence implies consent; I’m not going to be silent. If I could have clued this TWH couple in prior to them buying their young stock, maybe I could have saved two horses some pain.

reffyca said...

I took a friend to a national Quarter Horse show a while ago. After watching the Western "Pleasure" class for a while, she remarked, "With pleasure like this, who needs pain?"