For some reason the stock horse industry decided to take a perfectly good sport, that had traditions, and standards, for hundreds of years, and turn it into a mechanical nightmare. Slapping an English saddle on a WP horse does not a hunter make. Instead it makes about as much sense as doing dressage on a Paso Fino. You’ve got no extension, no impulsion and no collection. And for those of you that read the western version and thought I was in favor of tight reins: you’re wrong. I want collection. Collection starts in the rear end, rounds the back, and lifts the shoulder at the base. Collection doesn’t even require a bridle. What is does require is a seat and good legs. A bridled horse collects with a touch and tension on the reins is an illusion. You ride a collected horse with your seat first and your hands only when finesse is needed. Let’s take a look at a few English Equitation standards. This first one is a handbook drawing.
This is from an actual equitation handbook. The rider is slightly forward at the trot, the heel and hip are in line, the shoulder and elbow are square and going straight to the rein. The rider has contact but the horse is not over bent. The eye is level with the withers. This horse could take two steps into a canter and head into a fence with no problem. This is what hunt seat is about. The intent is that at some point your hunter could pop over a fence. If your horse’s head is below level he’s not going to be able to elevate in order to jump.
Here’s a photo I like of an actual rider. The horse is relaxed and has great lines. It’s driving under itself and is working well on the bit. The reins are slack, but you can see the horse is collecting and pushing from behind. For the record the child is ten in this photo and the horse was bought as a 10 year old rehab that had chronic barn sourness and run away issues when the child started showing it. So we can forgive a few flaws, but overall it’s a nice photo and the child won the class of 18, over adult and more advanced riders. (those of you saying I don’t appreciate stock horse breeds can note that this is an Appaloosa, who also has Doc O’Lena breeding, so can’t get much stock horse than that) And for the record this mare has won high point at open and breed shows.
Here she is again coming into a downshift transition. She’s straightened up for the gait change, sitting deep, leg in line, heels down, hands nice and even, reins in contact but relaxed. Mare has her nose poked out a bit, but considering she was one of the worst rooters I’ve ever seen three months prior to this photo this is pretty good head set. Mare is rounded, working under herself to slow down without propping on the front. Nice relaxed photo. The child is even smiling, she’s enjoying the ride, hell the horse looks like she’s smiling too.
Now we drop a few levels in ability, and rise a few levels in expectations. We’re going to compare some top stock horse HUS riders on top bloodlines to a ten year old on a rehab horse.
Boy, sure love that foot jammed forward and the nice duck butt this gal has going. How about those slack reins but over flexed head? Can you say picked at so much this horse’s tongue is probably black? The head is at least level with the withers, but overall it looks strung out, downhill and uncomfortable.
First thing I find wrong is the fact the heels of the rider are up. WTF is the deal with that? You can see her entire knee is disengaged and her toes are down. If this horse propped or spooked her ass would be riding air. The horse has poor cadence. You can look at the leg angulations and see that the hind leg angle does not match the front leg angle on what should be the top of the stride, since both feet are flat on the ground. Mechanically I can tell you that the front foot of this horse hit the ground well before the hind foot did, making for a four beat trot. Yuck! Loose rein, way behind the vertical. There is a spur stop and a lot of plucking in this horse’s past.
Where do I begin? Leaned forward. This horse is walking, wtf is the rush to the fire? The heel is up. The head is too low. It’s like the hunchback took off from bell ringer duties and decided to take in a HUS class prior to matins. Horse has no collection, strung out, over flexed and not getting any relief from those heels digging in. Of course a quick buck would remove the annoyance from his back, because her seat is so weak she’d flick off like a booger from a redneck’s finger.
If this horse dropped his head below his withers and she ditched the vest this pair could just about win a stock horse HUS class. Heels up? Check. Bad posture? Check. Poor collection? Check. Ass bouncing out of the saddle? Check. We have a winner!
Dreck! Dreck! and more Dreck!
68 comments:
What really bothered me was the kids at our Breed Youth show riding English as if they were in a WP class. They are being taught to ride this way by their trainers and that only perpetuates the problem!
Carrie Giannandrea
Dances with Horses
Formula One Farms
It's not just the kids, it's the trainers at upper level shows. The lower legs are just terrible. If they aren't penguin footed then they are swinging their leg on every single post.
I don't get it, hunt seat is an easy method to learn. If people would learn to ride correctly they would realize that it takes much less effort than the flopping about all over the saddle.
Tracy Meisenbach
www.trinityapp.com
http://thehorsediary.net/ (updated 9-3-2008)
Yes Tracy,
and I do blame it on Trainers who are the ones getting pinned by our judge/trainers. I also blame the parents, whether they know any better or not, research is easy to do these days.
All that is needed is for parents to take the time to check out trainers and not just the ones who are winning.
But winning is more important than doing something right.........so once again, greed is the culprit.
Carrie Giannandrea
Dances with Horses
Formula One Farms
I. love. this. blog.
OMG! I went along to one of my friend's daughters' lessons. Her lower leg was all over the place and not once did the 'trainer' say or do anything to correct it. And this was supposed to develop into jumping lessons...
Oh and said trainer was wearing flip flops, a sun hat and a skimpy dress that barely covered her ass while walking. Good thing she sat on a folding chair in the middle of the arean the whole time.
Needless to say that was the last lesson there.
CutNjump said:
"said trainer was wearing flip flops, a sun hat and a skimpy dress that barely covered her ass while walking. Good thing she sat on a folding chair in the middle of the arean the whole time."
rotflmao!!!
I know a local trainer that sounds just like this person, claims to be a Jump trainer too..........I call her the Spandex Queen, very scary person!
Ya' think they might be related?
Carrie Giannandrea
Dances with Horses
Formula One Farms
Someone on one of the previous posts mentioned being at the Reichert. I was there for a few days too. The HUS classes made me sick. Nothing but rein tugging and spur jabbing.
Har! Love the last pic! ;P Are those (bad ones) hunter-under-saddle? Isn't that like the english equivalent of western equitation? I guess I just appreciate good riding, no matter what the discipline. Balance is balance.
Regarding the girl riding the Appaloosa, there are deficiencies in position, notably her too-long stirrup. Her trainer needs to re-evaluate this; there should be more bend to the knee. Children are blessed with stretchy musculoskeletal components (ligaments and tendons), so a jammed-down heel is no special distinction in my book. It's much harder for an adult to get this type of leg/heel position if they did not ride as a youngster.
There needs to be more thought placed in this pair's attire: the saddle is too big, the stirrup leather excess is too long, the saddle pad too big and fluffy. And does a child need to ride in a kimberwicke? I would say no to that. If the pony is of the disposition to need it, then perhaps it's not ready for the show ring.
So, while she does offer a somewhat better alternative to some of the other photos you pasted onto the page, I'd have to see this one in action before I'd believe she was an effective rider, given the disadvantageous stirrup length.
I have to disagree with the rehab app being a good example of a good rider. In the second pic the nose is in front of the vertical with a kimberwicke no less. This is hollowing out the horses back, and it is not on the bit much less collected. I think the saddle is as my grandmother would say "ill fitting". Perhaps the wrong size, perhaps completely a wrong fit for horse and rider. I see the heals down but I'm not seeing contact making the horse collect at all. The kimberwicke obviously isn't helping at all with collection and this kid shouldn't be using one in the first place. I just don't like the overall picture this horse and rider present.
I just love it that the last two posters decided to pick on the small child on the rehabbed mare and not the big trainers, which she is clearly riding better than.
Does it make you feel better to feel superior to a child? We expect mistakes from them, which is the point of using those pictures, we don't expect mistakes from top trainers.
Equitation Queen wrote"
>Regarding the girl riding the Appaloosa, there are deficiencies in position, notably her too-long stirrup. Her trainer needs to re-evaluate this; there should be more bend to the knee
No there shouldn't. She is not jumping, she is riding on the flat. A common mistake that most trainers make is making their kids ride on the flat with jump length stirrups. This removes the ability of the lower leg to cue the horse and bows the rider's back. In PROPER equitation the rider can remove their foot from the stirrup and the stirrup will hang at their ankle bone, not above it, ask George Morris. I give equitation clinics all the time and spend a lot of time lowering stirrups because kids are riding on the flat with jump short stirrups. All that does it make them bob up too high on their posting.
>Beauisabella said...
>I have to disagree with the rehab app being a good example of a good rider. In the second pic the nose is in front of the vertical with a kimberwicke no less. This is hollowing out the horses back, and it is not on the bit much less collected
You must have missed the point about the horse being a rehab that had a rooting problem. And by Pony Club and USEF standards the mare's head is in good position.
> I think the saddle is as my grandmother would say "ill fitting". Perhaps the wrong size, perhaps completely a wrong fit for horse and rider.
Too funny. The saddle fits the mare fine, she's about 1300 pounds and wide as an elephant. The saddle is a bit big for the child, mainly becaue they don't make elephant fitting children's saddles.
But again, you're missing the point that even with all the little kid flaws, she's still better presented than the big trainers who get PAID to ride. But if it makes you feel better to bash a kid that's making an effort to rehab a horse, instead of turning it in to some head dropping, foot dragging, down hill pleasure puke then by all means continue with your bashing.
Tracy Meisenbach
www.trinityapp.com
http://thehorsediary.net/ (updated 9-3-2008)
Carrie G- It was at this farm- Crossroads I believe Rachel was the trainer that day, but I could be wrong.
When we were there, all of the horses including boarders, were obese. As in fat globules on their necks, wither areas, spine, rumps, dock area, shoulders...
One or two I can understand, but all of them? Talk about weight/health issues waiting to happen. They fed hay cubes then, not sure if they still do.
BOF- rein tugging and spur jabbing...
You just described pretty much every breed show around here. AQHA, APHA, POA, ApHA, AHA...
Bonus points for using any of the following:
high ports,
long shanks,
tight curb chains,
draw reins,
martingales,
kimberwickes,
mickmar bits,
large rowels
and of course the ever present whip or crop in your back pocket!
Double points and triple word score for using more than one from the above list in creative combinations.
If the horse still manages to misbehave, they score points as well depending on the level of behaviour and danger each one presents. If they manage to remove the ignorant ass from their back they get all collective points and advance to the bonus round...
CnJ - Yup... They still feed hay cubes over there. I had a client horse go there for a few months (arab/oldenburg cross), and when he came back to me he had more cottage cheese going on than that woman from the Fugly blog that photoshopped her ass.
And Tuffy, I agree... It's a bit harsh to pick on the kid and her overly fluffy saddle pad. She's a good little rider, and it's a cute little horse.
Kellimare- this was several years back, but apparently some things never change. We hauled two out of there a while back for a local gal. The horses were nice enough, but the owners... (???) WOW! That's about all I can say. Just WOW!
And I too agree with Tuffyhorse. I see the flat length/jump length stirrup crap all the time. Our 4H kid won ALL of her english riding classes last year because of it. Her longer stirrups/legs gave her a deeper seat which allowed her hands to be more independant enabling her to use both more effectively.
Even though she blew the diagonal change in her first show- the difference was night and day between her and the other riders so the judge pinned her first and gave that specific reasoning for her placings.
Were the other parents upset? Sure! Especially the one 'show mom' from the same barn where the gal used to board. Maybe more like Livid in her case.
I would rather see a kid on a horse with a fluffy pad and a saddle that fits the horse, than a saddle that fits the kid and not the horse.
If the saddle fits the horse, the kid can adjust. The horse will be comfortable and more likely to work like they should. If the saddle doesn't fit the horse, then other problems arise- bucking, head tossing, bit diving and running off to name a few. The horse can't adjust under the saddle as easily as the rider can. Think there were problems before, add those to the mix and see what happens.
And as stated in the OP, the kid is on a horse with known issues which were explained. I don't care for the bit of choice, but maybe they are still working on that at home. If not they should be, but that's still up to them.
The trainers- well the horses wouldn't have issues if they knew what they were doing. To think they are taking money for that? Shame on them, their clients and the judges who continue to pin them.
CutNJump said:
"Talk about weight/health issues waiting to happen. They fed hay cubes then, not sure if they still do."
I used to have the option to feed Alf/Grass cubes, made directly out of the field at White Oak Ranch along the Sacramento River. If you weigh them out, you do not create obese horses. And there is no waste, none at all! I loved them. They take up way less room in the barn and I never had the mess to constantly broom up that I do with bales. Around here, you can't get them and I truly miss them. The stack in my barn is 12' wide, 40' long and 16' high to hold 40 ton. I would need only half of that space if I could get cubes.
But the "trainer" I was talking about has skinny horses, 40 acres and not a blade of grass on it with over 40 horses. So, I guess they are just related and not the same person! LOL!
Carrie Giannandrea
Dances with Horses
Formula One Farms
Perhaps we should comment on what tuffy thinks is proper equitation, and breeding - from her own website:
http://www.trinityapp.com/stallions.htm
Carrie G-
I hope you didn't think I meant that the cubes were the reason for the obesity problem. I sure didn't intend it that way!
That is what they fed, but I doubt they weighed anything out. From what I saw, they had a wheelbarrow and a scoop shovel that they used for feeding.
Horses can be overfed on pretty much anything- hay, cubes, pellets or ???
I have had horses on cubes before, pellets and hay as well. Each has their benefits and drawbacks. Cost, consistency, storage space, amount of waste, ease of feeding, availability, portability and manuverability (for horse shows or traveling), to name a few.
If we could just get the benefits from each all rolled into one, without any of the drawbacks...
Sorry, was I dreaming or just wishful thinking?
Snaffles- I looked and didn't see anything shocking, scary or otherwise. Your point?
CutnJump,
Snaffles is over on the pleasure horse forums bashing my horse because I had to audacity to agree with Trojan Mouse that the riding sucks. So now she's kid bashing because it makes her feel powewrful.
For some insane reason she also thinks this is my blog, which it isn't. But what can you expect from someone that thinks riding with your heels up, back arched, leg swinging and hands all over the place is okay.
Looks like the pleasure horse forum has gone crazy just like they do when fugly gets a hold of them.
CutNJump said:
"From what I saw, they had a wheelbarrow and a scoop shovel that they used for feeding"
And that method of feeding is probably the problem!
And I do agree with you, I would like that "perfect" feed too, but I guess that is why we "husband" horses, even if the feed were perfect, the horse ain't!
LOL!!
Carrie Giannandrea
Dances with Horses
Formula One Farms
This is getting so fun! I have been threatened with at least three attorney letters and all kinds of other things. Must have hit a nerve. Reading the pleasure horse forums was a crack up. It was like listening to crack addicts trying to justify why their drug use is acceptable.
Now they're accusing other people of owning my blog! I want all the credit! This baby is mine!
One thing I noticed is that the poll about blocked tails had a sharp increase in the number of people that fond it acceptable the second the pleasure horse forum people showed up. Guess we know who thinks doing illegal shit is okay!
Of course the cowardly shits won't post here, they don't have their wolf pack to back them. Instead, like the atlantic riders, they want to stay in their close knit groups and whine about how picked on they are.
TJM
snaffles said:
"Perhaps we should comment on what tuffy thinks is proper equitation, and breeding"
I looked and I saw some well taken care of horses and some good eye candy with spots! (biased here on the spots, admittedly!)
I don't care if you ride in only one discipline, the foundation of basic riding skills are the same. Posture, hands, legs and balance.....always the same!
If you want bastardized equitation, then all you have to do buy a BNT WP horse and take lessons from them on how to ride it! Because I can assure you, it does not cue/ride like a normally trained horse. Then they throw English tack on these very same horses....ugh!
Stopping consists of rolling back your pelvis and sitting deep.....WP horses stop how??? Collection consists of an ever so slight suppling of the bit.....WP horses collect how???
and a myriad of other non-standard training methods, not to mention "beaming" which just breaks my heart!
Carrie Giannandrea
Dances with Horses
Formula One Farms
People who post as "anonymous" really bite!
I bet that was one rough canter pirouette!
Come on out to the barn, you can ride a Gran Prix finished horse, THEN you will know power, impulsion and a HAPPY horse!
(evil laugh!)
Carrie Giannandrea
Dances with Horses
Formula One Farms
Tuffy Horse..tsk tsk..we'll take this point by point..
You said: "I just love it that the last two posters decided to pick on the small child on the rehabbed mare and not the big trainers, which she is clearly riding better than."
Dear, you're the one that posted her photograph. We are allowed, in fact encouraged, to analyze the photographs you consider flawed but we're not permitted fair access to this one. I am wondering if she's your student?
As far as the rehabbed horse goes, the past is the past, and the sooner you get over the mare's past, the more quickly you can deal with her problems, the ones you mentioned (the rooting, the grabbing the bridle reins out of her kid's hands, etc.). This is something I learned from Dr. Deb Bennett, whose work I think you admire. Horses are forgiving beasts. The mare isn't stuck on her history and neither should you. Why? Because it will always give her an "escape route," a justification for this behavior or that. For her sake, quit making excuses for her.
You queried: "Does it make you feel better to feel superior to a child? We expect mistakes from them, which is the point of using those pictures, we don't expect mistakes from top trainers."
I don't feel superior to children, to you, to my partner, or to anyone else. And I don't expect perfection from anyone, even my trainer. You, however, expect perfection from all trainers, or so it seems. Or at least stock-horse trainers, dressage trainers, hunter seat equitation trainers, etc.
You wrote: "No there shouldn't. She is not jumping, she is riding on the flat. A common mistake that most trainers make is making their kids ride on the flat with jump length stirrups. This removes the ability of the lower leg to cue the horse and bows the rider's back. In PROPER equitation the rider can remove their foot from the stirrup and the stirrup will hang at their ankle bone, not above it, ask George Morris. I give equitation clinics all the time and spend a lot of time lowering stirrups because kids are riding on the flat with jump short stirrups. All that does it make them bob up too high on their posting."
Yes, you've managed to quote Morris correctly; however, I continue to believe the stirrup is too long, even for hacking on the flat. I hope you will reconsider your position on this before you lengthen other people's stirrups. I am always bothered by people who immediately want to change my equipment when I ride (and I have had the pleasure of having clinics with some big names--Madden, Morris, Fargis, etc.) I was particularly put off by the clinician that pulled my horse's noseband two holes tighter than it is normally adjusted as he was doing his cursory once-over of my equipment (this was a dressage trainer that my equitation trainer sent us to weekly for flat lessons).
You said: "The saddle fits the mare fine, she's about 1300 pounds and wide as an elephant. The saddle is a bit big for the child, mainly becaue they don't make elephant fitting children's saddles."
This is not true. They do make saddles to fit all shapes and sizes of riders and horses. Now, can said child afford said saddle? I don't know. I don't care. But it IS possible.
You said (again): "But again, you're missing the point that even with all the little kid flaws, she's still better presented than the big trainers who get PAID to ride. But if it makes you feel better to bash a kid that's making an effort to rehab a horse, instead of turning it in to some head dropping, foot dragging, down hill pleasure puke then by all means continue with your bashing."
No one here is bashing the child. You must, Tuffy Horse, make a distinction between the following verbs: to critique and to analyze. You seem dead-set on critiquing; I'd rather analyze. There is a difference. Your position on these issues would be so much more reasonable if there wasn't so much hatefulness and ugliness thrown about.
If it makes you feel better, I am glad to see the child in jodphurs and paddock boots; I prefer these to tall boots on growing children.
Tuffy Horse: Did you just read Cutnjump's post. I hope you don't allow youngsters to read this, including your daughter, because this is out of hand.
OzArab said:
"If that is the *truely* the system in the USA then fix it. Here in Oz the judge is in no way obliged to hand out placings. It is not unusual for first place to NOT be awarded and go straight to second. Heck if everything in the ring was utter crap the judge is within rights to not award a single ribbon.
It has been fascinating looking at all this "Hunter Under Saddle" stuff because it looks nothing like the Hunter classes over here. To me they just look like WP but with different tack."
I truly wish that was the way of it here in the US, but no, they HAVE to pin what is in front of them and I don't agree with that practice! Kinda' like how we educate our kids over here.......same mentality!
And you are dead on about western horses with english tack!
Carrie Giannandrea
Dances with Horses
Formula One Farms
Equitation Queen Wrote:
>Dear, you're the one that posted her photograph.
No, you dolt, I didn't. I don't own this blog.
>As far as the rehabbed horse goes, the past is the past, and the sooner you get over the mare's past, the more quickly you can deal with her problems, the ones you mentioned (the rooting, the grabbing the bridle reins out of her kid's hands, etc.). This is something I learned from Dr. Deb Bennett, whose work I think you admire. Horses are forgiving beasts. The mare isn't stuck on her history and neither should you.
Again, you show your lack of reading comprehension. I believe it was pointed out that the mare was "recently" rehabbed when the photo was taken. You have no idea how the mare goes now.
>You, however, expect perfection from all trainers, or so it seems. Or at least stock-horse trainers, dressage trainers, hunter seat equitation trainers, etc.
I epxect trainers to do a better job than a child does. Sadly my expectations are rarely met.
>Yes, you've managed to quote Morris correctly; however, I continue to believe the stirrup is too long, even for hacking on the flat.
You are believing wrong. I grew up riding with George Brush and I've judged with Jimmie Lee. Jump stirrups on the flat are POOR equitation.
>(and I have had the pleasure of having clinics with some big names--Madden, Morris, Fargis, etc.)
If you've been to a Fargis clinic then you should know the over bent knee crap is a big fault. He is one of the best equitation over fences riders there is and his clinics are renowned. Thankfully since he lives in Virginia where I do he's pretty easy to get advice from since he does clinics all over the state.
>No one here is bashing the child. You must, Tuffy Horse, make a distinction between the following verbs: to critique and to analyze. You seem dead-set on critiquing; I'd rather analyze.
And by analyzing the photos you completely skip commenting on the poor riding of the trainers and immediately jump on the kid. Hmm, seems a bit biased and not at all a broad spectrum analysis. That would lead a person to believe that your intent in analyzing only the child means that you favor the poor riding of the trainers.
I find it hilarious that you all are berating me on this - I never once mentioned the kid on her site. Not once.
Tuffy has shot her mouth off about what heathens we are, all I did was put up a link of a website, same as is done on this blog. I never took out a yellow pen, I never critiqued her riding one bit.
Funny how YOU all jumped to that (her eq) - perhaps this is something YOU all saw right away.
If you all want to call be a bitch or a cunt - whatever little names you can think of - thats fine like I said to Tracey when she came over to the Pleasure forum and made an ass out of herself - if you're going to point fingers at people and tell them how horrible they are, their horses are, their industry is, remember that there are 3 fingers pointing back at you.
If you are going to walk that walk, have the balls to back it up.
Her horses are healthy and well cared for, I have no issues with that - we're not on Fugly
s blog here. But if you want to call other horses/trainers/riders garbage, you better be packing one hell of a stable yourself.
You've seen the proof - if that's what you think world class quality is, regardless of breed, discipline, or riding style. Good on ya.
If only her opinions and humiliations are ok with you guys, that's fine too, generally people learn more from opposing views than those that never differ from their own.
Prior to today I've always done my best to remain civilized despite being repeatedly insulted - but if all I am to people like Tracey and the rest of you is a mindless animal abuser because I don't do things her way. Then there's no point in trying to learn.
Sanffles,
You went over on the pleasure horse forum and spread the lie that I own this blog, which made everyone jump on me. You didn't even have the decency to retract the lie.
I said people should not kill the messenger and they went crazy and started ripping into my website because they haven't balls to admit their own flaws.
It's embarassing that a group of people that tout themselves as the best in the industry would act in such a manner. I found it particularly humorous that people were screaming about copyright infringement when the owner of the pleasure horse site posted my copyrighted article without my permission and others on the fourm have posted my articles without even acknoledging where they came from. Yet they are offended when someone gives them back a little of their own medicine?
Sanffles,
>Funny how YOU all jumped to that (her eq) - perhaps this is something YOU all saw right away.
You are so stupid. That isn't me in the photo, it's a kid. I'm way older. When are you going to get that through your head?
Equitation Queen,
>Tuffy Horse: Did you just read Cutnjump's post. I hope you don't allow youngsters to read this, including your daughter, because this is out of hand.
WTF does Tuffy have to do with this blog? I own this blog. I control the content.
If you would get your head out of your ass you'd realize that you're addressing a person that doesn't have shit to do with the content of the blog. Why the heck are you asking her to censor it?
Looks like both you and snaffles have been bounced around so much on your stump moving horses that your brains are rattled beyond repair. If you can't figure out who owns the blog, when it is clearly listed on the front page, then you need to brush up on your reading skills.
T J Maus
Tuffy Horse wrote: "No, you dolt, I didn't. I don't own this blog."
What is this, first grade? Name-calling? Oh my.
Tuffy Horse wrote: "Again, you show your lack of reading comprehension. I believe it was pointed out that the mare was "recently" rehabbed when the photo was taken. You have no idea how the mare goes now."
It doesn't matter to me when it was rehabbed. Stop reliving the past. Move on. Once again, why are you defending this horse/rider combination so much?
Tuffy Horse wrote: "I epxect trainers to do a better job than a child does. Sadly my expectations are rarely met."
Why are you so enmeshed with this child? MOST trainers can get more out of a horse than this child, even the ones your faulting endlessly. As a trainer, do you meet all of your own expectations?
Tuffy Horse wrote: "You are believing wrong. I grew up riding with George Brush and I've judged with Jimmie Lee. Jump stirrups on the flat are POOR equitation."
I've been around hunters a long time and I've never heard of George Brush. Jimmy Lee is old-fashioned, dear. And when I saw him at Devon this year, he was exceedingly crude. The only thing he does is judge anymore (or the occasional clinic) and that judging is questionable (ironically enough, it's his placing of equitation classes which really stirs up people).
Tuffy Horse wrote: "If you've been to a Fargis clinic then you should know the over bent knee crap is a big fault. He is one of the best equitation over fences riders there is and his clinics are renowned. Thankfully since he lives in Virginia where I do he's pretty easy to get advice from since he does clinics all over the state."
Go to more clinics with Fargis, and please listen more carefully at your next Fargis clinic.
Tuffy Horse wriote: "And by analyzing the photos you completely skip commenting on the poor riding of the trainers and immediately jump on the kid. Hmm, seems a bit biased and not at all a broad spectrum analysis. That would lead a person to believe that your intent in analyzing only the child means that you favor the poor riding of the trainers."
You're such an angry person. If it weren't so funny, it would be sad. And you, Tuffy Horse, believe that this child (I still think there's a connection between you and her) is heaven's gift to hunter seat equitation. I am sure she's a nice kid but if you really believe that she is more capable of training and riding a horse properly than most adults that have made it to the national level in any discipline, you're sadly mistaken.
Tuffy Horse, there is nothing you can call me or say to me that will upset me. I am happy to discuss equitation with you and any othe others on this list but I will not lower myself to name-calling (as you have). Call me what you will, Tuffy Horse, but I am one person that you cannot intimidate or anger with your hatred and beliefs, be them right or wrong..
Trojan Mouse said: "WTF does Tuffy have to do with this blog? I own this blog. I control the content."
And what a fine job you do.
Trojan Mouse queried: "Why the heck are you asking her to censor it?"
I was asking a question to her, not you.
Trojan Mouse: Why the anger? Why the hate?
Trojan Mouse wrote: "Looks like both you and snaffles have been bounced around so much on your stump moving horses that your brains are rattled beyond repair. If you can't figure out who owns the blog, when it is clearly listed on the front page, then you need to brush up on your reading skills."
Quite frankly, TJ, I don't care who owns the blog. Why would I try to ferret out the owner? I will brush up on my reading comprehension skills, as you suggest, if you work on your writing skills. What does this mean, for instance? "...bounced around so much on your stump moving horses..."? I don't understand that, but then it's probably my reading skills again.
As I told Tuffy Horse, there is nothing you can call me or say to me that bothers me, Trojan Mouse, so type whatever you like. If it makes you feel better to pick on an amateur rider, so be it. But you won't fool or trick me into believing what I know to be true. Some of what is said here is credible, some not.
Ok Tracey - Never once did I say you owned this blog, not once on the pleasure horse forum did I say that. I've even gone back through every one of my posts to check - again not once in any of my posts does it say that I said you owned the blog.
I said that I battled with you the other day over the western eq pictures, I commented how I think that the camera shots that were posted are misleading since they were taken from an angle.
Every post I made on that thread is:
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Actually Tuffy as old as talking to you is getting, go back and read - again i never said it was you - everyone assumed I was criticizing the girl - I never was - everyone here assumed I was - since they all assumed it - I'm thinking they all thought there was something to criticize.
For all anyone knew I could have been taling about the pole bening - but you do alot of assume-ing - well at least you have the ass part right.
Equitation Queen wrote:
>It doesn't matter to me when it was rehabbed. Stop reliving the past. Move on. Once again, why are you defending this horse/rider combination so much?
Who's reliving the past. You seem to be the one stuck in time since you feel that a photo means the horse and irder has remained statci forever. Weren't you the one offering that the horse "needed" these other things, without having any idea of what the horse does now? How can you tell what the horse ( any horse) needs now, since you have no idea when the photo was taken.
>
>Why are you so enmeshed with this child? MOST trainers can get more out of a horse than this child, even the ones your faulting endlessly.
Really? When? I watched the Congress HUS class on youtube and I din't see anything I would even call close to riding properly. I saw a lot of pumping legs, plucking hands and horses bobbing their heads.
>I've been around hunters a long time and I've never heard of George Brush.
Then I'd guess you weren't riding the AZ and CA circuits like we were. George was a one time Olympic Coach and one of the first importers of warmbloods into America.
> Jimmy Lee is old-fashioned, dear. And when I saw him at Devon this year, he was exceedingly crude. The only thing he does is judge anymore (or the occasional clinic) and that judging is questionable (ironically enough, it's his placing of equitation classes which really stirs up people).
BWAHAHA! He judges and he teaches judging. He also is tough on placing good legs and good hands. So I'm sure a lot of people complain.
>Go to more clinics with Fargis, and please listen more carefully at your next Fargis clinic.
It's pretty easy to hear: If your stirrups are too short you're going to lose the use of your seat.
>You're such an angry person.
No dear, I've been laughing at your pseudo Mr.Miyagi thing. What next are you going to tell us to wax on and wax off?
>And you, Tuffy Horse, believe that this child (I still think there's a connection between you and her) is heaven's gift to hunter seat equitation.
Nope, never said that or even implied it. I said she was better than the trainers pictured. I never said she was going to beat David O'Connor.
Equitation Queen wrote:
>I will brush up on my reading comprehension skills, as you suggest, if you work on your writing skills. What does this mean, for instance? "...bounced around so much on your stump moving horses..."? I don't understand that, but then it's probably my reading skills again.
It's your reading skills. A stump moving horse is one that moves like it's hitting a buried tree stump on every stride. It's a southwest term for a rough moving horse.
Snaffles,
You proved my point. You were replying to a person who was ragging the BLOG OWNER and you said:
>
>I said that I battled with you the other day over the western eq pictures
Since you argued with ME about the western equ stuff ( go check the archives) then you are saying that the battle you had was with the blog owner because the post you replied to was about the blog OWNER.
Take a pen and connect the dots!
Tuffy Horse wrote (incoherently, in my opinion): "Who's reliving the past. You seem to be the one stuck in time since you feel that a photo means the horse and irder has remained statci forever. Weren't you the one offering that the horse "needed" these other things, without having any idea of what the horse does now? How can you tell what the horse ( any horse) needs now, since you have no idea when the photo was taken."
My question: If the past is irrelevant why mention the need for rehabilitation? I am all for moving on.
Tuffy Horse wrote: "Really? When? I watched the Congress HUS class on youtube and I din't see anything I would even call close to riding properly. I saw a lot of pumping legs, plucking hands and horses bobbing their heads."
I am sure the riders in that hunter under saddle class could get more from a horse than this child. You might not agree with the way it's achieved, Tuffy Horse, but I think they would be more effective than the novice that is presented in the photograph on this Web site. And while the young girl's equitation (we've not seen her in motion) might be better than those in the video you watched on YouTube, I would question her effectiveness for one reason solely--her age!
Tuffy Horse wrote: "Then I'd guess you weren't riding the AZ and CA circuits like we were. George was a one time Olympic Coach and one of the first importers of warmbloods into America."
No, I wasn't riding in Arizona or California.
Tuffy Horse wrote: "BWAHAHA! He judges and he teaches judging. He also is tough on placing good legs and good hands. So I'm sure a lot of people complain."
What does "bwahaha" mean? My reading skills have been questioned here by someone else, so can I have a definition? As I said, Jimmy Lee is not my cup of tea, though I am sure some people enjoy him.
Tuffy Horse wrote: "No dear, I've been laughing at your pseudo Mr.Miyagi thing. What next are you going to tell us to wax on and wax off?"
I don't understand this either. Are you referencing "Karate Kid"? That might be the reason I don't understand.
Tuffy Horse wrote: "Nope, never said that or even implied it. I said she was better than the trainers pictured. I never said she was going to beat David O'Connor."
I am glad the child doesn't have to live up to those expectations. Let's post some photographs of David O'Connor so we can analyze his equitation.
I'm going to crosspost this from the pleasure horse forum:
Okay, I can't sit on my fingers any longer, LOL.
I'm going to try to be as objective as possible as I showed dressage and hunters all my life before starting to show at the stock breed shows six years ago.
Addressing your point about the improper equitation used by many riders and trainers. I think that many of us here can actually agree with that. There have been many debates, on this forum, among our own "people" on this issue. Many of us don't like hunching over, piano hands, heels up, etc. I don't think it's the point you are making here that we have the problem with, it is how you, and pretty much everyone on that blog as I read through the comments, are addressing it.
Rather than advice or opinions, they are resorting to calling us idiots, crazy, all sorts of curse words, etc. This, IMO, makes it very hard to take ANYONE's point seriously. The problem is, as soon as people from the "other side" come and address their points of view, everyone gets all defensive and name calling. It just loses all credibility at that point.
The other part I have a problem with, is that because of some bad examples, apparantly the whole pleasure industry has a problem with proper equitation and riding. I have had the honor to work with some of the top professionals in the industry and let me tell you, they would not be caught dead in the show pen with less than suitable equitation, and certainly instill that in their clients. The best trainers want their students to look good, as that will also make them look good. Have you ever actually watched an equitation or horsemanship class? You could balance a glass of water on some of those people's heads. Does this mean they all ride that well? NO. But just because there are some lousy riders in the industry, does that mean we all are? NO. Do I agree that some trainers need to set a better example with their equitation? Certainly. But the majority of truely talented, winning trainers, set a good example for their students.
As far as the horse, head too low, gait too slow, etc issue. Since they passed the rules on the height of the head, and the speed of the gait, we are truely improving. Yes, there are still some bad eggs, but the majority of the industry as a whole has improved so much. I know of a winning horse that happened to have his head slightly too low one day and got DQ'd. At my last show, my trainer lectured me on having my reins too loose, and said they would really knock me down in the show pen for that these days. If your horses head is too low, too far behind the verticle, moving too slow, you actually DO get penalized for it now. The majority of the horses now winning are natural, free flowing movers with level headsets. The GREAT ones do this on their own, out in the pasture, so nothing about it is manufactured at all, and those are the ones that are hardest to beat!
I guess what I'm getting at, is that this blog is finding bad examples and showcasing them as the whole pleasure industry. While I appreciate the lines as it does give you something to look at visually to help improve, there are a few photos in there that only are very SLIGHTLY off the proper lines and is hardly cause for an uproar. The thing is, if we were to now visit dressage websites or especially hunter websites, we could find just as many, if not more examples of poor equitation. I have been to many a hunter show where the rider should NOT be jumping yet and is a disaster waiting to happen. Many a dressage show with a lady flopped over bouncing around on the horse, trying to get around the pattern. But of course, there are the excellent riders.
Every discipline, every breed, has its bad examples of horses and riders, and good. To lump everyone in with the bad is unfair. Also, another thing to consider on the trainer issue. There are NO credentials or tests to certify a trainer, whether stock breeds, hunters, dressage, etc. I know of a 16 year old girl that calls herself a trainer just because shes brave enough to hop on something and steer it towards a jump. Not all trainers are gifted or talented, they do it because they can. Then, the unsuspecting newbie clients who don't know the difference, learn their riding "skills" from them. The fact is, there ARE trainers out there who think that jerking and spurring is the only way to get a horse to go properly, because that's the only way they know how. No feel for the horse or prior training on form to function, so jerk and spur it is. Until all breeds and disciplines can come up with a way to actually qualify trainers, unfortunately, this is how it is going to be. The trainers that I have ridden with are real, educated, talented riders, who's horses are happy and unintimidated with their jobs, and the trainers have been very successful as a result. Once again, this applies to the whole horse industry, not just stock breeds.
Trojan Mouse wrote: "It's your reading skills. A stump moving horse is one that moves like it's hitting a buried tree stump on every stride. It's a southwest term for a rough moving horse."
Oh, I am not that well-versed in regional dialect. Thank you for the clarification. As I brush up on my reading skills, per your request, you might want to brush up on your grammar skills--"rough-moving horse" and "stump-moving horse" need hyphens. You see, we're learning from each other. The community spirit is descending upon us.
Amy,
Very nice post. Pity your mouth foaming associates don't get it.
If they didn't supply me the material then I wouldn't have anything to use.
Equitation Queen:
>As I brush up on my reading skills, per your request, you might want to brush up on your grammar skills--"rough-moving horse" and "stump-moving horse" need hyphens.
That wouldn't be grammar, it would be punctuation. A hypen is a punctuation mark.
Adding a hypen can clarify a sentence's structure, especially when two or more adjectives are being used to describe a single subject, but in the case of a single or compound word adjective they are not required amd in some case might even create confusion.
Now we've all learned something new huh?
Snaffles- I am retracting what I posted earlier, as there was nothing you said here to warrant me calling you what I did. I do apologize to you for that, as I was out of line.
If in fact you were bashing anyone on another forum/blog, what-have-you, then surely you will get whatever may be coming your way for that.
However the sentiment still stands for BECG.
AS whomever else stated here, that in the land of Oz the horses do not move and are not judged like this- Be Greatful!
Many of us who do show, do not agree with the way the horses move, are judged or the classes pinned. Getting it changed is often time consuming, tedious and difficult at best.
Before we see any real changes, something drastic has to happen and usually not for the better.
I cannot post as EquitationQueen any longer, so I will use my name.
Trojan Mouse wrote: "That wouldn't be grammar, it would be punctuation. A hypen is a punctuation mark.
Adding a hypen can clarify a sentence's structure, especially when two or more adjectives are being used to describe a single subject, but in the case of a single or compound word adjective they are not required amd in some case might even create confusion.
Now we've all learned something new huh?"
In the interest of education, I will respond to this. And please, let's not fight over this as it is what I do for a living.
Punctuation is not separate from grammar; in fact, it is an essential part of grammar. "Rough-moving" is an example of a compound adjective that is composed of an adjective and a participle. It would always require a hyphen, whether it appears before or after the word it modifies (e.g., "The rough-moving horse..." or "The horse is rough-moving."). The same applies for the compound adjective that is made up of a noun and a participle such as "stump-moving." It's simple. In order to be grammatically correct, it cannot appear without a hyphen.
If you follow this simple rule of punctuation, your posts will be more grammatically correct (whether you believe it or not).
And that's THE final word on that subject.
Sug
cutnjump wrote: "As whomever else stated here, that in the land of Oz the horses do not move and are not judged like this- Be Greatful!
Many of us who do show, do not agree with the way the horses move, are judged or the classes pinned. Getting it changed is often time consuming, tedious and difficult at best.
Before we see any real changes, something drastic has to happen and usually not for the better."
Trojan Mouse might agree with me here, as she's done some judging. Maybe not.
BUT, when you're in the middle of the ring at a state 4-H horse show, purely disgusted with the quality of riding in front of you, there is no choice as to whether or not you give ribbons. Most of the kids have worked hard to get there. For some it will be the biggest horse show they will ever attend. For some it might be the last horse show they ever compete in with Old Dobbin or whatever horse or pony they're riding. It's unfathomable to dismiss a class without awarding ribbons. Watch the waterworks then!
Some don't have trainers. Some have hitched a ride to the show with a friend or just another 4-H member in the neighboring county.
I just don't see witholding a 50-cent strip of satin from a 12-year-old kid because I, Sug Casto, didn't think her riding was up to snuff, even though she was the best that day.
Sug
Sugs:
>Trojan Mouse might agree with me here, as she's done some judging. Maybe not.
Not me. It was Tuffy that posted about being a judge.
CNJ - I have tended to keep an eye on the Hack/Hunter classes over here and after I posted earlier I went and discovered on the Oz QHA website the same travesity of HUS in the QH shows here! Ack! At least they have the decency to actually admit that it is a "preliminary class for english riding disciplines."
In Oz the main classes in the ahows are Hack and Show Hunter/Working Hunter. In Working Hunter they go over fences. I'm trying to visualise the HUS horses going over jumps.....
Sug said:
I just don't see witholding a 50-cent strip of satin from a 12-year-old kid because I, Sug Casto, didn't think her riding was up to snuff, even though she was the best that day.
Yeah, that seems sort of harsh, but as long as folks ribbon, they'll continue on. Maybe like that person from Oz said, don't give a first place ribbon and explain why.
I've heard other judges complain that they won't get any more requests to judge if they don't pin or don't pin first place.
Somewhere, somehow, someone has to develop the courage to stop this craziness. It seems to me that as long as folks are only interested in placing, no matter the cost to the horse or the discipline or that they need a judging job to enhance their equestrian endeavors, this type of riding will never change.
There is NO EASY answer. However, nothing will change unless people complain. As long as the everyone ignores the turd in the punch bowl, there will still be a tendency to drink the koolaid.
anniebanannie said:
"Somewhere, somehow, someone has to develop the courage to stop this craziness. It seems to me that as long as folks are only interested in placing, no matter the cost to the horse or the discipline or that they need a judging job to enhance their equestrian endeavors, this type of riding will never change."
Yes Yes Yes!!
Carrie Giannandrea
Dances with Horses
Formula One Farms
How nice to see a child not only riding well, and her horse moving well, but she's also PROPERLY ATTIRED for a child. I'm sick of seeing 9-yr-olds in tall boots!!!!!
Also, do all stock horse HUS riders have yeast infections??? Cuz their hands are always flat and in their crotches. If I only had a nickel for every time my trainer said "THUMBS UP."
And the hunchy roach back posture... NO. I want to send them to chiropractors.
The slack reins, the heels up, the "headset".... I fucking HATE that word "headset," mostly because it implies what it really means... the horse is taught to HOLD its head there instead of actually using a real head CARRIAGE, where he's using his whole body - including his head - to MOVE OUT.
I mean, really, stock horse folks.... go watch some video of real freaking foxhunters. Your horses wouldn't stand a CHANCE with the HILLTOPPERS!!!!! Let alone jumping... anything.
"I have to disagree with the rehab app being a good example of a good rider."
Yeah, she's not great, but she's a helluva lot better than the other riders profiled.
Which is sad sad sad.
I wonder how many HUS riders have even HEARD the term "independent seat"?
As an AQHYA rider campaigning for the 2009 Youth world in hunter under saddle, hunt seat equitation, and hunter hack.... I have to say that you are ABSOLUTELY correct.
When it comes to the equitation and "training" methods of these Big Name Trainers. Not so much when you get to the headset, but more about that later.
It is absolutely disgusting to watch a Top Rider go around a hunt ring and look like that ride is the first time they have ever been ON a horse. Not pretty. Not pretty at all. There really is no excuse for nice equitation. I have a bad shoulder and off rib cage from an old XC fall, and yes it hurts like hell to ride properly, but I deal with it. No excuse for heels up, knee off, jack hammering all over a horse's back. NONE.
As for the horses not carrying themselves properly... now, I'm not sure what you have ridden, but my filly will not do jack unless you go to your leg first. You HAVE to keep your leg steady and on her at all times, lift up your hands, tug, and then give it back. The second you take your leg off, she shuts down. If you have no leg and all hand, she just gets pissed. She is very much driven from her hind end, the never leans on me.
However, I have ridden HUS horses that made me want to puke with the way you had to ride them. That isn't correct and it looks like shit. Rides like it too. All leg and all hand and you have to lug them along, leaned on you, just horrible.
I wonder how many HUS riders have even HEARD the term "independent seat"?
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Well... so far you know of one 17 year old who wants to do things correctly instead of random ass fixes and fads. Mine is not where it SHOULD be, but I evented for 7 years and didn't exactly have the best trainers. Now, it's different, and it's getting better.
Imagine that! A kid who WANTS to learn!
Not every HUS rider is the same. Not all of us are out for ribbons. Nor do all of us drink the kool aid.
Thanks CutNJUmp - I'm glad you got what it was I was trying to say.
Tuffy,
Sigh,
I don't know why this si so hard for you to understand - yes I did disagree with Trojan Mouse over the initial pictures, but the main contention/discussions with the pictures I had were with you. When I made the statement about the duscussions about the pictures I was referring to you directly as you, not to TM, and not to you as the blog owner. YOU took that as an inferrence, and YOU called me a liar on an INETRNATIONAL forum because YOU didn't understand the difference.
Nice.
Snaffles,
I'm not the one with the reading comprehension.
You made a post slamming me on PHF before I ever knew the thread was up. Someone emailed me, telling me what a b*tch you were and let me know what thread you were griping about me on. If everyone else can connect the dots then you should be able to without this much drama.
Tracy Meisenbach
www.trinityapp.com
http://thehorsediary.net/ (updated 9-6-2008)
Really, all this back-&-forth about TMs, who cares?? REALLY?????
If you put your photo out there on the Internet for the whole world to critique....
Whatevah.
The point is, a lot of stock horse Wenglish people hunch their backs like hippy VW microbus drivers. Seriously. Next time you see an old VW bus, check out the limp hippy slouch.
Their busses move slowly and painfully, too.
:P
I just have to add, to the child riders credit, her horse is moving off it's rear end. The horse apparently knows how to use it, and does so frequently enough that the amount of muscling reflects that.
Look at the other horse pictured. They too should have nice rounded butts due to developed muscling from use. Instead they have that weird, downward slope to them. Paired with their low head carriage, they all look as if they are going to fall forward, ass over teakettle, if anything so big as a pebble is in their path.
And these are supposed to be hunters? Without proper muscling and with their heads hanging low, they don't appear to be able to make it over one fence, let alone several on an actual course.
What's even more ironic is that this rider is a child, who is obviously learning, while the rest are 'trainers' who should already know better.
Kudos to whomever is coaching/teaching the child.
Cutnjump-
I sincerely hope that you are referring to me as the "child rider".
Huntseatrider- the girl on the appy mare is the one I am refering to as the child rider. Is that you?
If not, I am not sure which one is you...
That appy mare is super cute, too....
She reminds me of a nice mare a friend of mine had in the late 80s.
Boy, is this blog ever hopping! Great blog, TJM. The reason I got the heck out of equines, (hunter/jumper/equitation/dressage/I fixed other people's problems) is all over this blog. Some people just don't get it. The only way to change something that is very wrong, is to get it out there. Talk about it, disagree about it. Maybe, someday, more people will get it. Someday. I am not holding my breath. This WP fad, is ugly, and embarrassing to the horses. JohnnieRotten said it. The horses are defeated. They look dead on their feet. Heads hang-dog, eyes lifeless. Those sad, twitch-less tails. I hear that, about some horses genetically having no tail twitch. Boy, they must really enjoy the outdoors. Lets be sure to get that into the gene pool! Tail-blocking is just plain sick. If dead tail is the norm, and is the accepted, ribbon-winning way to do it, god help those poor critters. Keep it up TJM.
To the horses, kind totally honest souls that they are. So much of their lives have broken my heart, watching them. The expressions on their faces. Temple Grandin gets it, and she's autistic. Ever read her book? Amazing. (No, I am not a vegetarian, but I can taste an unhappy cow. Pigs are not happy at all. Chickens are really f-ed up.) Some can see how an animal feels, some cannot, and never will. It's just not that important to some. And for others, it's a skill they weren't born with, and aren't interested in learning. Horses are the greatest teachers, but not all people are willing to learn from them...
I don't think everyone in WP is like this, at all. But what on earth is wrong with pointing out the flaws in the accepted standard? If there hadn't been so many fatalities in X-country this past year, would anything have been done about safety in this extreme sport? Calling attention to tail-blocking/soring/drugging is how the horses will ultimately benefit. What's wrong with that??
OK, I'll shut up now:)
Thanks again, TJM.
I want to make all these riders read "Happy Horsemanship."
And then "Centered Riding" and then "School for Young Riders" and then a whole bunch of George Morris.
Did I already say that somewhere??
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