Lets take this blog to the next level

If you have a photo of crappy show riding, know of a jerkwad trainer or judge, or someone in the show world that is an abusive piece of shit then send the info to me. This blog is not anti-showing, it's anti-abuse. So there is no truth to the claims from the TWH, ASB, western pleasure and dressage zombies that I'm trying to shut showing down. Instead I'm trying to make showing more honest and to get abusive practices out of the showring! Email me at shameinthehorseshowring@gmail.com



I have a request for my readers: If you have successfully rehabbed a show horse, or gotten a rescue and taken it on to a show career then let me know, I'd love to feature you here!






Sunday, February 1, 2009

Drugging, it's not just for racehorses anymore!




The stock horse show industry pisses me off for a number of reasons. The first being that they took a perfectly good product, the stock horse, and turned it into an artificially moving robot. They ride horses too young, which no self-respecting real horseman would do. They use bits and equipment that prove they don’t know shit about how a horse’s mind works.

But the worst thing they do is allowing a scope of drug use that would make an LA crack whore cackle with glee. They can pretend all they want they allow the drugs to make things better for the horse, but that is a load of bullshit. The best thing for the horse is for him to stay home and be treated in a familiar and quiet environment. It is not being stuffed into a trailer and hauled all over chasing points for some greedy asshole. Let’s look at the drugs the stock horse industry deems necessary in order to keep horses in the ring.

Phenylbutazone: AQHA, ApHC, APHA
Diclofenac (Surpass) AQHA, ApHC
Flunixin AQHA, ApHC, APHA
Ketoprofen AQHA, ApHC, APHA
Meclofenamic Acid: AQHA, ApHC, APHA
Naproxen: AQHA, ApHC, APHA
Eltenac (AQHA PENDING FDA APPROVAL)
Dexamethasone: AQHA, ApHC
Acetazolamide: AQHA, ApHC*, APHA*
Furosemide or Lasix: AQHA , ApHC, APHA
Isoxsuprine : AQHA, APHA
Omeprazole: AQHA, ApHC
Lidocaine/Mepivicaine: AQHA, ApHC, APHA
Firocoxib (Equioxx): ApHC


A form is not required for Phenylbutazone, Diclofenac (Surpass), Flunixin, Ketoprofen, Meclofenamic Acid, Naproxen, Eltenac, Acetazolamide, Furosemide or Lasix, Isoxsuprine and Dexamethasone to be used. In other words, you can needle up and don’t need to notify anyone.

*May only be administered to horses documented through DNA testing from a sample that has also been tested to verify parentage, to be positive (N/H or H/H) for HYPP (Hyperkalemic Periodic Paralysis) and such HYPP status must be noted on registration documents.

Looks like AQHA is the over all winner for drug use allowances. ApHC is a close second, and that is a recent change. Up until a year ago the ApHC had the strictest drug rules short of the NATRC. Now they are just as bad as the other abusive organizations that care more for the show ring than the horse.

The Pinto Assocation takes an odd stance. This is what their rulebook says:

1. A Pinto shall not be shown in any class at a show recognized by the PtHA if the Pinto has been administered, in any manner, any prohibited substance. A prohibited substance is defined as any stimulant, depressant, tranquilizer or local anesthetic which may affect the performance of an animal (stimulants and depressants are defined as medications which stimulate or depress the circulatory, respiratory, central or peripheral nervous system). Also prohibited are any drugs, regardless of how harmless or innocuous they might be, which may interfere with the detection of the aforementioned drugs.

That looks good, looks like they are taking a stand against drugs. But the next paragraph says differently:

2. The full use of modern therapeutic measures for improvement and protection of the health of the horse, including the non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs is permitted, unless the drug given also may stimulate or depress the circulatory, respiratory, or central or peripheral nervous systems.

Okay, so you can use drugs as long as you say it’s for the health of the horse. Chickenshits! Just ban the damn things and be done with it.

Oddly enough North American Trail Riders Conference, which hosts the sport with the toughest and fittest horses, requires that no drugs can be used at all. (ntrca web address)

Their rulebook states: A horse shall not be allowed in competition while under the influence of medication except as indicated above. Prohibited medications are not limited to but shall include any stimulant, depressant, anti-inflammatory agent, local anesthetic, tranquilizer, general pain killer, or drug which could affect the performance or well being of the horse and any substance that would mimic or mask said medication.

Ironic huh? Horses that canter slowly around the ring, maybe for 20 minutes during a class, get to use all kinds of drugs, but horses that work for 50 miles in all kinds of weather can’t even use bute. Could this be why Arabs, and not AQHAs, dominate NATRC? Could this be why the main stock horse breeds are not superior distance trail animals? The prevalence of drugs that are used to treat foot and leg injuries is proof that breed organization are promoting unsound conformations for the show ring.
Let’s look at what these drugs do.




Phenylbutazone: Pain relief from infections and musculoskeletal disorders including sprains, overuse injuries, tendinitis, arthralgias, arthritis, and laminitis. Like other NSAIDs, acts directly on musculoskeletal tissue to control inflammation, thereby reducing secondary inflammatory damage, alleviating pain, and restoring range of motion. Does not cure musculoskeletal ailments or work well on colic pain. Reduction of fevers. Antipyretic qualities may mask other symptoms; therefore, should not be administered for this purpose unless a veterinarian has concluded that the horse would not be able to eat or drink without its use or that the fever might hinder the horse's recovery. Side effects of phenylbutazone are similar to that of other NSAIDs. Overdose or prolonged use can cause gastrointestinal ulcers, blood dyscrasia, kidney damage, oral lesions, and internal hemorrhage, especially pronounced in young, ill, or stressed horses. Effects of gastrointestinal damage include edema of the legs and belly secondary to leakage of blood proteins into the intestines, resulting in decreased appetite, excessive thirst, weight loss, weakness, and in advanced stages, kidney failure and death.

Diclofenac (Surpass)is used for musculoskeletal complaints, especially arthritis (rheumatoid arthritis, osteoarthritis, spondylarthritis, ankylosing spondylitis), and pain management. Side Effects include: Gastrointestinal complaints are most often noted. The development of ulceration and/or bleeding requires immediate termination of treatment with diclofenac. Liver damage occurs infrequently, and is usually reversible. Hepatitis may occur rarely without any warning symptoms and may be fatal. Patients with osteoarthritis more often develop symptomatic liver disease than patients with rheumatoid arthritis. Liver function should be monitored regularly during long-term treatment. Renal Failure studies in Pakistan showed that diclofenac caused acute kidney failure in vultures when they ate the carcasses of animals that had recently been treated with it (see below at Ecological problems). Species and individual humans that are drug sensitive are initially assumed to lack genes expressing specific drug detoxification enzymes. NSAIDs "are associated with adverse renal [kidney] effects caused by the reduction in synthesis of renal prostaglandins" in sensitive persons or animal species, and potentially during long term use in non-sensitive persons if resistance to side effects decreases with age. Unfortunately this side effect can't be avoided merely by using a COX-2 selective inhibitor.


Flunixin is an NSAID, analgesic, and antipyretic used in horses. Flunixin is mainly used for colic pain, muscle pain, and joint disease, as well as to alleviate fevers and pain, and prevent endotoxemia. It is also effective in injuries of the eye. Flunixin should not be given for more than five days. Like most NSAIDs it can produce gastrointestinal side effects if the drug is given in high doses or over several days. Side effects: GI ulceration is the most common side effect, especially in the animal's large colon or stomach, and is most likely to occur if the drug is given for a prolonged period. Other side effects include kidney damage and bleeding problems. It should be used with caution in horses with kidney or liver disease. Flunixin does not treat the underlying problem causing the fever or pain, only the symptoms.

Ketoprofen is one of the propionic acid class of NSAIDS with analgesic and antipyretic effects. It acts by inhibiting the body's production of prostaglandin. Side effects include gastrointestinal ulcers, drop in red blood cell count (a result of GI bleeding), and rarely kidney damage, protein loss, and bleeding disorders. It should therefore be used with caution in horses with liver or kidney disease, or gastrointestinal problems. Additionally, it should not be used in horses allergic to aspirin.

Meclofenamic Acid is a drug used for joint and muscular pain. It inhibits the synthesis of prostaglandins. Like aspirin, Meclofenamic Acid has been demonstrated to reduce the cardiovascular and respiratory effects of experimentally induced anaphylaxis in ponies and calves by its antagonistic effects at high concentrations on histamine, kinins, and prostaglandins. It also has a transient effect on platelet aggregation, but unlike aspirin, does not appear to affect bleeding times. Side effects include hematologic changes (decreased hematocrit/PCV) and GI effects (buccal erosions, diarrhea, colic, anorexia, changes in stool consistency) have been reported. The diarrheal and colic reactions may be more likely in horses that have a heavy infestation of bots (Gasterophilus sp.) With chronic therapy, decreases in plasma protein concentrations may occur.

Naproxen is an NSAID commonly used for the reduction of moderate to severe pain, fever, inflammation and stiffness caused by conditions such as osteoarthritis, psoriatic arthritis, tendinitis, bursitis, and the treatment of primary dysmenorrhea. Naproxen can inhibit the excretion of sodium and lithium. Extreme care must be taken by those who use this drug along with lithium supplements. Naproxen is also not recommended for use with NSAIDs of the salicylate family (Aspirin) (drugs may reduce each other's effects) or with anticoagulants (may increase risk of bleeding). Naproxen preparations containing sodium are not recommended for use in patients with sodium-sensitive hypertension, due to potential adverse effects on blood pressure in this small subset of hypertensive patients. In August 2006, the Journal Birth Defects Research Part B published results indicating that pregnant women who take NSAIDs including naproxen in the first trimester run an increased risk of having a child with congenital birth defects, particularly heart anomalies.

Eltenac For use in the alleviation of inflammation associated with musculoskeletal disorders and controlof post-operative swelling, oedema and endotoxaemia in horses. Side effects are the same as the other things that reduce inflammation and swelling.

Dexamethasone is a potent synthetic member of the glucocorticoid class of steroid hormones. It acts as an anti-inflammatory and immunosuppressant. Its potency is about 20-30 times that of hydrocortisone and 4-5 times of prednisone. Side effects include stomach upset, increased sensitivity to stomach acid to the point of ulceration of esophagus, stomach, and duodenum. Osteoporosis under long term treatment, pathologic fractures. Muscle atrophy, negative protein balance. Elevated liver enzymes, fatty liver degeneration. Cushingoid (syndrome resembling hyperactive adrenal cortex with increase in adiposity, hypertension, bone demineralization, etc.) Depression of the adrenal gland is usually seen, if more than 1.5 mg daily are given for more than three weeks to a month. Hypertension, fluid and sodium retention, edema, worsening of heart insufficiency (due to mineral corticoid activity) Increased intraocular pressure, certain types of glaucoma, cataract (serious clouding of eye lenses). Dermatologic Acne, allergic dermatitis, dry scaly skin, ecchymoses and petechiae, erythema, impaired wound-healing, increased sweating, rash, striae, suppression of reactions to skin tests, thin fragile skin, thinning scalp hair, urticaria.

Isoxsuprine is most commonly used to treat hoof-related problems in the horse, most commonly for laminitis and navicular disease, as its effects as a vasodilator are thought to increase circulation within the hoof to help counteract the problems associated with these conditions. Side effects include an increase in the animal's heart rate, cause changes in blood pressure, and irritate the GI tract. It should therefore be used with caution if conbined with other drugs that affect blood pressure, such as sedatives and anesthetic drugs. Because it is a vasodilator, it should not be used in horses that are bleeding, or in mares following foaling. Isoxiprine is also a drug masker and can cover up the presence of other drugs in the horse’s system.

Lidocaine/Mepivicaine is a common local anesthetic and antiarrhythmic drug. Lidocaine is used topically to relieve itching, burning and pain from skin inflammations, injected as a dental anesthetic, and in minor surgery. Side effects include central nervous system (CNS) and cardiovascular effects – CNS effects usually occur at lower blood plasma concentrations and additional cardiovascular effects present at higher concentrations, though cardiovascular collapse may also occur with low concentrations. CNS effects may include CNS excitation (nervousness, tingling around the mouth, tinnitus, tremor, dizziness, blurred vision, seizures) followed by depression, and with increasingly heavier exposure: drowsiness, loss of consciousness, respiratory depression and apnoea). Cardiovascular effects include hypotension, bradycardia, arrhythmias, and/or cardiac arrest – some of which may be due to hypoxemia secondary to respiratory depression. ADRs associated with the use of intravenous lidocaine are similar to toxic effects from systemic exposure above. These are dose-related and more frequent at high infusion rates. Common ADRs include: headache, dizziness, drowsiness, confusion, visual disturbances, tinnitus, tremor, and/or paraesthesia. Infrequent ADRs associated with the use of lidocaine include: hypotension, bradycardia, arrhythmias, cardiac arrest, muscle twitching, seizures, coma, and/or respiratory depression.

Firocoxib (Equioxx) is an anti-inflammatory and analgesic drug. It belongs to the general class of drugs known as NSAIDs. The most common side effects are refusal of food and vomiting or bloat, but it is also associated with gastrointestinal, kidney or liver side effects. These are usually mild, but may be serious.

The two following drugs just piss me off. Neither should be allowed in the show ring because they serve no purpose beyond keeping horses unfit to show on the competition trail. Lasix and Acetazolimide are both drug maskers. They are both banned by the World Anti-doping League for good reason.

Furosemide or Lasix is a loop diuretic used in the treatment of congestive heart failure and edema. Side effects as with many diuretics, it can cause dehydration and electrolyte imbalance, including loss of potassium, calcium, sodium, and magnesium. It is especially important to prevent potassium loss, as it can cause serious problems. The drug should therefore not be used in horses that are dehydrated or experiencing kidney failure. It should be used with caution in horses with liver problems or electrolyte abnormalities. Overdose may lead to dehydration, change in drinking patterns and urination, seizures, GI problems, kidney damage, lethargy, collapse, and coma. Furosemide should be used with caution when combined with corticosteroids (as this increases the risk of electrolyte imbalance), aminoglycoside antibiotics (increases risk of kidney or ear damage), and trimethoprim sulfa (causes decreased platelet count). It may also cause interactions with anesthesics, so its use should be related to the veterinarian if the animal is going into surgery, and it decreases the kidney's ability to excrete aspirin, so dosages will need to be adjusted if combined with that drug. Furosemide may cause digoxin toxicity due to hypokalemia. The drug is best not used during pregnancy or in a lactating mare, as it has been shown to be passed through the placenta and milk in studies with other species. It should not be used in horses with pituitary pars intermedia dysfunction (Cushings). One of the most ironic things about furosemide use is that is requires you to stay out of the sun or you’ll suffer adverse effects. So using it, and racing or showing in the open means you are subjecting your horse to more problems and going against the recommendations of the drug’s use.

Acetazolamide is a carbonic anhydrase inhibitor that is used to treat HYPP (Hyperkalemic periodic paralysis)a genetic defect traceable to the Quarter Horse stallion Impressive. Acetazolamide is available as a generic drug and is also used as a diuretic. Side effects include numbness and tingling, and taste alterations (parageusia). Some may also experience blurred vision but this usually disappears shortly after stopping the medication. Acetazolamide also increases the risk of developing calcium oxalate and calcium phosphate kidney stones. Horse will experience more frequent urination as a result of using acetazolamide and should drink more fluids than usual to prevent dehydration. Acetazolamide prolongs the effects of amphetamines and related drugs as well as masking the presence of other drugs. It is also a mild sedative and can be used to create a lethargic horse. (Western Pleasure comes to mind)


This is the only drug, besides bute that any registry should allow:
Omeprazole is a proton pump inhibitor used in the treatment of dyspepsia, peptic ulcer disease (PUD), gastroesophageal reflux disease (GORD/GERD). Some of the most frequent side effects of omeprazole (experienced by over 1% of those taking the drug) are headache, diarrhea, abdominal pain, nausea and dizziness, although in clinical trials the incidence of these effects with omeprazole was mostly comparable to that found with placebo. Omeprazole treats ulcers, which can happen from something as routine as weaning or being hauled to the vet. It does not mask other injuries and does not improve, or enhance, performance.


I want to make it clear that I am not against the therapuetic use of drugs for treating horses. I am against the use of drugs to keep an unfit animal in the show ring. There is no reason that any type of drug masker should be approved. There is no reason that a drug that is specific to the treatment of a genetic defect should be approved. Acetzolamide bolstered the halter industry and kept horses that otherwise could not show traveling and being subjected to stress.I not against giving a horse a few grams of bute to get over a long trailer ride. Or treating an older horse that is stiff from mild arthritis. This is no longer the case. The poor breeding practices in the stock horse industry that make these drugs necessary tell us how little the organizations care for the animals they are supposed to protect.



Sources for drug information include The Horse.com, Wikipedia, Zoology Care, ApHC, AQHA, USEF as well as various veterinary manuals and publications.

103 comments:

GoLightly said...

Fascinating Stuff, Trojan.

Scary, sad and awful too.
No wonder the "stock" world is so completely screwed up. They must be paying some good bucks to the drug companies. Which, BTW, are some of the biggest corporations in the world.

Wow.

Poor horses. sheesh.

Gail said...

I agree that they allow too many drugs but... If you think drugs is the reason stock horses do not do better in NATRC, you really do not know much about form to function as you claim.

DressageInJeans said...

Kind of agree with Gail. Just because pleasure horses, who are bred to be lazy and slow, are often drugged, it has nothing to do with them competing in the NATRC. Often times your logic is flawed; you assume too much.

On the other hand; yeah drugs shouldn't be used. But what can you do about it?

GoLightly said...

Any of those drugs allowed in H/J? Not toooo many, in FEI.

Sorry, I'm losing the logic.
Just because they are pleasure horses?
That makes no sense.
"Just because pleasure horses, who are bred to be lazy and slow, are often drugged, it has nothing to do with them competing in the NATRC. Often times your logic is flawed; you assume too much."

It is what it is?

I understood, TJM. Kinda makes sense that the Arab would stay sounder, longer, without any help. Looks like some QH were bred to go lamer, quicker.

Now that's even a scarier thought.

(crawls back under rock.)

Trojan Mouse said...

Gail,

The reason stock horse don't do well in NATRC is because they have been bred away from a functioning form. Those big fat halter horses are conformed to do 50 kiles. In fact they are barely conformed to do a trip around the ring on a lead. Hence the need for drugs in order to keep them showing.

Now go back 5o years, before the halter industry turned the quarter horse into a feeder calf, and you could find qhs that could do distance trail. Heck any good southwest ranch horse was working those distances several times a week.

My point is that the creation and use of these drugs *allows* breeders to perpetuate poor conformation. Without the drugs these horses would be too lame to even consider showing.


Jean

OldMorgans said...

That is an amazing list of drugs allowed.
Today's stock breeds, bred for the show ring, do not have the build, conformation, or temperament for any real riding outside of any distance. Some are capable of strolling down a dirt road or nice trail for short distances. There are QHs out there however who can go the distance & do. My farrier has a ranch in Utah/AZ w/some very rough country and rides QHs. As he says tho, they look nothing like the ones in the show ring. His horses may be saddled up and going before sunrise & not end until way after dark. He doesn't feed them drugs as a regular thing either. But he doesn't start them as long yearlings & work them hard at young ages either. He wants a horse to be useable for a long time.
The show world is in a totally different universe...

sagebeasties.blogspot.com

ponykins said...

What I find amazing is that given the list of drugs available that we still see lame horses in the show ring. Think of what the poor things would look like had they not been given ANY medications. Probably couldn't move at all!

DressageInJeans said...

'The reason stock horse don't do well in NATRC is because they have been bred away from a functioning form. '

That's not what you suggested in the post. You suggested that they didn't do well because the association allows so many drugs.

You also talk about form for function. Horses like arabs are bred, and have been bred for a long, long time, to do ONE thing--distance work. They don't jump well, they don't do particularly well (in upper levels) in dressage or eventing. When you talk about national titles for open-breed competitions, Arabs can be hard to find. A lot of horses that do distance very, very well, don't do other things as well. (Not always. Just generally).

You also talk as if every pleasure horse who's older then ten is lame. A lot of assumptions... and very incorrect. Halter horses go lame because of conformation--PLEASURE horses, however, it is not always the case. (they usually go lame from being ridden at too young an age... which has nothing to do with their conformation or breeding). Almost every pleasure horse I've seen whos been trained correctly had no problem trail riding, running, etc. well into their teens and on.

Most of the time, these drugs are for horses with navicular, or arthritis. (I know they are used for other lamenesses in the show ring, but at upper levels I do not see it as much as you would like to think). They usually don't drug QHs and Paints to be pain-free, they drug them to be sluggish (in upper levels). When you're rich and you have a lame horse, you can just get another to take to the world show. But when you only have one gelding, and he's seven and showing a little lameness, and you can't afford to buy another--that's usually when people drug for pain, and they're usually at much lower levels--aka, not nearly popular enough to affect those being bred.

I do enjoy your blog, I just think you assume too often which destroys your credibility. You play on emotions rather then logic and fact.

GoLightly said...

"They usually don't drug QHs and Paints to be pain-free, they drug them to be sluggish (in upper levels)"

Oh, that makes me feel sooooo much better.

Not.

katphoti said...

Thanks for the detailed info on each drug, TJM. That's good info to know.

There's an anti-drug policy in the sore horse industry, but horses are never spot tested. That's another thing the USDA and other sound horse groups are looking to force into the system. Let's hope they succeed. Mostly the drugs are used to hype the horses, though--I have heard stories of people shooting cocaine up the horse's nose to hype them up for the shows, and this was in 2002. It's not all that uncommon, unfortunately.

DIJ said:

But when you only have one gelding, and he's seven and showing a little lameness, and you can't afford to buy another--that's usually when people drug for pain, and they're usually at much lower levels--aka, not nearly popular enough to affect those
being bred.


I have no sympathy for that person. If the horse is lame, then it shouldn't be shown. PERIOD. I don't care what breed. The show horse industry should showcase the best of our breeds, so if we're masking flaws, especially lameness that is probably bred into the horse as most horses without a lot of physical activity aren't going to be lame by the time they're seven, then we're only perpetuating the problem. I don't care if that person can't afford another horse. It does not justify supporting an industry that continues to breed lameness into the breed.

Plus, ANY horse shown is an example of what the breed should be. Therefore, if a lame gelding is shown at the lower levels, then it communicates to others that they can do the same thing. It absolutely DOES NOT make it OKAY just because the horse is shown at lower levels.

I do enjoy your blog, I just think you assume too often which destroys your credibility. You play on emotions rather then logic and fact.

This is a blog, so of course she can play on emotions. ANd she IS putting in fact. Are not her references proof of that? (Please tell me if I'm assuming wrong here, TJM.) She's out to educate, but she has every right to be snarky if she wants. It's her choice. If you want just the facts, then spend time on thehorse.com or other research websites. I think TJM's facts and information is extremely important, and her snarky comments make the blog all that much more interesting.

Plus, TJM said STOCK horses, not PLEASURE horses. I hvae friends with pleasure QHs that are awesome, but they wouldn't do well on endurance rides. It's ONLY because they're not fast enough, though--they could probably do the mileage just fine. I would bet my bottom dollar that most of the WP/Halter horses that we see in the show ring today would never make it more than a couple of miles at a trot on the trail, just because the capability has been bred completely out of them.

No More COWARDS said...

Talk about a sensationalist. This is precisely why this blog gets no real attention. Check your facts, and I don't mean WIKIPEDIA (which ironically is probably the worst listing of a 'source' you can get, most educational institutions do not even allow Wikipedia as a source for any type of research paper).

These drugs are only allowed in tiny amounts, and the amount allowed in the bloodstream is measured when drug tested and you are found positive if you are one iota over the limit. Check your rules before spouting off this silliness, and tarring an entire industry with one brush.

I am not sure why I even bothered to respond to this pathetic website that gets maybe 5 or 6 hits from the same handful of people who just want to sensationalize everything.

CutNJump said...

I have no issues with drugs for keeping the horses comfortable.

However when the side effects far outweigh the benifits, whether intended for us our our animals, I have to question the use of the drug and the FDA approval of such.

In the Arab world halter horses were given shots of vitamin B12 or a B12 complex for an added 'boost'.

It's not a drug its a vitamin. We are trying to keep them healthy!

At least that was what they were claiming...

*headdesk*

CutNJump said...

katphoti-
Mostly the drugs are used to hype the horses, though--I have heard stories of people shooting cocaine up the horse's nose to hype them up for the shows, and this was in 2002. It's not all that uncommon, unfortunately.



It's not uncommon at all. The Boggs' used to do it in the 80's and 90's with their Arab halter horses.

Of course this was before the shows started, you know, actually drug testing. They charged you a $10-$20 drug fee (for testing, should it be needed) but they never tested anything!

Now CH., Res. and three to five random horses-placing or not- are tested. Drug abuse suspensions are noted in the Modern Arabian Horse magazine published monthly by AHA and mailed to members. The arabs are making some headway towards cleaning up the breed and exposing the scum of the earth.

DressageInJeans said...

Katphoti,

I don't have any sympathy for them either. Never said I did, never said drugging was okay. Does anyone know how to read anymore?

And it doesn't communicate to others that it's alright. Want to know why? NO ONE TALKS ABOUT IT. It's more of a hush-hush deal, if it's over the limit.

But, you ignored the point of it--It doesn't effect breeding horses. THAT was the point. The horses that are lame enough to need drugs are not the breeding stock of the stock horse world (which the possible exception of halter horses). Which means... we are not breeding a horse that is bound to go lame. Like stated previously, which was ignored in my response, these horses go lame because they are worked hard to be ready for the 2-year-old classes. Not because they are bred for lameness!

I was explaining in what situations this was used--because TJM's thought of that every pleasure horse (or every stock horse--which includes reining horses, and cow horses--HM, I think they'd do just fine on the trail!) is incorrect. She spouts 'half facts'--she complains about the drugs being allowed in the show ring, but never ONCE talks about the amount that is allowed in the blood stream. That's important, don't you think? But it SOUNDS better, and more horrible, to leave that information out.

Of course she can play on emotions, anyone can. But like 'No more Cowards' suggested, if she wants more credibility, and more people to read, she needs to start telling whole truths instead just part of it to make everyone flip out.

Snark is not 'fine' and 'interesting'. Want to know why? Snark doesn't accomplish a damn thing except pissing off people who do these shitty things, and firing up the anti-show people. All it does is create fighting, and the horses are still being abused and drugged. Snark is a lot of talk without being an inch proactive. It is much easier to make fun of someone then it is to realize why they do something.. and try to convince them, through fact and logic, otherwise. Or to go out there and try to help FIX it.

Like I said, I think the idea of the blog is in the right place--but it is usually too whiny and blown out of proportion that there is often no credibility to what is being read.

Tuffy Horse said...

No More Cowards wrote:

>These drugs are only allowed in tiny amounts, and the amount allowed in the bloodstream is measured when drug tested and you are found positive if you are one iota over the limit. Check your rules before spouting off this silliness, and tarring an entire industry with one brush.

You're making such a stupid statement. The issue isn't what amounts the drugs are allowed to be used, it is WHY they are allowed at all. They are ALLOWED because people want to show unsound horses. That's it, end of story.
I vet teched in Texas. I can attest to the amounts of drugs that funneled into the Pilot Point/Aubrey area just to keep horses in the show ring. When a two year old is getting hock injections there is a problem. When halter horses are shown on pain killers there is a problem.

I am not sure why I even bothered >to respond to this pathetic website that gets maybe 5 or 6 hits from the same handful of people who just want to sensationalize everything.

I'm not sure why you bothered either, since you just made yourself look foolish. This blog gets 100,000 hits a month, which is way more credit than your paltry whining gets.


Tracy M

Tuffy Horse said...

DressageInJeans wrote:

>But, you ignored the point of it--It doesn't effect breeding horses. THAT was the point. The horses that are lame enough to need drugs are not the breeding stock of the stock horse world (which the possible exception of halter horses). Which means... we are not breeding a horse that is bound to go lame.

I'm sorry, but you are flat out wrong. I can attest to the numbmer of Zippo Pine Bar descendants, compelte with their upright pasterns and poor hocks, that were routinely shown on some form of drug. The pleasure industry have created a conformation where cartilage damage and joint abuse is prevalent. I've seen some of the hottest bred WP yearlings in the lunge line classes and you can hear their joints clicking clear from the rails. I can walk through the warm up pin and find joint nodules on hocks and knees on actively competing three and under horses.

The WP and HUS conformation being produced now is NOT conducive to good joint health.

Tracy M

Tuffy Horse said...

DressageinJeans wrote:
>She spouts 'half facts'--she complains about the drugs being allowed in the show ring, but never ONCE talks about the amount that is allowed in the blood stream. That's important, don't you think?

The amount of drug used doesn't matter because ANY amount of lasix or acetazolamide (which are drug maskers) is TOO much. Any amount of a drug to kills pain to such a level that a lame horse can be shown is TOO much. If the horse is ill then do the right thing and leave it at home.

I've shown for 30 years, including three day eventing and polo and NEVER shown a drugged horse. If the horse hurts it should stay the hell home. The fact that you and the cowardly one think that showing on even miniscule amounts of drug maskers and diuretics is okay tells us that the moral compass of the horse show world is pointing south.

Drugs are NOT okay in the show ring. End of story.

Tracy M

DressageInJeans said...

So... wait a minute. I'm wrong because you've seen inbred Zippo horses with bad conformation?

Ahaha. Again, logic deary. Please take a statistics class.

'I've seen some of the hottest bred WP yearlings in the lunge line classes'

Oh, wait. Is that the sound of young horses being worked, which I stated was the cause of the unsoundness?

'and find joint nodules on hocks and knees on actively competing three and under horses'

Thank you for proving my point! :)

Have you ever seen a horse on Ace? It's VERY obvious when they are... it SEDATES them.

'I've shown for 30 years, including three day eventing and polo and NEVER shown a drugged horse. If the horse hurts it should stay the hell home. The fact that you and the cowardly one think that showing on even miniscule amounts of drug maskers and diuretics is okay tells us that the moral compass of the horse show world is pointing south.

Drugs are NOT okay in the show ring. End of story.'

I am curious if you actually read posts, or if you just skim them so you can pick a bone with someone and try to point out how 'dumb' they are.

Me and Coward never ever once said showing on drugs was ok, or correct. I absolutely hate it; I've seen it too many times to mention. I've never once in my life broke a drugged or lame horse into a show ring.

Why don't you get back on track to what I WAS talking about--which was that you leave out information, and blow up situations to fire people up? That was the point, dear. I never once said drugging was okay.

Mary said...

DressageinJeans,
If you're referring to the ace on the list in the blog entry you're confusing acetazolamide with acepromazine which is a sedative.

DressageInJeans said...

woopsie! My bad. Didn't read the end of it, just the beginning. It's just called 'ace' in the show rings (boo).
Thank you!

Tuffy Horse said...

Dressagein Jeans wrote:

>Me and Coward never ever once said showing on drugs was ok, or correct. I absolutely hate it; I've seen it too many times to mention. I've never once in my life broke a drugged or lame horse into a show ring.

Then why make a statement about the AMOUNTS being an issue. Throwing a fit about a huge amount or a small amount makes NO difference. If the drugs are used then it is WRONG in ANY amount.
Did Jean list drugs actually allowed? Yes. Are the drugs used to mask other drugs, and lameness? Yes. Can the drugs cause long term damaging side effects? Yes.
Yet you accuse her of sensationalizing the issue by pointing out the registries are actually sanctioning abuse by allowing horses to be shown that are drug. And then you hypocritically say you hate drugs being used in showing.

>Oh, wait. Is that the sound of young horses being worked, which I stated was the cause of the unsoundness?

>'and find joint nodules on hocks and knees on actively competing three and under horses'

Let me clue you into something. There are a shit load of backyard bred horses out there, with big clunky legs and "unpretty" bodies that never have a lame day in their lives, even though they are ridden too young, by morons that have no clue about proper training. Why? because they have proper bone density and hybrid vigor from not being overbred.

I'll go one step further and cite WP bred WEANLINGS that are injured just playing in the pasture and spend their yearling year in wraps and getting surgery to remove calcium deposits and nodules.

It isn't the work. It's the poor structure of the horses that create the stresses. It occurs in every single breed that specifically breeds for a "type" as opposed for actual structural soundness. It's because of the desire to create "typey" horses that inherited joint, foot and skeletal problems result. And because of the increase in early injuries the trainers have pushed for, and gotten, an increase in the drugs allowed for use. Go look at an AQHA or ApHC reulbook from 10, 15 or 20 years ago. The list of drugs allowed is very small. Today the drugs allowed have tripled. WHY? Because the big money trainers are riding horses that cannot handle the stresses placed on them. They are structurally unsound.

It's the same thing that created Eight Belles (RIP). She was highly bred for speed and got the poor legs that went along with the bloodlines.


Tracy M

love to ride said...

About the innuendo that no one reads this blog - I would say a lot more people read than post.
I have never posted here but enjoy the blog.

As an ApHC member, I was surprised by the recent drug change. Apps are incredibly kind and people friendly, have an amazing try and are capable of learning any event.

It saddens me to think Apps would need drugs to perform.

DressageInJeans said...

I would really like to be done with posting, but the clear lack of knowledge is a shame. Hopefully someone who reads this will learn something, because you clearly don't read what I write.

The statement about amounts was an example, as was the statement that horses are not winning in trail because they're drugged. It is to show that issues are blown up and really, just tugging at the heartstrings of people who don't know any better, or who already hate showing.

How is it hypocritical that I point out she wrote half of the truth? I'm allowed to hate drugging. I'm also a fan of the ENTIRE truth, not just some smacked-ass version so that I can enrage other people with snark and assumptions.

And let me clue YOU into something--there are a shit load of backyard bred horses who have 'unpretty' bodies and are being ridden at an age too young. And do you know why these horses don't get drugged? Because they're lame and on double-decker buses to Mexico. Correct bone structure has NOTHING to do with riding a baby before its bones have fully grown and fused. If you believe that correct conformation protects a colt from the breakdowns of being ridden hard at too young an age, then stop posting. It's got to be the most ludicrous idea ever. Does correct conformation and 'bone density' help? Of course. Does that stop them from breaking down when they're ridden at a year an a half? Of course not. BYBs are the people who don't have money for hock injections (at 800$ a hock) or drugs--so these poor ponies are just sold at an auction.

What kind of fantasy world are you living it?

All babies can get injured playing in the pasture. Again, your idea has too many variables for you to point to 'poor breeding'. Some of the best conformed babies get hurt--by playing in the mud, getting kicked. You also have to take into consideration all of the bone problems babies have due to over and under feeding--about 30% of babies have some kind of issue with their bones because they're pumped with feed (aka, halter horses!)

Sorry honey. It IS the work. I've seen them ride TBs at less then a year old. Are you telling me that's okay? And I mean hard riding, not just plodding around. But he broke down because of his breeding?

Are you kidding me?

I understand why drug use has tripled. Never said it was a good thing. There are plenty of problems with the WP show ring, as well as others, and the TRAINING issues is what is breaking these horses down.

Eight bells--again, too many variables. Could have stepped on it wrong, could have been poor breeding, could have been an injury she'd been working on. I do agree that because the TB studbook has been closed for so many years that the inbreeding is getting out of hand, but you can't just state one horse that is competing in a high risk sport anyway, and compare it to a WP horse and say that the breeding is going bad. Your logic is faulty.

All the things you posted are the exact reason I posted in the first place.

Too. Many. Assumptions.

Tuffy Horse said...

DressageinJeans wrote:

>Eight bells--again, too many variables. Could have stepped on it wrong, could have been poor breeding, could have been an injury she'd been working on. I do agree that because the TB studbook has been closed for so many years that the inbreeding is getting out of hand, but you can't just state one horse that is competing in a high risk sport anyway, and compare it to a WP horse and say that the breeding is going bad. Your logic is faulty.

It's not MY logic. It's the logic of a study done on horses of her breeding and their breakdown rates. It's the endless debates at AAEP symposiums, the reports from the vets that deal with the WP industry and the studies done by universities with equine programs. You're ASSuming the information comes only from me. It doesn't. As was stated by Dr. Tobin (Kentucky, wrote the drug standards for racing) the issue with lasix use is a DIRECT result of continuing to breed horses with the bleeder problem.


>Too. Many. Assumptions.

The ASSumptions are on your part because you fail to take into account the numerous studies PROVING increased drug use has changed the face of breeding competition horses. I dare say Dr. Tobin, as well as Tom Ivors, would laugh at your statements.

Tracy M

katphoti said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
katphoti said...

Oops--had to delete my previous post because I forgot to finish a thought in one of my paragraphs.

WTF is your problem, DIJ? I will say this with absolute authority and being absolutely sure: ALL, and I mean ALL, of the Halter QHs I have seen are constantly lame. These are ex-show horses, show horses, and horses I've seen bred by well-meaning owners. THEY ARE BUILT TO BE LAME. Tiny feet, long pasterns, bulky bodies, downhill build...we can go on why these horses have so many problems. I get my mare's back worked on once a month at a group chiropractic session, and there is a halter mare that comes every time. She always has major adjustments, and they only ride this horse on short trail rides because she comes up lame. It all has to do with how they're built. If the industry would go back to the original breeding and correct confirmation then drugs would not even be needed, and there would be no need to regulate any amount of drugs in teh horse's system.

There is absolutely NO reason why there can't be a no drug regulation. Like TJM pointed out: endurance horses can't have any kind of drugs in their system, and horses are randomly tested at every ride. In the TWH sound horse world, NO product is allowed on the horse besides Show Sheen or fly spray, and it is NOT allowed on the legs. Even if you accidentally get hoof black on a white sock, you will be disqualified. The HPA only allows three substances--mineral oil, glycerin, and petroletum--to be used to lubricate the legs when the horse wears chains. Anything else is grounds for disqualification. There is no reason why the QH and Appy industries can't follow suit.

I show TWHs. They ALL are either barefoot or have regular keg shoes on. I use no gadgets (heavy shoes, heavy bits, etc.) or gimmicks (pain meds, soring, pressure shoeing, etc.) to do well. I use conditioning, exercise and a regular routine to make my horses show ring ready. But guess what? It's hard work. I could easily hype my horse up with drugs or use gadgets and gimmicks. It would give me a means to an end. But I would rather take pleasure in knowing that my horse is healthy and sound and I can still win. That's the problem with the show world today: it's about the ribbon and the money and is no longer about the pure pleasure and satisfaction of hard work well done. Therefore, everyone starts excusing things such as a little bit heavier shoe or a small amount of drugs in the horse's system. Then it starts to snowball to worse confirmation as rewarded by the judges, then more drugs, then heavier shoes, then let's add chemicals to their legs to make them step higher, and things get insanely out of control.

Also, we're not talking about BYBs here--we're talking about show ring horses. BYBs are a whole 'nother problem.

And my young horses NEVER pop or snap when being worked in the round pen. That is SO not normal.

How is Tuffy Horse not reading AND understanding what you write when she directly quotes your posts and responds? We understand your point, and we know your point is that you think it's okay to have drugs in the horse in small amounts. Well guess what: THE REST OF US DON'T THINK IT'S OKAY.

Honestly, you're the one not making sense. You talk about too many variables. Well, why not make it one easy solution to take care of all the variables: NO DRUGS ALLOWED IN THE SHOW RING, PERIOD. Hmmmm. Seems to work for me. And I think most sound, natural horse owners will agree, no matter what breed.

DressageInJeans said...

'We understand your point, and we know your point is that you think it's okay to have drugs in the horse in small amounts.'

Here we go again! This is why you guys don't read my posts, so I'll repost:

'I understand why drug use has tripled. Never said it was a good thing.'

also,

'I'm allowed to hate drugging.'

ALSO,

'Me and Coward never ever once said showing on drugs was ok, or correct. I absolutely hate it; I've seen it too many times to mention. I've never once in my life broke a drugged or lame horse into a show ring.'

what is your problem with reading my posts?

I agree with you--Halter QHs ARE bred to be lame. READ MY POSTS.

I would LOVE to have drug regulation. My post had NOTHING TO DO ABOUT DRUGS! It was about facts, logic, and the lack there-of in posts. You guys really DO pick out what you want and then make a big stink about it.

All my horses are barefoot too, and I don't use any gadgets or pain-inducing methods. ...Your point?

'And my young horses NEVER pop or snap when being worked in the round pen. That is SO not normal.'

Never said it was normal, love. I said people feed them incorrectly which causes disorders. Please re-read.

'How is Tuffy Horse not reading AND understanding what you write when she directly quotes your posts and responds?'

She only directly quotes what she feels like fighting with, after I've proved most of her points wrong. What about her saying that correct conformation protected horses from being worked at young ages? She didn't respond to THAT, now did she?

'Well, why not make it one easy solution to take care of all the variables: NO DRUGS ALLOWED IN THE SHOW RING, PERIOD.'

I would love for no drugs allowed in the show ring. You just read what you wanted to read.

And Tuffy,

I agreed about the TB horses--did YOU read? I'm talking about Eight Bells specificially--they didn't do studies on HER, they did studies on TBs. I'll repeat myself, because you clearly did not read it the first time.

'I do agree that because the TB studbook has been closed for so many years that the inbreeding is getting out of hand.'

I'm not here to fight about horses being drugged, or not being drugged. I'm here to say, 'you assumed, and this is why'. You guys don't have to jump down my throat and twist my words because you have nothing better to do--frankly, it's very childish.

GoLightly said...

"You play on emotions rather then logic and fact."

Where the fuck did that come from?

Isn't it up to you, in the show world, to disallow this type of thing from happening?
It is what it is, and hang those who find it shameful?

It's emotional?

Um, no, it's facts. QH's used to be sound horses. They aren't any more. Breeders bred the legs and feet right out of them.

THAT is shame in the show ring.

For Shame on you, too, DIJ. Downplaying it, as if it makes no difference, to the horses.

Of course, young TB's have a higher incidence of breakdowns than WB's. They are worked, as babies. Their conformation can't protect them from greed.

That's pretty scary stuff. Too bad, DIJ, cause I thought you had more relevant things to say.

BTW, Eight Belles broke both fronts.
For Shame.

That's how this business continues, from intelligent folk like yourself, sounding as if NOTHING can/will ever be DONE about any of it.

This is why I got the heck out of the Horse world, myself. Because of people like you.
Feeling even more superior, now, are we?

Publish your findings of the "real" FULL facts on your own blog then.

Still so sure that the assumptions made are bullshit?
Talk about childish. Sheesh. Grow up.

as OldMorgans said:
"The show world is in a totally different universe..."

And I hope it implodes.

No More COWARDS said...

OK, then I hope none of you take an aspirin when you have a headache and need to go to work. No more Midol for your cramps so you can make it through the day, no more Tums after you eat a spicy dinner.

It's all a bunch of silly nonsense. The idea that all show people are demons who abuse their horses is ludicrous. The fact that a tiny handful of people actually read this silly crap and agree with it and feed the hate is even more ludicrous.

GoLightly said...

Oh, FFS.

Hey, drugs are good for you.

In moderation, when NEEDED.
My dear Granny basically pilled herself to death.

Feel bad? Take a pill. I HATE that attitude.

To heck with the right diet, exercise, whatever. We've made incredible strides in health care. We've also back-pedaled madly.

Did you read about the lab-rat strain that is genetically resistant to toxic levels of endocrine system-toxic plastics/pesticides?
Yeah, they're using that strain to check out how toxic our environment has become.
Paid for by, TahDah, the plastics people.
I feel so much better.

Drugs are Not to show horses with.

I guess, the drug companies really are the good guys here.
They make the good $$.

So, Yes, keep drugging your horses, people. Keep it up! It's good for you and your horse, really.

BTW, since I stopped taking anything BUT aspirin for my migraines, they have abated considerably.
Poor Advil, they lost out on market share with me. Oh, well, the toxicity to your liver is inconsequential. As long as you feel better. WGAFF what happens down the road?

Howza about the antibiotic-drug-resistant microbes we've created? Through our rampant, foolish over- & mis-use of these wonder drugs?

"The idea that all show people are demons who abuse their horses is ludicrous."
Yes, agreed. That's not what this blog has ever, ever been about.
It's about the bad guys. Oh, right, none have ever, or will ever, exist. Silly ME.

Of course, drugs can be beneficial. DUH.
Midol never worked for me. Tums is a cover-up for a much bigger gut issue. Good luck with that. Have fun with your Crohn's Disease, while you're at it.

Och, ne'er mind.
Talk to the hand.

DressageInJeans said...

I did not downplay anything. If you would have read my post, you would have seen that it didn't really drugs, it dealt with the manner this blog explained them.

Tuffy Horse said...

DIJ wrote:

>I did not downplay anything. If you would have read my post, you would have seen that it didn't really drugs, it dealt with the manner this blog explained them.

That's so silly. The blog posted the actual drug information and which organizations allow them. So what is wrong with that?

Did you find an inaccurate drug description? I've got a vet book that verifies that they are all accurate.

She didn't mention amounts because amounts aren't the issue. The issue is that they are even used at all.

And the reason they are used is because people keep breeding horses that NEED the drugs in order to compete.

Tracy M

GoLightly said...

It's the "manners" of the facts, then, is it?
Not, the Matter, of the facts?

Maybe it's the facts of the matter, that you find ill-mannered.

whoa

katphoti said...

GL, good call on the drugs post. Mydol never worked for me either. I find that if I drink more water and rest or take a nap when I have a headache, I don't have to rely on any drugs to get rid of it.

As far as I understand, DIL, you said this:

When you're rich and you have a lame horse, you can just get another to take to the world show. But when you only have one gelding, and he's seven and showing a little lameness, and you can't afford to buy another--that's usually when people drug for pain, and they're usually at much lower levels--aka, not nearly popular enough to affect those being bred.

This sounds like it's an excuse and is okay for someone who can't afford another to show him using drugs. It sounds like you support it because you just gave someone an excuse to do it. Think about what you've written.

I try to avoid drugs for lots of reasons. I currently have plantar fascitis, and I am avoiding the drugs the doctor perscribed me so I don't get addicted. I am sick right now, so I'm taking Airborne instead of NyQuil because Airborne actually makes me feel better faster. My mother-in-law's mare could benefit from her pain being masked. But instead, since she's under my care, I have chosen to use natural supplements (Zerobute at first, but it's being discontinued, so now I'm switching to Cetyl-M and Devil's Claw Plus) that are rebuilding her cartilage and helping repair her joints. Now she's doing far better than she ever did on bute alone. Bute would make her woozy and it would wear off and she'd be in just as much pain as she was without it. Now she's on something that doesn't wear off.

So why is it that drugs are the cure-all of choice? Because society has taught us to be that way. It's far better to help our animals by breeding for correct confirmation and not allowing those who to use drugs to show a horse. Keeping drugged horses out of the show ring will force people to think about what they're doing and make them breed for better confirmation.

I also think the judges are to blame. If they would start placing horses that are not what's popular at the time and start placing correct confirmation and quality examples of the breed, then that would make a difference as well. We have the same problem in the TWH show ring--judges who reward animation,and therefore they have to sore them to win.

Overall, DIJ, if you have a problem with what TJM writes, start your own blog. Fill it full of facts and research (although TJM did a fantastic job of facts and research on this one). You have no right to sit back and do nothing while you bash someone for what you think is wrong--go do something to make changes.

GoLightly said...

It brings to mind the beautiful riff by the late, greatest comedian George Carlin.

Google "George Carlin Drugs" on you-tube.

It can sure apply to horses, too. Yes, folks, you breed a genetic disease, we'll "cure" it for ya.

My father has been kept alive by modern medicine, and by his own fierce will. For that I am grateful. That his health problems were caused by tobacco and alcohol, just pisses me right off. But he did get the diseases that received the most money for research. It's pure cause and effect, with people as the guinea pigs. Well, super-rats first. Unsound horses, first.

The rats I mentioned that researchers for the industry are planning to use, big brou-haha because some scientists are saying "NO" to using them? They are 50% infertile. They breed better than well, rats. Anybody remember some rather breathless scientific journals reporting decreased fertility in human males?

ANYway.
I love drugs, for their help, hate their harm. Using drugs to mask our mistakes, is just plain creepy.
So THAT's why they're so low and slow...

Oh, oh. sorry. Horses, people, whatever.

Drugs are medicine. Not to be used lightly, or casually, or instead of training.

DressageInJeans said...

Tuffy,

Just because she didn't post inaccurate facts, doesn't mean she posted the whole truth. Some organizations only allow these drugs in minuscule amounts. Doesn't seem so OUTRAGEOUS then.

I've dealt with all of the shit in the industry twice over. I went to the University of Findlay for western riding--a shit hole, if I ever saw one. I saw horses drugged, spurred, ripped to pieces, tails doctored or broken. And when I describe and talk about Findlay, I also mention the one trainer that wasn't that bad. Why? Because it's the whole truth. To say that all the trainers I met were bad, to people reading, means that ALL of them are--and that's not the case. I write and tell things as I see them--I don't leave out crucial, or even information that may not be entirely inline with my goal, information to make my story sound worse. THAT was the point of the post. She does it in other posts; I'll pull them up if you wish.

90%, if not more, of the horses at the World and Congress were broke for 2 year old classes. But science says that some bones don't fuse together (hm, hocks!) until 3, 4, or 5 years of age. THAT is why these horses are all shit-broke lame. You absolutely CAN NOT say that drugs allow people to breed poor-conformed or poor-boned horses when they are breaking and riding them HARD at 1 and a half or two years of age. Until you can take that out of the equation, it is a mere assumption based on illogical facts. Can you see the logic of that? I'm not trying to patronize you; I'm trying to let you understand that there are a lot of factors and to make such a broad statement that these drugs are the reason is just absurd. I don't think drugs HELP--they cover poor training, sore horses, and abusive trainers. But it is a reality we have to face until we have enough people to do something about it. Taking all of the 'Good' people out of the show ring only leaves the shitty, abusive trainers--so how is that doing these horses any good?

GoLightly,
Read it again, I meant manner.
Very childish to try to point out a typo.

katphoti,

No, it sounds like I'm talking about the general public. It also was there to prove my point, that it was not effecting the breeding stock... which was the claim made.

I avoid drugs as well; with myself and my horses. My grandfather passed away last summer of cancer; my grandmother two weeks later of smoking-related diseases and issues. The incredible amount of drugs they were on was INSANE. My mother's a pharmacist, so most of the time I have a very clear view of the side effects and advantages of the drugs either I am on, or my horses. But completely avoiding something is just as bad as being completely dependent on it, so I use them in moderation--when I have to, for safety reasons.

Keeping drugs out of the show ring, I fear, is not going to force people to breed better horses. What will probably happen is more abusive training for a more 'broke' horse. I would love to see drugs vanish and every horse require a drug test for a few years, but it's just not going to happen, not yet. They'd probably start nerve-blocking horses... which to my knowledge, can not be tested for? (could be wrong). If that wasn't the case, then maybe they'd start draining the horse's blood again (if they can't use sedatives). There are plenty of terribly crooked ways for trainers to get around drugging. Hell, they still tie their heads up over night so the horse CAN'T lift it in the morning. I'm NOT saying drugging is the best alternative, just that getting rid of it is not going to magically make the show world a better place.

Take a look at what barrel racers are allowed to be on--that shit is INSANE. And it's LEGAL.

Judges are definitely to blame. So are the people sitting at home bitching about the show world. If the judge has nothing 'nice' to place... he can't disqualify the whole class. Then no one would show! If the judges have no nice horses to pick, then how do you expect them too? They HAVE called out for more forward motion, for lifting the heads, etc.... just the trainers are not listening.

I am not sitting back and 'doing nothing'. I have my own blog, I show my APHA horse in Registered APHA shows and kick ass without ever drugging, yanking, spurring, jerking, smacking. And know what this is doing? Letting others like me know there is another way from the norm. I've helped more then just a few people with getting their horse to perform in the pleasure ring without 'bumping them in the face'. That's a lot more proactive then writing a blog. Every rider I get to is one horse I help.

Kris said...

You said: "Oddly enough North American Trail Riders Conference, which hosts the sport with the toughest and fittest horses, requires that no drugs can be used at all."

This should be corrected. I don't know much about NATRC, but I think the organization that hosts the toughest and fittest horses, along the same line, would be AERC. NATRC hosts relatively tough and quite fit but *much better behaved* horses. :)

AERC also has a no tolerance rule - the only drugs that are acceptable for use are Sucralfate (only coats lesions in the proximal GI tract and isn't systemically absorbed) and Regumate (for obvious reasons).

Kris said...

Another comment: I wasn't done reading your post when I made my first one.

I disagree with the allowance of bute or omeprazole. There was a recent paper that showed that omeprazole can cause some pretty nasty electrolyte disturbances in a working horse, which makes sense when you consider it's a proton pump inhibitor. If/when it's use become prevalent, we may start to see some problems with it. I personally wouldn't want to risk it. Sucralfate or Maaloxx (both legal in all disciplines as far as I know) are good to use while competing, and then when you are done you can go back to Omeprazole if need be.

As for bute, you can't prevent those unethical @$$holes from using it for less than pure reasons, no matter what you do. And I know it sucks to ask an arthritic horse to compete or not to be able to give a horse coming off a trailer a little antiinflammatory. However, that's just the way it is.

Kris

Gail said...

So if the show world has bred the QH so they can't compete in endurance/trail anymore, why are not foundation bred QH and Appaloosas out there winning? I just do not believe drugging the QH is the reason they are not winning in endurance/trail, it is "form to function".

I would like to see all drugs gone from competition but todays society rely on drugs. They take an aspirin for any ache or perceived pain. And for those who believe in "natural" - guess what is in those natural products - natural drugs, which can also have side effects, etc

CHT said...

Here is a question: let's say you are showing at a big show grounds where you have to walk your horse A LOT on cement, and the footing is questionable. I know that I go lame walking on concrete all day. In that instance I think amounts of anti-inflamatories should be allowed as horses aren't meant to walk on footing like that, and mine sure aren't used to it and their feet can get hot. Of course on the other hand, maybe we should not allow the drugs, and change the show grounds to be more horse hoof friendly?

I do think that allowing horses to be drugged and shown can mean that horses that would be lame otherwise due to conformation flaws are winning and breeding anyway....but look how many people retire their lame mare to the breeding shed, so really how much of a priority is breeding sound horses anyway?

The amounts allowed are pretty generous...but if the horse is on Bute for example for a long time, it starts to build in their system and they will test higher even if given the same amount as another horse. I think this is a good thing as it will catch horses that are on bute all the time, but not as likely to catch the ones just on it for a day or two.

katphoti said...

DIJ:

Judges are definitely to blame. So are the people sitting at home bitching about the show world.

I am sure that most of the people that follow this blog are either in the show ring or were. I myself have been--due to my injury I am not showing right now. I only show at sound horse shows and I bitch plenty about what is going on in the sore horse industry. I put my money where my mouth is: sponsoring sound horse classes whether or not I'm showing, etc. I'm sure that most of the people here are angry because they continue to see poor equitation and horsemanship rewarded and want to get the word out there about it stopping.

If the judge has nothing 'nice' to place... he can't disqualify the whole class.

OH YES, he can. There is nothing in ANY rulebook that says a judge can't disqualify the whole class. I don't care what discipline. There's absolutely NO reason why a judge can't say stop, this is ridiculous, and ask all the horses to leave. In fact, I would LOVE to see a judge actually make a stand and do something dramatic like that. It would be a HUGE message to the show world if he did. I don't care what discipline. A judge doesn't have to sit back and place horses just because that's what's in the ring. The judge has the power to make those kinds of decisions, and it would be a relief to see a judge stand up against abuse and placing what's popular.

Then no one would show!

The bad trainers/owners/etc. wouldn't show, but the good ones would. There would be a lull in that particular industry, but it would come back around. It's happening in the sound/sore horse industry right now, in fact. I have heard that some sore horse trainers are starting to try to figure out how to train sound. Those who have had sound horses all along are starting to actually get placed because sore horses aren't showing up as much. It's going to change, but we still have a really, really long way to go.

If the judges have no nice horses to pick, then how do you expect them too?

I expect them to make the kind of stand I'm talking about and say enough is enough. We've done it with sound TWHs--in fact, in both NWHA and FOSH shows, obviously mechanical and excessive animation is frowned upon and the horse will be disqualified. There's no reason why the QH industry can't do the same thing.

They HAVE called out for more forward motion, for lifting the heads, etc.... just the trainers are not listening.

Then the judges are STILL to blame. If they continue to place horses just because that's what in the class, then they are sending a message to the trainers to keep going on with business as usual. Trainers will train to what is popular and rewarded in the show ring. If the judges keep placing those horses, then trainers don't ever learn.

katphoti said...

Gail said:

So if the show world has bred the QH so they can't compete in endurance/trail anymore, why are not foundation bred QH and Appaloosas out there winning? I just do not believe drugging the QH is the reason they are not winning in endurance/trail, it is "form to function".

You have an excellent point there. I have some information that might shead some light on it. A friend of mine who is doing endurance went to spend last weekend with a top endurance rider and have her horse assessed. She rides a TWH. He said flat out that her horse is a 100-mile horse. My friend got knocked down a few pegs because it turns the reason why she's been having trouble with it is how she's conditioning him, feeding him, shoeing him, etc. Everything she's been doing is great...for a show and trail riding horse. She has to change her whole routine to make her horse an endurance horse.

Anyway, he pointed out to her that her horse will be able to complete the Tevis (her dream ride) with no problems. He will also be a best condition horse at the lower level races. He said that her horse will never be a top 5 horse in the high level rides, though. The reason why is because of the Arabians. Arabians have been bred throughout history to have large nostrils and wide-set eyes to be able to bring in lots of air, their barrel bodies carry lungs that are huge and that are efficient in processing oxygen. Everything about Arabians show that they are genetically built for stamina and speed over extremely long distances. So Arabians will always win. I have seen QHs, Appys and TWHs place very high at endurance rides, but it's always an Arab that places first.

Foundation QHs were bred to run the quarter mile, and that's it. They were strong and sturdy horses that could work cattle, but they weren't breed for the kind of stamina and speed the Arabs were built for. I don't know a lot about foundation Appys, but I would imagine it was the same.

So, perhaps that information can help.

katphoti said...

CHT,

Where are there show grounds where horses are required to walk on a lot of cement? I've been to the Celebration grounds in TN--they don't hav a lot of cement where horses walk. Same with Westworld out here in Scottsdale, one of the biggest show venues in the Southwest. Plus, if a horse is that sensitive to walking on cement, then I would question that there's something wrong with the shoeing job or the horse in general. If a horse is properly trimmed or shod, then the shoe or hoof wall will protect the horse form lameness. Have the horse wear shoes with a proper farrier job, or if it's barefoot, have it wear boots until it has to go in the show ring. There are ways to get around it without using drugs.

We also cannot compare our own feet to a horse's hooves. We don't have the kind of structure a horse's hoof has and don't have the kind of built in protection to be standing for 23 out of 24 hours per day like horses do. Horses are built to stand for long hours--humans are not.

You just pointed out a good example, though, and I don't think you realized it: you were quick to say that drugs should be used to solve the problem. It's a good example of how our society views drugs as a cure-all, even if it's just masking the problem.

katphoti said...

Also, to all: NATRC's list of drugs that aren't allowed is about 14 pages, front and back, two columns on each page. They have just as large a prohibited drug list as other endurance groups. In fact, my friend learned that she can't even feed Black as Knight to her endurance gelding, because even though it's all natural there is an ingredient in it that is on the prohibited drugs list. If she stops feeding it to him a month before the ride, then it should be out of his system by the ride.

Also, not all man-made drugs are made from natural ingredients. Some are made in labs using different man-made chemicals.

DressageInJeans said...

Katphoti,

I wasn't pointing out anyone in particular. Just that a lot of people bitch about showing and don't do anything. ;)

Also, I think you're a little too idealistic for your own good. Judges get hired for a 2-day show, or what not. And if that judge disqualifies everyone, guess what? He wouldn't ever get picked for another show, EVER. Who the hell is going to throw their career away like that? The only people who would pick that judge is MAYBE the 4H's who hate WP and want the barrel-racing western ponies to win.

And sadly, it really wouldn't make much more then a ripple. The only way it would work would be if at the world show, EVERY judge did it. And since these judges are the same people who drug and doctor tails themselves... I'm not sure it's going to be happening any time soon.

And, the good ones?

When's the last time you saw a good western pleasure horse? I haven't seen a good one since the 90's.

I definitely agree that they should disqualify more then they do, but you're really missing a lot of the points of why they DON'T. If I'm showing my nice horse in a class of 15, and they disqualify a LOT of horses, and I get first out of, say, 6 horses--I only get two points as opposed to more. Why should I be punished for what other riders are doing? At bigger shows, disqualifying whole groups would be ridiculous--those show fees, stall fees, etc. are stupid amounts of money.

The problem is that most of these trainers are not going to change to train correctly, they're just going to find away around it. Have you met some of these BNTs? They're assholes, they're rough, they can be abusive--they really don't care about the horses. The only way to get them out, quickly and with the association really taking notice, is to flood the show ring with good, well-trained horses. Giving the judge a lot of good horses to pick from phases the shitty trainers out REAL quick.

A lot quicker then disqualifying and losing jobs and losing people because they paid 3,000 to show and got disqualified.

Trust me, I want to see the place clean up as much as anyone. But getting people out of the business is not really the way to do it. You have to creep over them and phase them right out--and there won't be anything to fight with because their abused, poor horses just aren't as good.

GoLightly said...

Good gawd, DIJ, buy a sense of humour.
sheesh.

Funny how people whine of childishness, when they have even less years than they realize.

I took no typos from your post. I posted in response.
Jestingly.
"Manner of posting."
is what you typed. I myself, personally, added an "S".
Wow, the liberties, the, the,
och, tragic drama/comedy..

(shakes head)

Horses have changed through the years, DIJ.
A lot.

Pardon my cynicism. Part of my dubious charm.

Trojan Mouse said...

DIJ,

>Just because she didn't post inaccurate facts, doesn't mean she posted the whole truth. Some organizations only allow these drugs in minuscule amounts. Doesn't seem so OUTRAGEOUS then.

You keep missing the point. Whether it is a large amount or a small amount it is still outrageous that someone is taking a horse that is unfit to show and drugging it so it can show.
That's the point. The horse does *not* feel well enough to show. It is being forced to compete when it is at less than optimum ability.

That is outrageous!

Tell you what. Go ask a military person the difference between getting caught after taking a hit off a joint, or smoking a whole bowl. Either one is going to find your ass in Leavenworth because to the miltary, the FEI and the Olypmic tribunal *amounts* do not matter. Presence does.


Jean

DressageInJeans said...

No, YOU keep missing the point.

The blog leaves out facts to make already bad things seem worse.

There, I took out all my examples! Is it kid-written enough?

CHT said...

katphoti, I didn't say drugs were the only answer, I cited improved show grounds as another. The Royal Winter fair in Manitoba requires the horse to walk quite far from the stalls to the arenas on cement. the Red Deer show grounds are also pretty much all cement unless you are in a show ring or a warm up ring. The hitching rings are cement.

I don't think shoes or boots protect the horse adequately from the increased vibrations going up their legs with each step.

I agree that in general drugs should not be allowed, but I think changes to show grounds and footing would be needed as well. For this reason I think low levels of anti-inflamatories may be humane and prevent long term damage from occuring in these situations. At FEI level shows, the footing and grounds should be at a higher standard, so zero drug tolerance makes sense.

Kris said...

katphoni:

First, NATRC and endurance are two very different sports that should not be confused. Yes, they both are associated with distance riding, but the similarities end there. That and the fact that both have a zero tolerance drug policy.

As far as TWHs (and other breeds) in Endurance....
Look at this year's year end national high mileage the top 3 horses IN THE NATION are non-Arabs. Well, the first place horse is a Colorado Ranger, and because of an open stud book, she does have some Arab in here - 1/4 i believe. The second and third place horses were not only not Arabs, but were gaited horses - a TWH/StdB cross and a SSH/TWH.

I have competed on Arabs, and I have also competed on TWHs and my newest mount is a Paso Fino. Your statement that nothing but an Arab can place first is incorrect. Look at the stats on rides, and you will see that non-Arabs do win rides. I even won a Best Condition on my TWH once (4th place finish). The numbers are small, but that's because most people doing endurance are riding Arabs. It's changing, and other breeds are gaining popularity.

As to your friend's horse being able to do Tevis - excellent. Good luck to her.

GoLightly said...

DIJ
Speaking of childish, I've copied this from your blog..
It is incorrect. But dropping a big name makes it correct, I guess, for you.
"I love figuring out why things work--thank you, Philippe Karl!). Why's this? Because a horse can't really flex his neck to the side AND bring it up."

Um, yes, he actually CaN. Just ask him.

Put some more hours and miles on your butt, before you make foolish sweeping "factual" statements like this..

You miss points, too, dear.
Keep learning, it may help. Why IS it that Horse College Graduates think they are the only "Know-It-Alls"?
jeesh.

And according to your very own blog rant, amateur owner/riders are pretty clueless. Giving them drugs for the show ring doesn't help.

Stop whining, you sound even more foolish. I've lost any interest in your blog. You have a very closed mind, for one so young.

Please "(TJM's) The blog leaves out facts to make already bad things seem worse."
Fill us in, then. I wait with baited breath.

Or, even better, write it on your own blog, where people can read your very own true facts. That some are incorrect, won't matter. You will have your adoring following, and everyone will be happy.
It sounds like you're afraid your following will think you win against drugged horses, which by your own admission, happens a lot.

p.s. WP, what wins today, is not dressage. You say you haven't seen "good" WP since the 90's. No kidding. The point was?
Oh, right, there wasn't one.

BTW, Long & Low is a tool, only. Overused, is just as bad for training as under-use.

Keep riding, keep learning. Keep your mind open.
Don't attack the wrong side.

We're for the horses here, or don't you get that either?

Life With Dogs said...

There in too much money on the table. Morality does not stand a chance.

DressageInJeans said...

Childish? How immature is it to go to someone's blog and bring up a point that is completely irrelevant to the one on hand?

How old ARE we, 12?

First of all, you are incorrect. 1) It is not my fact, but Philippe Karl's. 2) No, they really can't. They can turn their HEAD, but they can not lift their neck up HIGH like required in a upper-level dressage frame AND bend their neck. Not possible, love. So, again, before you make comments, maybe you should do some research, hm? Before you look, again, more foolish.

Second of all, you are incorrect again. I'm not a horse college graduate, I left because it was a crock of shit. 'So, again, before you make comments, maybe you should do some research, hm? Before you look, again, more foolish.'

'And according to your very own blog rant, amateur owner/riders are pretty clueless. Giving them drugs for the show ring doesn't help.'

Never said they should, honey. Just saying what happens. You probably wouldn't know; how many AQHA shows have you been to?

'It sounds like you're afraid your following will think you win against drugged horses, which by your own admission, happens a lot.'
...Huh?
I... do win a lot against drugged horses. I'm not sure of the point you're trying to make here.

'p.s. WP, what wins today, is not dressage. You say you haven't seen "good" WP since the 90's. No kidding. The point was?
Oh, right, there wasn't one.'

Of course there was, it's not my fault you cannot find it.

Long and low is not a tool, deary. In modern dressage, it's a tool. And modern dressage also believes in rollkur, forcing a horse into a frame, and shoving them onto the bit. Again, why don't you go a little deeper into a discipline before making hugely erroneous assumptions?

'We're for the horses here, or don't you get that either?'

I honestly believe you don't read a damn thing of what I've written. I keep my mind open at all times--nothing of what you listed above would consider me as a 'closed-minded' person. But... maybe to your logic, it does.

If you'd like to keep going so I can continually show you otherwise, I really don't have a problem with it.

But, really. Going to my blog to post things here (that you were wrong about) really shows who's the immature person here. (Since your logic is flawed... hint hint. It's not me!)

Life with Dogs,

Couldn't agree more! Sucks.

DressageInJeans said...

CHT,

I know what you mean about the pavement! The harrington DE showgrounds has pavement EVERYwhere. In Mullica Hill, NJ, not only is there old, asphalt, falling-apart pavement, there are ROCKS everywhere.

You know what foot is truly terrible? I went to the horse park of NJ, and the footing IN THE ARENA'S chewed up my show horse's hooves horribly! He'd gone shoe-less all season and I bring him back from one-day of showing at the regional show, and BAM, chipped cracked hooves!

Boo on show-ground footing!

I try to keep my horse in his stall, or I stand with him in the warm-up pen (if there's enough space). No need to walk miles of pavement, in my opinion!

DressageInJeans said...

Damnit, why can't I post all of these things all together. D'oh.

Kris,

I agree about the omeprazole. How is 'unethical' to drug a horse showing hock pain because he was trained incorrectly... but ethical to drug a horse showing stomach pain because he was trained/taken care of incorrectly? Horses coming off of omeprazole also, sometimes, are showing an INCREASE in acidity in the stomach--WOOPS. lol

Ulcers are due to a number of things; all of which can be prevented if proper care is taken. But if you want to stall a horse 24/7, then throw it on omeprazole because it has stomach ulcers... that's not really fair, is it?

However, I heard Sucralfate isn't that effective for stomach ulcers in the esophageal region of the stomach... have you heard/had luck with it?

GoLightly said...

Aaah, the life of the perfect & young and dumb poster.

Okay, Dear.

You keep on thinking wrongly, and I'll keep on thinking rightly
and we'll ALL be happy.

That you show WP, is tooo funny, really, Dear.

Enjoy your inaccurate ideas for as long as you can, and while you're at it
Please, give us a discourse on the failures of Reiner Klimke, too, poor soul!!
If only he'd read you first!

Quoting, again, because you don't read your posts very well.
"They usually don't drug QHs and Paints to be pain-free, they drug them to be sluggish (in upper levels)""
That's you.
You again.
"Halter horses go lame because of conformation--PLEASURE horses, however, it is not always the case. (they usually go lame from being ridden at too young an age... which has nothing to do with their conformation or breeding)"

Um,have you EVER seen post legs in QH's? Have you watched how the WP horse moves?? Heard of navicular?

Do you not know what the heck has happened to "Show" QH's today?
I sure as shit wouldn't pay money to attend an AQHA show, but I have you-tube.
I'd never set foot at an AQHA show, until they start caring about the horses, and not the flavour of the month.
The AQHA, giant monster that it is, is a joke.
Keep supporting them! Good for you.

You again
"It doesn't effect breeding horses. THAT was the point. The horses that are lame enough to need drugs are not the breeding stock of the stock horse world (which the possible exception of halter horses). Which means... we are not breeding a horse that is bound to go lame. Like stated previously, which was ignored in my response, these horses go lame because they are worked hard to be ready for the 2-year-old classes. Not because they are bred for lameness!"

No, it wasn't ignored, it's one of the many points you just don't seem to get.

"Possible exception of Halter Horses"????

POSSIBLE EXCEPTION? Read a previous post of your own. It's up above here. "Halter Horse go lame from conformation" REMEMBER??

Read some more on biomechanics of the horse. It may help.

I feel sorry for your closed mind.
I really, really do.

Good luck,MissLittleMiss DressageQueenofherownWarpedWrong
World.
Still hope it implodes.
Grow up, kid.

You may learn something. I know you quit your little crappy college.
Good for you. Too bad you quit learning somewhere in there too..

Would you like to hear my credentials?
TFB. You wouldn't appreciate them, nor, at your age, comprehend half of the geniuses I've had the pleasure to work with.
I'll ask Christilot, when I see her next, if your silly statement could be inferred from Philippe's text.
Funny, I know what she'll say.

Oh, right you again.
"Long and low is not a tool, deary. In modern dressage, it's a tool. And modern dressage also believes in rollkur, forcing a horse into a frame, and shoving them onto the bit. Again, why don't you go a little deeper into a discipline before making hugely erroneous assumptions?"

Talk about stupid blanket statements. Erroneous "facts". Holy shit lady, take some lessons from the greats, it MAY help.

You again
"They can turn their HEAD, but they can not lift their neck up HIGH like required in a upper-level dressage frame AND bend their neck. Not possible, love. So, again, before you make comments, maybe you should do some research, hm? Before you look, again, more foolish."

Not possible, huh.
Well, maybe if you weren't riding long and low all the time, you might watch some greats doing high-level collection work, softly and kindly.
They can.
You haven't seen it. Or ridden it. So how do you know?

Not everybody in modern dressage as you so knowingly call it, believes in RollKur.
To say that it's the normal,is just plain scary. It is NOT.

Not to the great riders and trainers, anyway. They do exist. Trust me on this. I watch them. They can, indeed, raise the horse's head, AND bend his neck.

WP is your thing. Good, stay there, it's so very, very much where you belong.

Winning against drugged, lame horses (what a whole 6 in a class not DQ'ed?)
must be so satisfying for you.

It's not about ribbons, you idiot stick.
It's about the horses.

GoLightly said...

Darn,I knew I had something else to say:):)
If you show AQHA
You condone AQHA.

Good for YOU.

Kris said...

DIJ:

As far as sucralfate and esophageal ulcers go, there are mixed opinions. On paper, sucralfate is supposed to require an acid pH in order to work. But if you have horses with known esophageal ulcers, treat them with sucralfate, and then do an endoscopy, you'll see that they're coated nicely. The wound itself creates a locally acidic environment.

Another "drug" that is completely legal that I forgot to mention is Aloe Vera juice. Lots of mixed opinions out there, but I've had it bring one of my high stress geldings with ulcers back on feed after omeprazole and sucralfate couldn't. Can buy it at Wal-Mart for about 8 bucks a gallon - I figure if it doesn't work you didn't lose much.

I don't really agree with you that ulcers can be prevented. The more research that is being done on them the less we seem to know. When we first started scoping horses for suspect ulcers, we'd find them, diagnose, and treat. Sometimes they'd get better, sometimes they wouldn't. But you can scope 100 completely normal, asymptomatic horses (performance, pleasure, and pasture ornaments) and you'll see ulcers across all groups.

In affected horses, one horse can have 2 tiny ones and if you treat them his symptoms go away. Another horse can have a disgusting eroded stomach and have no symptoms. I saw two colics a few weeks ago where a cause could not be determined, and ulcers were suspected. Both mares had ulcers when scoped (one a performance mare, one a broodmare) and were treated. Didn't change a damn thing. Ended up finding the cause in both, both were unusual and not at all related to the ulcers.

I think horses are symptomatic for ulcers need to be managed a certain way, but it's not so easily preventable as we once thought. My two boys that have them, one is a total worrier and a spaz. Calming him down has helped tremendously and I haven't seen symptoms in over a year. But I'd bet if we scoped him he'd still have some. My other boy is as mellow as they come - not at all one you'd expect ulcers in; he was an orphan baby, which are more prone to stress later in life - perhaps that's the correlation.

But, all that being said, I still compete my boys in Endurance (one was ranked 3rd in our weight class regionally this season) legally and on no drugs whatsoever. Diet and aloe do wonders, plus I add Maaloxx to their electrolyes which has helped their appetites.

DressageInJeans said...

Man, that's funny... You had to come up with all new stuff because I proved you all wrong last time. ;) What's even better is that you continually berate me and call me stupid, because you really don't have anything informative to say. Remember the fight on hand, dear! You deal with the topic, not the person. Thought I'd remind you since you keep forgetting. ;)

'I sure as shit wouldn't pay money to attend an AQHA show, but I have you-tube.'
Right there. Don't talk a damn thing about the Pleasure show world, because you don't know SHIT about it. You don't know what's behind the scenes, you don't know how they train, or what it's supposed to look like. I can watch a million bajillion shows on hunters, but you don't hear me blowing them up do you? Want to know why? Because I don't show hunters. Get off your ass and go to a show before sitting at home and stare at a computer screen all day and then bitching about the videos you see on youtube. Christ almighty. What, does that make you an automatic expert? Damn youtube.

I sure do show western pleasure. You, my close-minded dear, seem to think that all WP is bad. (See, THAT is the definition of close minded... thought I'd remind you because you keep telling me I am and not pointing out any reason why... I guess that happens when you run out of ammo.) I'm assuming this because you don't know what a AQHA show even looks like. ;) WP can be done right. It just doesn't happen often.

"Um,have you EVER seen post legs in QH's? Have you watched how the WP horse moves?? Heard of navicular?"

Post legs on Halter horses... which I said have crappy conformation. And Navicular is from two things--tiny tee-cup feet (again, halter horses), and being trained and beaten into the ground at a young age (...pleasure horses). And, I said that I dislike how WP is looking. So, you just proved my point! :D

And na, don't need to hear your credentials since I think most people that are professional in the business are pretty bad anyway. ;)

""Long and low is not a tool, deary. In modern dressage, it's a tool. And modern dressage also believes in rollkur, forcing a horse into a frame, and shoving them onto the bit. Again, why don't you go a little deeper into a discipline before making hugely erroneous assumptions?"

Talk about stupid blanket statements. Erroneous "facts". Holy shit lady, take some lessons from the greats, it MAY help."

...Ok, you didn't prove me right or wrong, you just called me stupid. Lol. You're really amusing. :)

But I'll explain. You can't work a horse in an upper level frame all day, whether or not he's 2nd level or GP. It's goddamn torture to do that. If you ask the muscles to contract and hold that position, you also have to let them stretch down (long and low), to get rid of the lactic acid and relax the muscles. Then you come back up again. I'm assuming you've never heard of that, so I'll let you slid. It's more of a French classical technique then German/etc..

"Well, maybe if you weren't riding long and low all the time, you might watch some greats doing high-level collection work, softly and kindly.
They can.
You haven't seen it. Or ridden it. So how do you know?"

I am totally excited for this one. :)

'Long Reining, the Saumur Method', by Philippe Karl, Page 21, second column:

"Bending the neck to one side which is incompatible with the simultatious contraction of the muscles on either side, compels one of them to relax, so that, thus dissociated, their resistance collaspes.
For anatomical reasons it is impossible for a horse to bend the neck sideways and at the same time, hold it up."

I won't say I told you so, just buy the book. It's amazing. <3

"Not everybody in modern dressage as you so knowingly call it, believes in RollKur.
To say that it's the normal,is just plain scary. It is NOT."

...Really? How many dressage shows have you seen? Ever been to a warm up ring, or do you just watch the 'main event' on you tube? Warm up rings, in dressage, are a scary place. Take a look at almost any non-classical dressage book--more then 50% of the horses are behind the vertical at some point. Not to mention flash nosebands, curb bits cranked to a sickening degree, hind ends trailing behind sunken chests, and 4-beat trots and canters.

'WP is your thing. Good, stay there, it's so very, very much where you belong.'

Again, what a close-minded statement. :) Very ironic that you continually call me close-minded, then bash my sport without any knowledge other then Youtube! :D

'Winning against drugged, lame horses (what a whole 6 in a class not DQ'ed?)
must be so satisfying for you.'

...What?

I never said that happened. It was an example.

"If I'm showing my nice horse in a class of 15, and they disqualify a..."

See that word, right in the beginning? 'If'? It doesn't mean it happened. Hypothetical situation to explain a point.

'It's not about ribbons, you idiot stick.
It's about the horses.'

Of course it is, that's why I show. I show and help others realize that there is a better way then spurring, yanking, kicking and pulling. You can't say 'you idiot, its about the horses,' ... and then not back that statement up. I have stated, numerous times, that my horses are put before any show. But, since you and your close-minded ways think that WP is so eviiiil and baaaad, then certainly I must be too.

'Darn,I knew I had something else to say:):)
If you show AQHA
You condone AQHA.'

Number one, I show APHA (...Because I have a paint), but have been to many AQHA shows with my old world show trainer (who had also been a Calvary horse trainer in the military as well as a dressage trainer), and current Findlay trainers, and then a current trainer in my area. I would have no problem with showing AQHA, because, again, sitting at home on my ass does not help the horses. Being proactive does. But I guess it's a lot easier to sit at home and bitch about a sport you don't understand then to get a horse and train it correctly and show it. :)

Showing the judges and everyone else that there is a better way, does.


Kris,

Interesting about the sucralfate. I've also heard about the aloe vera juice, but I wonder if it causes the acidity rebound effect, like calcium carbonate does. They have a few other H2 blockers that work pretty similar to GastroGuard, but they're a lot cheaper... Probably my first 'go-to' if I had to make the choice.

They have been doing a lot of research with ulcers, I agree. One of the main reasons is fasting--seeing that a horse can produce over 6 cups of acid in an hour, they get 'em real quick if you stall them and don't provide a lot of hay. Most performance horses get about 2 laps of hay morning and night (not all... just a lot that I have been around! 300 to count at Findlay's western barn... lol), which is not nearly enough to keep the ulcers at bay. I agree that some horses show symptoms and some don't, but that doesn't really mean that they are, or are not, preventable. Are they preventable 100%? Well, probably not, but I think for a performance horse, they are preventable by a HIGH, HIGH degree. If you know you are going to trailer your horse, if you have the money, use a tiny dose of gastroguard, or a antacid to prevent. Showing? Same thing. Never let them fast, if possible. Sometimes they stress and we can't do anything about it, but I tend to think that the large majority of ulcers (Whew, mainly in race horses!!) could be prevented just with proper management. Not to mention when you work a horse on an empty, acid-filled stomach... there's a recipe for ulcers!

'But, all that being said, I still compete my boys in Endurance (one was ranked 3rd in our weight class regionally this season) legally and on no drugs whatsoever. Diet and aloe do wonders, plus I add Maaloxx to their electrolyes which has helped their appetites.'

I love hearing these stories. :) My paint struggled with ulcers after being discharged from the New Bolton center for a colic episode, we treated, and he's been fine ever since. I may keep a bottle of aloe on hand just in case, maybe for trailer rides and stuff. Good info!

GoLightly said...

Okay, DIJ
What you seem to forget, is that you have no idea who the fuck you're dissing, by madly reading/quoting Philippe.
You Show APHA WP.
Wow, enough said.

I pulled that bullshit statement off your blog, to try to help you see how wrong you are capable of being. Your written interpretation of dressage, and yes, I do watch (and have ridden) much, much more than you-tube, is just plain skeery. I've ridden high-level dressage, worked with some great trainers.
I've learned, I never stop learning. You sound like you have stopped. That's bad.

No kidding, horses can't maintain high levels of collection for long periods. REALLY?

It's the manner in which you broadcast your wisdom that pisses me off. Your blanket statements show a complete lack of understanding of how the horse actually moves, and what he's capable of doing.
Good thing you are showing in WP.

Knowing that you can win at Olympic Level Dressage, because you know more than they do, is all you will ever need to know. Bashing on Olympic Level competitors makes you look OH so knowledgeable.

And yet, you even bash Saumur on your blog. Scary.

"Long Reining, the Saumur Method', by Philippe Karl, Page 21, second column:"

(see that?) LONG REINING.
aka Longing.
"Bending the neck to one side which is incompatible with the simultatious contraction of the muscles on either side, compels one of them to relax, so that, thus dissociated, their resistance collaspes.
For anatomical reasons it is impossible for a horse to bend the neck sideways and at the same time, hold it up."
Please, is that how you justify low head carriage?
Really? Cause that book says so, yup, right there! WHILE TRAINING THE YOUNG HORSE ON THE LONGE.
You forget that part, I guess.
Convenient.
Dressage takes years and years and years, to get to the level I speak of. You aren't there yet.

I didn't want to argue about this on your blog, I am too polite. Don't want your followers ideals dashed.
You began, here, by complaining about the manner in which facts were presented, here.
How does it feel to have the same done back at you?

Drugs in the show ring, not used for anything other than to win ribbons, is still bad.
Or, is it only bad if you don't win the ribbon?

"Really? How many dressage shows have you seen? Ever been to a warm up ring, or do you just watch the 'main event' on you tube? Warm up rings, in dressage, are a scary place. Take a look at almost any non-classical dressage book--more then 50% of the horses are behind the vertical at some point. Not to mention flash nosebands, curb bits cranked to a sickening degree, hind ends trailing behind sunken chests, and 4-beat trots and canters."

Did you notice you were smart enough to qualify that with "Non-Classical Dressage books"?
Maybe you should stop reading them??
Stop watching the amateurs? Sneering at them?

You obviously have been to all the wrong shows, dressage speaking.
But you do show paints, I'm not surprised you haven't seen any quality dressage being ridden.

Check out you-tube.

I'll let the Klmkes know that you've blown all their bullshit right out of the water.

I'm sure they are shaking in their boots..

I've heard enough to know all I didn't really need to know about your lack of a good base in dressage.
You've watched the non-greats.
Learn from the greats, and you MIGHT change your tune, but I doubt it.

Sorry Trojan.
All done,I promise.
We were talking about shame in the show ring.
There she is. Covering her butt with her book-learning.
Justifying low heads because, oooh, they "can't" raise their heads and bend their necks at the same time..
They can't??

Maybe you should drug them.

DressageInJeans said...

You have pointedly called me closed-minded and again and again do not say or give reason as to why. You bash my sport with entirely no knowledge of it. Why don't you answer that point, GoLightly? YOU are the one who is close-minded, not me. There, that's one point I don't want you to just ignore.

'It's the manner in which you broadcast your wisdom that pisses me off.'

...Who cares? You said I was incorrect. I guess now that I proved you wrong, it just 'pisses you off'.

'Knowing that you can win at Olympic Level Dressage, because you know more than they do, is all you will ever need to know.'

Never said that, dear. I just point out what I don't like about modern dressage. How is that any different from you bashing QHs and Paints at World shows?

Oh, that's right, you think WP is eviiiil. ;)

'And yet, you even bash Saumur on your blog'?

Scuse? When do I do that?

'Please, is that how you justify low head carriage?
Really? Cause that book says so, yup, right there! WHILE TRAINING THE YOUNG HORSE ON THE LONGE.
You forget that part, I guess.
Convenient.'

You are just really fond of talking about things you don't know about! It's really funny how you try to judge a book you've NEVER read. Page 21, where the quote comes from, is from the chapter, 'Elements of Equine Gymnastics.' He talks about methods of bringing a horse to hand--and not through longing, my dear, but through riding. I thought I'd inform you, since YOU like making 'blanket statements' about things you've never done, or never read.

Also, it's not how I justify low head carriage. It's how I teach my horse to work long and low correctly. ...Which was why it was in my post. The Post about Dressage work and long and low. YOU are the one who pulled it from my blog, YOU are the one that said, 'Um, yes, he actually CaN. Just ask him', and I was the one that said, 'no really, they can't. Here's the proof.'

Sorry you're so sore about being wrong, hon. Besides, even if the book DID deal with longing, it doesn't effect the quote. The horse still can't bend his neck and hold his head up. Or did you forget that? That's where you said I was wrong, honey.

'How does it feel to have the same done back at you?'

It's not really bothering me, since you've yet to make a solid point. I don't mind admitting I'm wrong (see above, where someone pointed out I'd confused the two 'ace' drugs?). You, on the other hand, like to gloss over things when I prove you wrong and jump on a different topic.

'Drugs in the show ring, not used for anything other than to win ribbons, is still bad.'

...Duh? When have I ever said it was good? Show me where I said /I/ would use it, or /I/ condone it. Oh, that's right, you can't. :)

'Did you notice you were smart enough to qualify that with "Non-Classical Dressage books"?'

I also have a few classical books on my shelves that have behind the vertical. I was picking the most prevalent.

'Stop watching the amateurs?'

I don't 'sneer' at amateurs. I sneer at people who are at an international level and have not even come close to collection. What's wrong with that, when I have proof to back me up? Again, how's that any different from what YOU do to QH's and Paints?

'You obviously have been to all the wrong shows, dressage speaking.'

Maybe I have, love. But YOU said it WASN'T happening. Just because you've been to a couple of shows where NO rollkur happens, doesn't mean it doesn't happen AT ALL. That was my point, thank you again for twisting it since I proved ya' wrong. :)

'I'll let the Klmkes know that you've blown all their bullshit right out of the water.'

You keep mentioning them like I personally attacked them? I think you just like name-throwing.

'I've heard enough to know all I didn't really need to know about your lack of a good base in dressage.
You've watched the non-greats.'

What? Honey, I've seen some great dressage horses (Um, Philippe Karl with Odin?). I never ever put down the sport of dressage, I just don't like most modern aspects of it (...like rollkur, drop nose bands, cranked curbs... which is prevalent not just at a little show, but on an international scene. Man, I sound like a broken record but you just keep missing the points!).

Again, your 'point' holds no relevance. You are having a really hard time with this.

'Justifying low heads because, oooh, they "can't" raise their heads and bend their necks at the same time..
They can't??'

Nope, they can't as we agreed on. Again, wasn't there to justify. Didn't you read my post? It was about long and low... which I do on my DRESSAGE horse. But you guys LOVE leaving out facts. :)

Oh, and that's right, we've been over it. They can't. Unless you think you know more about the horse then Philippe Karl does?

Please, tell me you do. I would really LOVE to hear that. Miss-You-Tube Queen knows more about the bio mechanics of the horse than Philippe Karl. LOL.

Of course you're all done, you keep running in circles. :)

katphoti said...

CHT,

katphoti, I didn't say drugs were the only answer, I cited improved show grounds as another. The Royal Winter fair in Manitoba requires the horse to walk quite far from the stalls to the arenas on cement. the Red Deer show grounds are also pretty much all cement unless you are in a show ring or a warm up ring. The hitching rings are cement.

WOW, that really sucks. I agree--there definitely needs to be a better setup at those places. It makes me wonder what the point is for having concrete at a show grounds. Although I guess perhaps because they do more than show horses there...? I can imagine Westworld becoming like that because they have the Barret Jackson Car Auction there every year, and I can imagine people complaining that there's too much dust on their precious shiny vehicles, which in turn would lead to putting in concrete because that event brings in so much money. FOR THE RECORD: I have NOT heard such complaints, I can just imagine it happening.

I don't think shoes or boots protect the horse adequately from the increased vibrations going up their legs with each step.

They can IF the horse is trimmed/shod correctly. The frog is a natural cushion, so if the horse is trimmed correctly then it can help with the concussions. Unfortunately, that is a major problem I'm sure you see a lot: poor trimming and shoeing. I see it just about everytime I look at a horse out here.

For this reason I think low levels of anti-inflamatories may be humane and prevent long term damage from occuring in these situations.

That's a hard call to make, but I would imagine as long as the drugs are considered natural rather than things like bute and other chemical-based drugs, then it would be okay.

At FEI level shows, the footing and grounds should be at a higher standard, so zero drug tolerance makes sense.

I agree with you on that. But I would imagine that they have other events there beyond horse events, and maybe that's why they have concrete...? Just a thought.

katphoti said...

Kris,

Your statement that nothing but an Arab can place first is incorrect.

Well, then, you can tell that to the top endurance rider that my friend worked with two weekends ago. I'm just passing on the info.

And I don't appreciate the obvious misspelling of my handle to pronounce it differently. That's really rude.

katphoti said...

DIJ and Kris, re. ulcers:

I had a gelding that developed ulcers because he hated the show ring. I started him out on a 2-week regime of Gastro-Guard, and then kept him going on grass hay (bermuda or timothy), rice bran, natural aloe vera juice, and beet pulp--it really, really helped settle his stomach. I have a friend who is our only natural TWH trainer here in AZ, and she uses Neigh-Lox. It's an amazing product, but it's really expensive. It's why I used what I did instead.

But in the long run I decided not to continue showing him and sold him to my favorite home for horses, which is a guest ranch in Kingman. I just decided that 1) I would always worry about him: is he going to colic when we're on the road, etc.; and 2) why put him through the torture? If he doesn't like showing, then get him out of the show ring. It was a hard decision to make, but it was the best choice I could have made for him. I don't see why people continue to show their horses when they are suffering. If the horse doesn't like it, find a different one. There are plenty of horses out there that are competative and can do a great job without that kind of maitenance.

katphoti said...

DIJ:

Childish? How immature is it to go to someone's blog and bring up a point that is completely irrelevant to the one on hand?

She's trying to point out that your information isn't perfect, either. None of us know all the answers, so stop acting like you do.

Also, horses CAN BEND AND BRING UP THEIR NECK at the same time. It's one of the best ways I can find to train TWHs to gait correctly under saddle. I use it when I do circle work, and it is also used in the reining world to develop the spin. (Which I never knew until I was at the Bucky Sparks clinic four weeks ago. I was so excited that I had been doing things RIGHT!) It strengthens their topline while teaching them to use their shoulders to reach to get length of stride.

katphoti said...

Kris,

Sorry--I didn't read your post about ulcers before I wrote mine. GOOD FOR YOU in using natural substances to help your horses, and that you are able to help them out without drastic measures. I find that aloe vera juice worked wonders for my gelding.

katphoti said...

DIJ,

"Not everybody in modern dressage as you so knowingly call it, believes in RollKur.
To say that it's the normal,is just plain scary. It is NOT."

...Really? How many dressage shows have you seen? Ever been to a warm up ring, or do you just watch the 'main event' on you tube? Warm up rings, in dressage, are a scary place. Take a look at almost any non-classical dressage book--more then 50% of the horses are behind the vertical at some point. Not to mention flash nosebands, curb bits cranked to a sickening degree, hind ends trailing behind sunken chests, and 4-beat trots and canters.


WTF????? What are you talking about??? The last several dressage shows I saw had NONE of that in the warm-up ring. There were no noses to their chests like we see in rolkur. In fact, the dressage people I work with stay as far away from rolkur as possible.

See? You are doing exactly what you are accusing GL of: making assumptions based on what you've seen. You don't say that you've done any level of dressage competition yourself, so why are you bitching about what GL is saying? Just because long and low is the norm in your discipline doesn't mean that collection in other disciplines is wrong. What's wrong is causing pain to the horse and/or promoting a characture of the breed in the show ring. The Big Lick TWH, the over-flexed and hollow backs of the ASBs, the post legs and monster bodies of the Halter horses, and the extremely slow peanut rollers of the WP world are caractures and are extremely ugly.

And yes, before you jump on my ass, when I use neck lifting and bending exercises with my TWHs, I release them and let them go long and low again. Both are extremely important in developing muscle tone and correct movement in a TWH. It depends on the horse as to how much long and low you work on vs. how much collection and bending.

GoLightly said...

Thanks Kat
I knew there was a reasonable opinion or two on this post.
As I say, done here. She reminds me of that kid who started a webs-site moaning that the rescue that employed her wasn't following her very own euthanasia protocols. The kid started a web campaign against the very rescue that had started her riding career.
The whining, self-righteous tone is very similar.

I wonder if Anky et.al. are shaking in their boots, too.
Doubt it.

Hey, Trojan, sorry again.

Back to the regularly scheduled outing of asshats.

Do RollKur, would ya?
Christilot, my very own dressage Goddess, is of course, adamant that it has no place in training. Of course, I concur. Poor training is out there, which is why I visit this blog.

Did you know that piaffe involves raising the neck, in extreme collection? Horses can even (are you ready?) do half-pass in passage!
No shit!
It's awesome, really.
The neck is "bent" ever so slightly in the direction of travel, WHILE the horse does his passage. The horse's head "hangs" naturally, through the entire movement.

And they aren't even drugged!
wow.

Ya know, I tried hanging out on mugwumps blog. I enjoyed the synergy of description between western and english, that is totally relevant to all GOOD training.
But, I kept running into people taking umbrage with my DIRECT questions, like
WHY IS (WP/EP) THEIR HEAD SO LOW??

One (only one) kind person answered. She didn't know, but was hoping it would change.
Mugs never did answer that question.

Still waiting on that answer.

Another Danish Dressage commenter on that board said (when I asked her opinion of the 2008 Dressage Olympic Placings, which I do think were a crock of shite)
"I think everyone who qualified, deserved a medal".
Hear, hear.
I admired her diplomacy. Her tact, and intelligence.

Wouldn't it be nice if we all could learn from that.


DIJ,
So,this was hypothetical, was it?

"I definitely agree that they should disqualify more then they do, but you're really missing a lot of the points of why they DON'T. If I'm showing my nice horse in a class of 15, and they disqualify a LOT of horses, and I get first out of, say, 6 horses--I only get two points as opposed to more. Why should I be punished for what other riders are doing? At bigger shows, disqualifying whole groups would be ridiculous--those show fees, stall fees, etc. are stupid amounts of money."

Right, okay, it NEVER happens. You were just making up a point to underscore whatever the hell it is you're trying to say. You're winning against drugged horses.

Dammit.
I'm done.

p.s. DIJ, you look like a good rider. Don't fuck it up.

DressageInJeans said...

katphoti,

I've heard mixed reviews on the Neigh-lox. It's an antacid, which only works for about 4 hours tops, at keeping the stomachs basic--then the stomach goes, 'oh crap! I'm not acidic enough!' and it produces MORE acid to overcome it. I think it's one of those products where you are A-ok when you're on it... but the second you stop you are going to be in for it!

The brans and the beat pulps are Fan-Effing-tastic. They have ridiculously high fiber contents, which helps coat the stomach to stop all that acid from eating away at the lining. I use beat pulp and Smart Digest Ultra on my boy--no antacids so I don't have to worry about taking him off it, and just something to give him a little more fiber and protection in the gut. It's pretty cool, would recommend looking at it if you get into that situation again.

'But in the long run I decided not to continue showing him and sold him to my favorite home for horses, which is a guest ranch in Kingman.'

GOOD FOR YOU. That's what I'm talking about--I don't think it's fair for a horse to be on gastroguard for the rest of his life because people make him do something that constantly stresses him out. I agree with you--if they don't like showing... then don't show them. :) Absolutely commend you on that!

'WTF????? What are you talking about??? The last several dressage shows I saw had NONE of that in the warm-up ring. There were no noses to their chests like we see in rolkur. In fact, the dressage people I work with stay as far away from rolkur as possible.'

Again, I understand that. But just because it's not at the local shows doesn't mean it's every where else. Ever taken a look into the dressage barns in England? I was watching an interview on a rider once, and in the background almost EVERY horse was behind the bit. BIG name dressage trainers condone this kind of training--And THAT is why you can't say, 'oh but it's not really in dressage'. Sure is, especially in the upper levels. That's why there are books about how crappy it's gotten, Like 'Tug of War', and 'The Twisted Truths of Modern Dressage'. It's not something that just a few people use, anymore. It's gotten big.

'Just because long and low is the norm in your discipline doesn't mean that collection in other disciplines is wrong. What's wrong is causing pain to the horse and/or promoting a characture of the breed in the show ring. The Big Lick TWH, the over-flexed and hollow backs of the ASBs, the post legs and monster bodies of the Halter horses, and the extremely slow peanut rollers of the WP world are caractures and are extremely ugly.'

I completely agree with that. I never ever said collection is wrong. Rollkur, behind the bit, nosebands to strap the horses face shut--THAT'S wrong. THAT is what I said is wrong--I have no issues with dressage.

"...I release them and let them go long and low again. Both are extremely important in developing muscle tone and correct movement in a TWH. It depends on the horse as to how much long and low you work on vs. how much collection and bending."

Again, I agree (minus the TWH part, because I dun' own one. :P ). I never said you stay there, I said it's something you'd revisit everyday. ;) Funny how the truth gets skewered when parts get left out!

Go Lightly,

''Did you know that piaffe involves raising the neck, in extreme collection? Horses can even (are you ready?) do half-pass in passage!
No shit!
It's awesome, really.
The neck is "bent" ever so slightly in the direction of travel, WHILE the horse does his passage. The horse's head "hangs" naturally, through the entire movement.''

...Really? Oh, I had no idea.
The raising of the head due to lowering the Croup is FINE. I never once said that a horse having a high head is a bad thing. What I DID say, however, was that you can't bend a horse's neck almost 90 degrees and have it high. The quote you picked out from one post was referring to another--it's not my problem you didn't read it. YES, horses can have a SLIGHT bend in the neck. And they can turn their head. But if you're telling me that a horse can have it's neck cranked to the side AND up at the same time, you're on something.

'One (only one) kind person answered. She didn't know, but was hoping it would change.
Mugs never did answer that question.'

You know, I used to hang out at Mugs too, but every time I read about the way she trains, I get a little turned off about it. Collection isn't holding their face and bumping; collection is so much more then a horse being able to respond to you when you ask it to stop or change direction or rollback. But alas, that's the western world--they have a teeny tiny concept of collection and anytime you mention 'dressage' they think some how that their horses are as collected as a Good GP horse. Nuh. Uh.

I too mentioned a few things on mugs (like when a rider ran his horse AND the cow into the wall), and got made fun of and the snark was outrageous. I had mentioned that cow horses is not my thing, and they took a strange glee in making be feel like an idiot. If she wants to set up a blog and listen to herself talk, THAT is what it looks like. I have no problem with listening to someone when their views are different. The problem, for me, is when snark is involved. It doesn't help the questioning person learn, and all it really does is make the 'snark-ee' think they're hot shit. I was completely turned off by her response.

But, what are you going to do? She's trained a lot more horses then me and I have to give her credit when credit is due, not to say I agree with all training techniques.

And the point about 'winning' against drugged horses-"Why should I be punished for what other riders are doing?" That's the point. Maybe I didn't explain myself as well as I should have, so I'll try again (sometimes I assume that everyone knows how AQHA/APHA point systems work, and forget how confusing it was for me in the beginning).

For every three horses, a point is awarded. If there are three horses in a class, 1st place gets one point and that's it. When you get to six horses, 1st place gets 2 points, and second place gets 1. When you get to 9 horses, 1st place gets 3 points, second place 2, and 3rd 1. This continues as the number of the horses grow in the class, maxing out at 6 points for a 1st place finish.
If I was in a class of 9 horses and I got first, I'd get 3 points. Woo! But if the judges followed the 'disqualify everyone' rule, and say the class was then 5 horses, I'd only get one point.
So my point was, why should the person who's showing correctly get punished for other people's crap? By 'ignoring' the crappy riders and allowing me to get 3 points, my horse is THAT much better in the standings. See how fast we could get rid of the shitty horses? The judges are TRYING to ignore in order to reward the ones that ARE trying.
I honestly do apologize--I continually forget that USEF, 4-H, and other shows do not point the same way APHA and AQHA do.

And, thank you. ;) I am not trying to!

GoLightly said...

Ok, DIJ.
The points I get.
I guess the point I don't get, and excuse me for asking again, is why show?
Why not, and this comes from a crotchety old fart, start a new Circuit?
I can't believe it, really.

I am from the dressage/H/J/3day world. I know good, too. It's certainly not unheard of in those sports, but certainly not what seems de rigeur, or everyday, to me.
At least, in the good barns, I was in. I'm sure there are still bad ones, but they really don't last.
You can't jump a drugged horse. Hurts. Yes, they bute, some more than others, but testing is pretty good.

I too felt weirded right out on mugs, which is why I weirded out on you. You sounded CrumIsh, sorry.
Manner of the Facts. Jeeeeeesh.

(I'm worried about me dad, arguing helps)

Crumble said something like "If you'd asked (the question you haven't answered either) respectfully", and then she asked a Different question for me??
Weird.
WHY ARE THEIR HEADS SO LOW??
The silence is still deafening me.
I cowered, grovelled, repeatedly. Nope, no reply. Still.

re: English Dressage
Two words, Christopher Bartle.
England is not the place for dressage. Wrong country, nothing new there.
It is for the 3dayers & Jumpers.
The mecca is Badminton, and the White City, and Olympia, and the Hickstead Darby. (derby, I KNOW)
not dressage.
Europe, yes.

"But if you're telling me that a horse can have it's neck cranked to the side AND up at the same time, you're on something."

No, You are on something wrong.

Have you ridden ANY High-Headed Horses? Are most of what you're riding built as I see these low headed horses today?
I've been under a rock for 20 years, 'k?
Juuust askin.

It's very sadly possible that you're right, for THESE breed/types of horses. Maybe they're lacking something structural, it's sure possible. Lots of them sure don't look "right" to me.
I know now, a low head is desired, and has been bred into, these AQHA/APHA/etc. horses. Took WEEKS of asking on mugs to find THAT out.

It just isn't true for the athletes that I've ridden.
NUh, uh. They sure could, and did, and can.

Something else they've bred out of horses, maybe. Besides their feet, and their health.
HYPP medication BAH. that is so wrong, on so many levels.
Sorry.
Old Fart Tired, and Happy (er) now.

DIJ, maybe ride a TWH. An Arab. A TB built like a deer.
You (might) change your stance.
Hope so.
For the horses.

katphoti said...

GL:

Ya know, I tried hanging out on mugwumps blog. I enjoyed the synergy of description between western and english, that is totally relevant to all GOOD training.

That's why I keep going back. Plus she's a phenomenal writer. I only WISH I could be that good.

But, I kept running into people taking umbrage with my DIRECT questions, like
WHY IS (WP/EP) THEIR HEAD SO LOW??

One (only one) kind person answered. She didn't know, but was hoping it would change.
Mugs never did answer that question.


I agree. I have seen her defend the reining horses in that they don't have a low head when being ridden, they have a nice even topline except when sliding (of course), but she's never answered the WP question that I've seen. Maybe we'll have to ask again....

DIJ,

Thanks for the comments. I'm glad you explained yourself better. Now I understand what you're talking about.

I have wondered the same thing about Neigh-lox, since it's basically Tums for horses. I know that my body was just getting more and more used to Tums to where I was going through a whole bottle in a week. I finally had to get a perscription to Nexium to actually help heal my ulcer.

My vet was very proud of me for figuring out a good regime for my horse on my own. :) He had recommended Neigh-lox, but I had to find something cheaper. But overall, Indigo is much happier in his new home AND he's one of the owner's favorites, which means a lot to me. It's a real tragedy because I was always in the top three with him in the show ring, and I could have gotten to to point where I could have competed at the sound horse championship shows.

I'm hoping with my foal that I'm breeding I will condition him to all the things I want to do with him as I'll get him started young. Start taking him to shows once he's weaned and handles well, etc. I hope to do lower level dressage with him. Who knows--maybe I'll start a new trend: TWH draft crosses for the show ring! HA HA!

As far as dressage and rollkur, I do believe there are bad methods in all forms of training. I find the worst are the Big Lick TWHs and the ASBs--the goal is to be as mechanical as possible in the show ring with no natural movement whatsoever.

I get Dressage Today and so far all of the photos in the magazine don't show rollkur-trained horses. In fact, there's a whole article in one of the magazines about over-collecting horses and how it can ruin their frame and how they travel. I don't think that rollkur is as common as it seems--it might just be that you're noticing it because you know it's wrong. It's like how I can look at a TWH in the show ring and tell you if it's natural, sored, or if it's mechanically trained. It comes from a trained eye, and sometimes I get so upset that I jump to conclusions.

That is TOTALLY weird about the points system. I gotta be honest--that really seems to buck the system and actually make people think the way you do. I mean, I would think the same thing: why should I be punished and not get the amount of points for the amount of entries if other's are disqualified? No wonder things remain status quo. They want the entries so everyone gets more points. That really sucks--I'm very sorry for the WP world.

Oh, and if you do try out a TWH, CONTACT ME FIRST! :) I would hate for you to end up going to a sore horse barn by accident and not see what the TWH is truly about.

GL (again):
I guess the point I don't get, and excuse me for asking again, is why show?
Why not, and this comes from a crotchety old fart, start a new Circuit?
I can't believe it, really.


Excellent point. It has been done--look at the sound horse TWH show industry. There are two huge groups, FOSH and NWHA, that have shows that are only for sound TWHs with their own HIOs and DQPs (industry terms--sorry about that). A sore horse trainer/owner/exhibitor wouldn't dare come to one of our shows with a sore horse. But we do commend those who go away from sore horse training and embrace them into our world when they See The Light. So, like you said, why can't the WP world do that? I really like your thinkin'!

Kris said...

DIJ:

Drug classes: H2 blockers are drugs like ranitidine, famotidine, and cimetidine (Tagamet). They're used in horses, and I believe the one of choice is ranitidine. Pretty cheap, but problem is that it requires dosing every 8 hours in order to get the best results. Not an easy thing to do management wise, but if you can do it you'll save a significant amount of money.

Omeprazole is a different class of drug - a proton pump inhibitor. It popularity in spite of cost is due to is once daily dosing. Gastrogard was the first brand of omeprazole, and several generic have since come out. Something to keep in mind though is that the drug has to be absorbed in the small intestine, and so it has to be protected and not degraded in the stomach. Gastrogard is still under patent, as is whatever they do to keep the drug from being degraded in the stomach. The generic forms are the correct drug, but they're useless as no one yet has figured out how to coat it to survive transit through the stomach and then be degraded where it needs to be. So to purchase anything *but* Gastrogard as far as proton pump inhibitors go is just throwing your money away.

As far as ulcers being preventable, I still politely disagree. :) I do think that with perfect management to prevent them, your chances of having symptomatic ulcers (which really are the only one we care about) are very low. That broodmare I mentioned before that was found to have multiple ulcers when scoped was fed free choice hay and was turned out on 60 acres of good grass. Mare hadn't even been bred for the past 2 years and didn't do a damn thing but eat. And even *she* had ulcers. We found them because we were looking for them, but that wasn't at all her problem.

On my main guys I compete, 3/5 have never shown any ulcer symptoms. The other two I believe I've mentioned: one is quite textbook and has shown no symptoms for over a year, nearly two years. The other is bizarre and trucks along fine and then he's *dying*, but some aloe will fix him right up. No symptoms from him for well over two years. All get 24/7 turnout, free choice grass hay, those that are grained eat Purina Ultium (best "grain" for ulcer horses, and by far one of the best diets on the market IMO), etc.

But I'd bet a large sum of money that at least one of them upon scoping would have one or two small ulcers. Would I be concerned? Not really. I'd venture to bet that some of *your* horses also have 1-2 small ulcers each. It just seems to be the plague of the performance horse.

I agree - ulcers in racehorses are totally preventable. That's a terrible life for a horse. The stress alone is bad enough, but the confinement and everything pertaining to the diet and feeding makes it worse. And racehorses make me think of EIPH, which is a whole 'nother can of worms.

Katphoti:

First off, tremendous apology for the misspelling of your name - I have a bad habit of skipping letters in the middle of a word, and substituting my own. I actually had to look back to see what I put, because I hadn't meant to offend, but I can see why you took offense, and that *does* seem pretty nasty of me. :)

On to the matter at hand. I'd LOVE to tell that top endurance rider that a non-Arab can win. One of these days, I may even prove her wrong myself, when I have enough time to condition on of my TWH boys to go the speed to win.

A lot of people who have been in this sport truly believe that anyone not riding an arab will never win. Some are even so arrogant to extend that to the belief that only an Arab *deserves* to win or get a BC. This is a large reason why many people switch to Arabs after a season or two competing on a non-arab. I know two riders in our region that in the past 6 months have bought an arab to compete "seriously" because they had become convinced their current mount wasn't up to par.

Right now, I'd say the sport is 90% Arabs. And of those 10% that aren't Arabs, the grand majority don't believe that their horse can be competitive, so they don't try. Or they're new and don't know what it takes to manage a horse who competes at the top.

So that's my soapbox. I've competed Arabs, TWHs, a QH, and a Paso Fino. I've enjoyed all of them, and if I had more time to condition, I think the QH, the Paso, and one of the TWH could easily win a 50 mile ride. But sadly, I can't do it safely, and none are worth the risk.

Kris

GoLightly said...

Oh, jeez and I forgot the English Grand National.
The old thing.
Under heavy attack, by many, many hand-wringers.
Still hard to watch, but it always was.
The courage of the jockey and horse are breath-taking.
And heart breaking, just like horses themselves.

Sounds good to me, Kat. Sounds good to me.
But, I live under a rock.
I doubt I will be able to do much, other than the usual, what I do best.

Bitzy Ditch out..

Wanna Reading said...

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katphoti said...

Kris,

I actually had to look back to see what I put, because I hadn't meant to offend, but I can see why you took offense, and that *does* seem pretty nasty of me. :)

Thanks for the apology. It freaked me out, that's all. That's kinda funny that you have a habit of putting in different letters. I'm just really bad at writing words like "conformation" and "confirmation." Not a good habit to have when you're a horse person. UGH. Thanks a lot, though.

WAY cool that you ride TWHs in endurance! I wonder if the guy my friend went to work with meant only in NATRC do Arabs always win...? I agree with you, though--if you don't have the time to condition them, then it's not right to compete with them. You'll just hurt them in the long run, and that's certainly not worth it.

Good soapbox, though. You are right--so many of us get beaten down by the belief that our breed can't do this or that. I used to be told by QH people that TWHs can do reining, pole bending, barrel racing, or dressage. And now, both FOSH and NWHA offer all four of those disciplines in their shows, and they're becoming more and more popular. With more conditioning and work, and with the right horse with the right confirmation (SEE??? I JUST DID IT!!!!) I mean conformation, then they could easily compete with QHs and Warmbloods. Although we don't teach our TWHs to trot and just replace the flat walk for the trot and the running walk for the extended trot. But I see TWHs get taught piaffes and all of that all the time without losing their gaits. It's part of what has inspired me to breed my mare for my "dream" foal.

I volunteered for a driving trial event this weekend. I learned that the driving world allows gaited horses in their venues. The gait just replaces the trot. I think that's way cool!

So yes, you are right overall. I think my friends horse would never be a top 5 horse in general, though. He's just not built for it. But her dream is to finish the Tevis, and now she knows she can get to that goal. We were very worried that she wouldn't.

Carrie Giannandrea said...

The best athletes in the olympics get to lose their medals when drugs are found in their system, even the equine ones.

Taking or giving drugs to horses is not the problem.....it is showing/competing them while they are on drugs.

Not Fair to those that show w/o drugs.

Keep your drugged up horses at home!

Carrie Giannandrea
Dances with Horses
Formula One Farms

GoLightly said...

Carrie, but why should they stay home?
If they are allowed to drug, they will.
Easier, quicker, cheaper.

That kind of system just reeks to me.

Kris said...

kat (save myself a lot of trouble and just shorten it, as i'm bound to slip again):

Not sure about NATRC either - I know theres a lot of QHs that do really well - the can handle the shorter distances especially at the low speeds.

I met someone today who thought endurance was all about the speed. That component is fun, but I never have the time to condition for it. I like the hell out of doing a 50 mile pleasure ride with some good friends (some may call that crazy!), and doing enough so that i place high at the end of the year. Two ways to place - speed or distance, and it's a hell of a lot easier (and safer for the horse) to train for the distance. I usually finish a 50 in about 7-8 hours - plenty of time to spare, and about 2-3 hours behind the winner. Lots of people in our region ride like that, so I get to share the trail and some interesting stories with some really great people. Best part about the sport.

I had a friend who was awarded a Youth Supreme Versatility title by TWHBEA when he was younger. Said he used to love taking his mare to barrel races - everyone would laugh at him on his little TWH.... until he got out in the arena and smoked them all. She had a *lot* of barrel points.

I always thought dressage on TWHs would be fun. One of my boys (by Generator's Gold Edition and out of a Pride's Generator daughter) I allow only to gait - he's incredibly sharp and a total clown, and rarely likes to play by my rules. His trot is big and not at all fun, and his pace is worse. He's one of my main mounts for endurance, and can hold an easy rack all day long, so that's what we do.

The other gelding (by Poison out of a Pride's Gold Coin mare) had a lot of soundness issues when I bought him. He loves endurance, but I have to pick my rides carefully, and I know he won't hold up to 50 milers forever, but we do them now because he loves them. Of course, no drugs - just some HA in his stifle and yearly hock injections to encourage their fusion, plus corrective shoeing for his disastrous front end. He's a gorgeous mover, and loves to jump - jumps like a TB, not like a TWH - he trots and gaits. Probably will consider some low level dressage or 3-day on him when he gets old enough to grow a brain :)

Driving - my Arab mare drives, so I thought I'd try that with the Gold Edition TWH gelding. Tried as a 2 year old to ground drive as part of his training, and lets just say he wasn't a fan. Gave him a few years and tried again. Never could get him to get the concept of it - kept trying to turn around and figure the whole mess out. Then he'd get really worried. Gave up - there's other things he enjoys much more. Maybe the other guy will take to it.

Christy Lee said...

Thank you for your well-researched information. The state of things is sad.

Christy Lee
*~Petals and Pine~*

katphoti said...

Kris, I'm not ignoring you--I'll email you directly about your horses. But MUST tell you that I LOVE Generator's Gold Edition--one of the best stallions out there for natural gait!

Jesse said...

"In other words, you can needle up and don’t need to notify anyone."

Um... If you're "needling up" phenylbutazone (bute) or diclofenac (Surpass), you're doing it wrong.

"Horses that canter slowly around the ring, maybe for 20 minutes during a class, get to use all kinds of drugs, but horses that work for 50 miles in all kinds of weather can’t even use bute. Could this be why Arabs, and not AQHAs, dominate NATRC? Could this be why the main stock horse breeds are not superior distance trail animals?"

This has far, far more to due with types muscle fibers than anything else. Slow twitch type fibers are long and lean, and used for endurance. Fast twitch type fibers are used for sprinting/heavy lifting. They also tend to be bulky - like stock horses.

Your points are valid, but poorly defended.

Also, I'm not entirely sure you realize that phenylbutazone is bute.

Kris said...

Needling up - Surpass, no. But Bute exists in a liquid formulation that is designed for IV usage.

emack said...

because i totally used dexamethasone for the horrible horrible reason of treating my horse's allergic reaction to some plant in her field.

GoLightly said...

Correcting my first post.
No wonder the "show world" is so screwed up.

Sorry, I can see everyone fixating on it, wanted to clarify.
Not that anyone will listen..

Drugs for Medical reasons, are completely fine. They are part of Horse Health 101. Keep him happy, healthy, comfortable.

For SHOW??
Um, no.

Tuffy Horse said...

Jessie,

>Um... If you're "needling up" phenylbutazone (bute) or diclofenac (Surpass), you're doing it wrong.

Uh no. Ask any vet tech. You can get bute in tablets, paste or liquid.

You can get diclofenac in liquid or gel form.


>This has far, far more to due with types muscle fibers than anything else. Slow twitch type fibers are long and lean, and used for endurance. Fast twitch type fibers are used for sprinting/heavy lifting. They also tend to be bulky - like stock horses.


This is another myth in the stock horse industry. Seriously, the only super bulky horses are the halter horses. Have you REALLY looked at the WP horses lately? They are thinner, rangy and long legged. Pictures here on the blog show it. Most of them have very refined necks and heads. I've seen several that I know are papered AQHA that look like anglo arabs. 3/4's of the Qh's in the show ring today have 1/2 or more percentage of TB blood. TBs do NOT have slow twitch muscling.
The same holds true in the reiners and cutters. They are NOT huge bulky horses. They have thinner necks and longer stringier muscles. They are nervy and refined.
I used to buy a shitload of appendix AQHA horses each year to turn into polo ponies. They can canter for 45 minutes at a time and trot for another 25. These are NOT slow twitch, feeder calf, bulk muscled horses. They are performance animals. So don't assign the heavy halter QH industry standard to all QHs.


>Your points are valid, but poorly defended.


I think they make a lot of sense, but then again I was a vet tech for 16 years and I've ridden, trained and shown all the different stock horse breeds as well as switched over and done dressage and three day eventing. There is a huge variety in every breed, but the breeds I see doing less and less are the ones using drugs more and more.


Tracy M

roanhorse said...

"Shame" Your screaming ignorance is just amazing.....best laugh I've had all day.

Back your truck up and get yourself aligned with those in the know instead of blasting this bullshit around on your "blog" i.e. toilet. LMAO

Working cow horses, today, are a far far cry from the overstuffed halter horses of yesteryear. We no longer have an all around horse, AQHA; they're specialized. We have animals who are in fact very well conformed to do their jobs in the working cow horse field..they are in fact, longer muscled, lighter and are in fact, tremendously athletic.

The Reiners are now competing at FEI levels and have been warmly received by members of USET and FEI committees.

NO they're not drugged..imagine taking a steer down the fence, going all out, and stopping and turning that steer to the center of the pen and circling it once in each direction.....show me a drugged horse that can do that and while their at it, pass the drug inspection, and providing a urine sample at the out gate....WON'T happen. Yes, there are "masking" drugs out there but show vets are also up on many of these that may be used.

Those horses that have LEGAL meds on board prescribed by a vet must have that declaration, a script, provided by the owner to the show secretary and manager. The owners must carry that script with them at all times while on the show grounds and be willing to provide proof of same when questioned by any member of the show committe or show veterinarian.

There are in here a very few responses, individuals that know more than you do...they're the ones that should have your blog. You're welcome.

Trojan Mouse said...

roan horse,

If ignorance is bliss you must be orgasmic.

If you don't think reiners are drugged then you have missed the huge debate NRHA has been having about imposing drug rules that meet FEI requirements. The general membership of NRHA has fought this for over two years.

A vet's recommendation to show a horse while it is drugged is just so much bullshit and shows how corrupt even that field has become. Drugged horses need to stay home, and like you they should not be taken out in public or left unsupervised.

Jean

roanhorse said...

Well, hey, Trojan ..where the hell have you been? If you're totally convinced that reiners and cowhorses can do their jobs with 10fold of drugs on board then you're as dumb as I initially thought you were. The reiners now are competing at FEI events and you must be truly convinced that FEI officials endorse the use of drugs, etc. What a nitwit, moron. There really are no words to describe you naivete. No doubt you're still convinced the sun rises and sets on your ass and you thought process.

Thankfully smarter individuals than you are overseeing the events that reiners and cowhorses participate in. Vets don't "recommend" showing a horse that's under a massive drug load. You're a liar. And you mislead people. There's no excuse for that.

Take your dog and pony show somewhere else preferably down the yellow brick road.

roanhorse said...

Trojan dear...vets do not pass drugs around like candy...you really believe their State Vet Boards would overlook this activity? Particularly if those vets are reported numerous times...jesus you're stupid...would you bet your career on not getting caught..no doubt you would but a bona fide practicing vet wouldn't risk it.

roanhorse said...

http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:fGkwy8PNEgEJ:www.aqha.com/association/registration/pdf/policystatement_08.pdf+percentage+of+reining+horses+being+shown+on+drugs&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us#2

The AQHA position on performance enhancing drugs.....

Tuffy Horse said...

roanhorse,

It's obvious that you do not know anything about the show world and the prolific drug use. And YES vets do custom mix drug combos for the BNTs. What the hell do you think Slo-Pro was? Or did you not hear about the miracle WP drug while living under your rock?

I vet teched for 16 years. I have seen vets dispense things that would surely get someone banned from the showring, if it was tested for. Don't even get me started on the anabolic steroids used in the halter industry.

It's very apparent that you really don't know anything. You're blathering here, and on the Wrench blog, and spouting nothing but ignorance.

So the AQHA has a statement about performance enhacing drugs. Big deal. So does every major sport. Doesn't stop all those baseball, football and basketball players from using. Doesn't stop the Olympic level riders from getting busted.

If you seriously don't think there is drug abuse in the horse industry then you must live in a paper sack. I have researched and written about equine drug abuse for decades. I have witness acounts and interviews. There is a long list of people in every organization that have been suspended for illegal drug use, some multiple times.

Why don't you pull your head out and go look at the links to the suspension lists. Most of those people were busted for show ring abuses.


Tracy M

roanhorse said...

Ohh Tuffy babes, grow a pair. If the drug use is as pronounced as you say it is than perhaps a undercover drug unit from the local Sheriff's department or local police department could give the folks on the show grounds a quick visit, since drugs are so OPENLY sold to exhibitors and trainers according to you. (Since the "designated, qualified people" aren't doing their jobs)I'd love to drop a dime on some of the guilty parties, and send an undercover unit over and tell them to check it out......peddling drugs is peddling drugs....no doubt a few should get hooked up and hauled.

I SERIOUSLY doubt the drug activity is limited to equine consumption. If you say horses are the only ones affected by illicit drugs at these shows then you're the 'effing retard of the year.

No doubt the exhibitors aren't feeling any pain either. Perhaps you should set up your "Anti Drug" tent and pamphlets on the show grounds.

Apparently vet techs have the worst rep for providing illicit drugs to trainers and exhibitors according to "The Horse". Bite me.

I could give a shit that you've researched mouse turds let along drug activity. A vet tech, big effing deal...You've decided to burn the rest of the dope pushers(vet techs), and trainers/exhibitors. If you've done all of this bona fide research then why hasn't it been published in a national equine magazine...hmmm? Why haven't you shared the article name and magazine name if it has been published????? Justa lot of blabba blabba.

No doubt you can't quantify it and you've yet to sell to an editor.

The "Quarter Horse Journal" runs a suspended person's list every month and lists the cause of the suspension be it drugs or otherwise. That ain't news.

Now, pull your head or whatever out of your ass and get over your hysterical whining. You and the Trojan Condom are two of a pair.

You've yet to change a dam thing with your supercilious babble ... keep strokin' it though..PETA loves you. Maybe the guns at the AQHA might take notice of you if you weren't such a authoritative stricken twit relegated to a back room; nothing more than a big gob of a mouth and shit for brains running around calling "foul ball". The only thing "foul" is you. On second thought, volunteer your services at the next big AQHA circuit..do something constructive with your time instead of whining full blast on this crock of crap blog. Maybe a little "ginger" under your tail would get you moving...does wonders for ASB's. Talk's cheap. Be something other than a pencil pusher or bean counter. You remind me of "Chicken Little", "the sky's falling, the sky's falling".......yup, it dam sure is.

You wanna make a difference? Then get the hell busy. Get off your dam chair and get out there and make some contacts with the powers that be in the show world. Share your concerns with them and your statistics. Like they don't know. What? They won't listen to you? I wonder why.

I don't know "anything" about the show world? You're great for a laugh..thanks. More ignorant drivel. I wouldn't expect anything more or less of an ignoramus. Enough of this nonsense. You and the Condom are a total waste of time. Just keep whining and pushing that pencil. Adios.

Tuffy Horse said...

roan horse,

Again, you show your complete lack of show ring knowledge. Playing Let's Ride and Barbie Riding Club does not make you an expert. For the record the managment at the OKC fairgrounds and the Will Rogers Equestrian Center, two of the biggest show facilities in the US, have sent out memos regarding the abundance of syringes and drug paraphanalia found in the dumpsters and manure carts after big shows. You must be so out of the loop that you don't hear the complaints from the stall managers at the shows.
You must stay very secluded under your rock because you haven't seen the comments about walking through the show barns and seeing horses attached to IV bags.


I've been published in Minature Horse World Showcase, Trail Rider magazine, Lippett Morgan Review, The Rocky Mountain Horse, DeQuarter, and many others.

I'm also a director of one of the big three stock breed organizations. I voted AGAINST the change in the drug rules that allowed 13 more drugs onto the approved list. I've worked to improve humane treatment of the showhorse through introducing rules and policies. The BOD minutes reflect the efforts I've made to help the industry.

What have you done beside troll around here and spend your days with your head up the Wrench's butt?

Tracy M

roanhorse said...

Tuffy babe...none of your published material has appeared in a weighted magazine...I don't know where you hang out but apparently you're the one setting IV lines on horses at horse shows, huh?

Abuse complaints are dealt with swiftly at any of our shows... where where the hell have you been you elementary dweeb. No doubt stuck at some irrelevant high tailers barn.

I could give a rip that you're the "director" of any stock horse association; if that were true, you'd say who it is... or are you afraid of a little followup? I love to oblige and let them know of your nasty attitude and rotten behavior.

Most of the directors I personally know, both emeritus and those currently holding their positions, act in a professional manner in their deportment and attitude...you share none of that...just a nasty, mouthy little camel driver. Yah, I'll remember you. If you had any class at all you wouldn't be trolling around here looking for support from your fellow ignoramuses.

Thank god individuals smarter than you'll ever be govern our association. Keep your reactive self in the back room where you belong.

My "lack of show ring knowledge" includes multiple wins at our World Show. It also includes working directly with our Board of Directors and Judges committee on our Regional shows.

Don't give me any of your sanctimonious remarks about "how I should know this or that"...you're one to talk.

Oh, what else have you done other than "troll around here with your head up the Condom's butt"? You really believe you'll make a difference on this blog? Jesus how totally stupid.

By the way, we'll be looking for you as you peddle drugs from the trunk of your car. Ride your stick horse into the sunset, please. What a crashing bore.

Redneck Girl said...

Roanhorse,

You really are a moron. You're trying to come off as Simon Cowell and only succeeding to stupid wannabee.
You trolled over here because your puppet master got her strings yanked and you haven't provided any productive commentary.
You're not hip, you're not with it, you're not in the know. You're basically a bottom feeding ignoramus that doesn't have the following or knowledge to start your only blog. Those that can't do, teach. Those that can't blog, troll.

If you're such a winner then use your real name when you sign your posts. Looks like you're more of a loser that frantically watches The Soup, trying to score catchy phrases to try out on your slope headed family. Perhaps if you hadn't ingested so much Slo-Pro you could string two sentences together that didn't sound like a bad pick-up line at a bar. And calling women "babe" in order to seem like a macho man tells me that the only thing you're doing with your hand is racing the one eyed pony.

roanhorse said...

Redneck babes, that you are...notorious for trailer park living, inbred relatives, (no doubt you married your first cousin)no teeth, and your idea of spa treatment is one in specializing in beer baths. Bet that outdoor pool of yours is no doubt your grandma's reject bathtub.

Word is that class A show horse of yours just won the local mule pageant after you loaded it with ace. Probably slept for a week. Don't furget to take down those IV lines and bottle. Or the DQP will catch you; oh, that's right, you don't have any of those do you...! Well dam, "Shame in the show pen" on yah!!!

Yah, I'm a bottom feeder alright, right behind your knuckle dragging cousin. Do us a favor and have your body shaved..your armpit hair covers that upper lip of yours. Or is that your toupee?

One thing is for certain, Rednecks aren't regarded as "with it" in spite of that overinflated ego of yours...just so much methane gas n' bullshit. Livin' large in the swamps ain't conducive to enhancing cranial capacity. I'm really impressed.

Do yourself a favor, change that screen name..you really believe that it enhances your image? Best dam laugh I've had all day....take your own advice and list whatever alias as your "real name" other than loser. Plenty of jaw, commoner insults and no brains....Your welcome.

Back to the moonshine patch with ya. Aren't you gonna run a load at midnite? Thought so.

Later...oh by the way, lay some of that golden show pen knowledge on us will yah. I'm just holdin' my breath for your next intellectual expletive. I've better things to do than read your inane, boring, ignorant comments. Kiss ma grits.

Trojan Mouse said...

Oh how scintillating. Such stereotypical comments! Such lack of wit. No wonder the Wrench keeps you around as her watch dog, you're ever so much more clever than she is.
Both wannabes without an original thought in your heads.

Jean

l said...

Hi, I stumbled on to this site and read the comments with interest. I purchased a horse for my daughter paid $1500 vet check which vet said he had a few issues but were workable. He has thin soles and contracted heels and poor circulation. Obviously I am a novice because I bought him! My local vet said he needed wide rimmed aluminum shoes, isoxoprene to increase circulation. and bute which is 3/4 tsp daily, and exercise him to give him better circulation. I asked my vet about medication and showing. He said in small amounts he didn't see a problem with it and that he himself takes NSAID before a show. I took my daughter to a local show where she did a little walk jog western pleasure thing (he's not western pleasure) and then an equitation class. Only her riding skills were judged in the equitation. In the equitation portion if she were on a horse that was on no medication but she took NSAID because she had some back pain should she not have been in the show ring? We are slowly decreasing the meds and expect he will be free of all meds in the future, but I will probably always have the wide rimmed shoes on him as he would be sore with out them. I'm sure there are lots of horses in the show ring that would be sore with out shoes... Please don't blast me.. I just feel a small amount for a horse is no different than for a person. If a horse is dead lame I don't think 3/4 tsp bute will make him sound...maybe 3 tsp would be needed and that is way over the limit if I remember correctly. Also, because of his thin hoof walls I am supplementing him with farrier's formula, flax seed, I have just added gelatine and am thinking about kelp. I am open to suggestions on how to build his hooves. Thanks!

Nikki said...

If you read the AQHA and APHA rule books they have tight restrictions on these drugs. They drug test at any big show, and only allow the drugs that you mentioned in a very specific quantity, time period, or under certain conditions that you need a vet's prescription for.

Nikki said...
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Brittany said...

hey...i love this blog...i was gunna copy and paste and use some of your words as a quote for a drugging horses awareness speech im giving and cite you but I got your pop up...LOL funny but i agree. And i definitely agree with this blog this is ridculous! A horse is just as beautiful and grand without all these drugs...I have a beautiful paint horse (APHA) and he's amazing in all ways and has never had any drug other than his shots...ridiculous.

reinerluver said...

Nikki is right.. last time i checked none of those drugs were legal in AQHA... you should really do more research before you rant on about how these associations are all full of drugs and cant get through showing without it, not true.

Laura said...

I agree that the stock world breeds poor horses. I am a college student and was lied to about two young APHA horses I purchased. I had in writing that both parents tested negative for HYPP, and "magic" I have two NH horses. One has to be regulated with acetazolamide and just the medication is costing over 200 a month for one horse. I made the best of my situation and my 4 year old is successfully showing at the APHA level; but in showing, she HAS to have her acetazolamide. If she was without it, she would likely fall over dead. If she even misses a dose, eats some grass hay that is a trace bit higher in potassium, or gets stressed out, it is immediately an emergency situation where her life IS actually in danger.

I will never sell my mare unless I spay her first; a fine show career would be just the excuse for some dip**** to breed her and produce more sick babies.

Something needs to be done at the level of the breeders to phase this disease out; It is the 21st century and we are supposed to care about our animals more than this. Of course I also agree that people ride stock too young, work them too hard, which increases the need for drugs.

But, I think the issue with drugs is a bit more complicated than you are implying. There are, in fact several sides to the story. In some cases, down the line a kind soul will pick up some of these broken horses in an attempt to make them useful. If its impossible to use theraputic drugs to keep these horses going at show level, think about where they end up? There is just a shortage of homes that is willing to take on a horse as a pasture ornament. A useless horse often ends up either in the slaughter pipeline or bumping through trader lots. In an ideal world, drugs should be prohibited, but what would be the cost?

Bad breeders, trainers, and owners will always find something to do with broken horses. If there is no way to market or keep a horse going in this way, their future is not too bright.

Great post, by the way! :)