After World War II the horse experienced a decline of epic proportions. Farms were being modernized, automobiles were more affordable, and most cities were running out of spaces to keep a horse. The workhorse was on the way out, and horses as a mode of transportation were swiftly being replaced. However, America was not about to end its love affair with the horse. Racing was growing in popularity, as were polo, rodeo and showing. Equestrian sports replaced equine related work and the horse ended by being saved by the popularity of equine hobbyists. This is both a good, and a bad, thing.
There is no doubt that when an animal is bred to work he has a more balanced, mechanically sound conformation. You can’t plow with a horse that has a weak rear end. You can’t herd cattle for hundreds of miles with some muscle bound, tiny footed head case. You can’t deliver mail across 1100 miles on a horse that’s going to have a stress attack that’s been genetically bred into it. We all know that a true working horse is usually bred for soundness. This is where nature is our best friend, and we are her worst enemy.
What the American horse loving public has done to one of the most incredible biomechanical creations is a travesty. We should be ashamed of ourselves, really ashamed. We took an animal that could pull more than 3 times its own weight, carry 1/3 of its own body weight on its back, live on grass and water, give us affection and trust and we turned it into either a head dragging, short stepping, no impulsion pleasure horse, a bulky muscled, no brained, falling over halter horse, or some high stepping, artificial, head case. We haven’t improved on nature one single bit. We’ve created types based on aesthetics, without ever considering morphology or basic mechanics. Our vanity dictates the uselessness of our animals. And because we create such biomechanically unsound animals we then torture them to make them perform as we feel they should.
Let’s look at one of the “Made in America” breeds and examine what human vanity has done to a perfectly good horse.
The American Saddlebred comes from stock brought over from Europe. Its ancestors were originally pacing stock. They were crossed on English Thoroughbreds and the long production line that resulted in the ASB was started. Several prominent sires, including imported Messenger (Whom was also responsible for the Standardbred and some lines of TWH) Other sires that impacted the ASB are Gaine’s Denmark, Harrison Chief and during this century Rex McDonald. When you look at portraits of these horses you see balance, good legs, nice neck sets and feet that will actually support a horse.
In fact up until the 1900s a good ASB looked much like a nice TB in conformation: not as lean as the race type, but not as heavy as the hunt field type. The ASB was a working horse. It was a horse that carried generals through the Civil War and Plains Wars. It was a horse that traveled endless miles on plantations and farms, or down American roads to market. It had normal shaped feet, a natural tail and was ridden in the same manner just about every other horse was. What happened? Where did the ASB show ring go wrong and why?
I’m sure the Modern Saddlebred Breeder’s forum is going to go all freaky here, just like they did when they reviewed my blog before. According to them everyone that disagrees with their methods is a hater and just “doesn’t understand the ASB”. Seriously people, we get it. We understand exactly what you’re doing because we own horses too. We ride too. We care for horses too. And we know without a shadow of doubt that what you do to your show ASB’s is a complete and utter load of shit.
1) Why the set tails? There is no reason on this earth to break a horse’s tail, or nick the tendons. It doesn’t serve any purpose. It is vanity on your part and it subjects the horse to lifelong disfigurement. I think every exhibitor that subjects their horse to set tails needs to have their middle finger broken and tied back to the top of their hand. That way they can flip themselves off all day long for being such idiots. They should also get daily ginger enemas, just to make sure they step lightly and enjoy the day like their horses have to. Vanity and cruelty.
How would you like to sleep wearing this crap?
2)What is the deal with the long feet? Don’t try to bullshit us that it serves a purpose. Has no one in the ASB industry read a shoeing manual? Do you not understand the pressure put on the phalangeal levers by leaving that toe so long? Do you not get that creating tubed feet is just a quick trip to navicular disease? The hoof angle also impacts the knees, elbows, hocks and stifles. Poor feet can screw up the whole leg. Why don’t you shoe the horse correctly for a working horse and leaving the long toes to ballerinas?
3) What is the deal with your tack? Can you not handle your horses without bits that look like murder weapons? Don’t give me endless crap about “any bit can be cruel in the wrong hands”. Trust me, you guys are the wrong hands everyone talks about. There is no reason for a 9 inch shank on a double bridle. None. Ever. You have two bits at the end of the reins. The snaffle should be the one getting the majority of cues. I have seen ASBs shown where the curb is working almost parallel to the ground. WTF is up with that? Here’s a hint, when the horse does the thing with his chin and lower lip where he has it all wrinkled up it is because the bit and curb chain is hurting him! He’s not making faces to try to score a laugh out of the judges. He’s in pain.
10 inch shank Weymouth
3) What is the deal with your tack? Can you not handle your horses without bits that look like murder weapons? Don’t give me endless crap about “any bit can be cruel in the wrong hands”. Trust me, you guys are the wrong hands everyone talks about. There is no reason for a 9 inch shank on a double bridle. None. Ever. You have two bits at the end of the reins. The snaffle should be the one getting the majority of cues. I have seen ASBs shown where the curb is working almost parallel to the ground. WTF is up with that? Here’s a hint, when the horse does the thing with his chin and lower lip where he has it all wrinkled up it is because the bit and curb chain is hurting him! He’s not making faces to try to score a laugh out of the judges. He’s in pain.
10 inch shank WeymouthAnd the bridoons you people use are just ludicrous. Can you not use a plain smooth mouth bridoon? Must you train with things that are better suited to sawing logs in half than being in a horse’s mouth?
4. Most of us understand the principals of saddleseat. Several breeds utilize the form and do so without making their horses look like strung out torture victims. Why can’t the ASB crowd?
5. Why do we do this to a breed we created? Other than the Icelandic Horse people, there is no European counterpart to a tail set, hyperflexed, torture gaited creature. We should be ashamed of ourselves.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60DFjMenFNI&feature=related
Scuttling movement, bad hands, horse is winging like crazy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4srDmPwQ-dw&feature=related
Looks like shit. The horse is hyper reflexed. He is wearing a bit that any non-tortured horse would flip over with. Don’t try to tell me that rider isn’t heavy handing that horse, I can see the strain in his arms. I can also see the hocks and stifles locking every few steps.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXeVQKfKM5g
If this is the best of the best at DC then the ASB is in trouble. I saw the chestnut horse lose his stifle about five times in one circle. The western horse looks like crap. I can’t figure out why the horses can’t move in a straight line. I get on WP people all the time about the canted moving, but this is way worse.
5. Why do we do this to a breed we created? Other than the Icelandic Horse people, there is no European counterpart to a tail set, hyperflexed, torture gaited creature. We should be ashamed of ourselves.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60DFjMenFNI&feature=related
Scuttling movement, bad hands, horse is winging like crazy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4srDmPwQ-dw&feature=related
Looks like shit. The horse is hyper reflexed. He is wearing a bit that any non-tortured horse would flip over with. Don’t try to tell me that rider isn’t heavy handing that horse, I can see the strain in his arms. I can also see the hocks and stifles locking every few steps.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXeVQKfKM5g
If this is the best of the best at DC then the ASB is in trouble. I saw the chestnut horse lose his stifle about five times in one circle. The western horse looks like crap. I can’t figure out why the horses can’t move in a straight line. I get on WP people all the time about the canted moving, but this is way worse.
This is a weanling in a bitting rig, being lunged in a small circle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_N_JNVqFsEI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_N_JNVqFsEI&feature=related
WTF is up with that?
Here's a yearling in a bitting rig being lunged in a small circle.
These horses are babies! They shouldn't know what bits are for another few years. A weanling should not know what lunging is.
Oh, but this kind of abuse doesn't happen, we've been told so by ASB riders that have been in the business for years.
Evidently the same people that denied this crap happens in the ASB industry went over and chewed the ass of the video owner so he removed the videos. So for those of you that didn't get to see the videos here's a recap"
Bay ASB weanling in a full bitting and stretchies on his legs. He's being lunged in about a 20 foot circle, while a man with a whip/plastic bag thing chases him. His movment is jerky and stiff and his head is cranked in way to tight.
Chestnut ASB yearling in a full bitting rig. Same size circle. He moves better but is still way to tight and looks off on the outside hind leg. Asshole still has the whip/plastci bag thing.
Both these colts are verified as ASB registered.
And just because people whine that I never show the good stuff, here’s a saddlebred doing dressage. He’s relaxed, his tail is natural, he’s wearing snaffle, he’s got normal feet and a happy expression. He’s getting to do what every saddlebred should be allowed to do: show off what a horse can do without being tortured.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRpjVbiUIAA
I’ve seen good saddlebreds do everything from dressage to jumping to western pleasure to barrel racing. In 1984 an ASB won the Battle of the Breeds by competing in multiple disciplines and placing well in all of them. These horses can do just about anything you set them at, as long as they aren’t hampered by a vanity monkey on their back.
Look at these little training gadgets to keep the ASB on his toes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRpjVbiUIAA
I’ve seen good saddlebreds do everything from dressage to jumping to western pleasure to barrel racing. In 1984 an ASB won the Battle of the Breeds by competing in multiple disciplines and placing well in all of them. These horses can do just about anything you set them at, as long as they aren’t hampered by a vanity monkey on their back.
Look at these little training gadgets to keep the ASB on his toes:
The black rubber boot with the chain around the ankle is called a Ticky Tack Spat. Doesn't that look like fun to wear? The silver thing is a caulking boot! So much for the natural moving ASB.
Here’s my personal opinion: The American Saddlebred is a great horse. They have a level of tolerance that is found in very few animals. I don’t think any stock breed, Arab or TB would put up with the shit an ASB puts up with and not kill someone. I know my old horse would have dumped me and left home if I had even hinted that I was going to make him sleep all night with his tail crammed up his butt, in a harness to hold it straight. Had I used one of those shoddy bits he would have flipped over and refused to get up again. I think the ASB show industry has taken a naturally dynamic animal and turned it into a characticture of a show horse. By doing so they have earned the disdain of the horse industry. We know how talented the horse is, it’s the people we despise. When is the ASB show world going to throw off its cruel trappings and let the beautiful horse it tortures show its natural abilities? And to the saddlebred people that are going to label me a “hater”: You’re wrong. I love the horse, just despise the idiots it attracts.
And the trot.org people need to just save their breath. I'm not talking bad about the Saddlebred, it's a nice horse. I'm talking bad about the scum in your industry that you should have had the balls to get rid of years ago. I at least have the balls to speak out, which is more than you're doing. You're wasting time bitching about me when you should be kicking your breed organization in the ass and getting the cruel stuff banned.
A lot of different people contribute information to this blog. Some of the saddlebred stuff came from people within the ASB industry, so calling the blog ignorant means you're labeling part of the ASB industry ignorant.
532 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 401 – 532 of 532I have to disagree about these bits. I read the website that Tuffy put forward and in fact it confirms that no using a curb chain changes all the dynamics of the curb bit. I have highlighted that part but you can check the website if you like. She is inaccurate in insisting the without a curb chain the force is the same. Please read below. It would be better if these statements were accurate.
"The action of the bit is therefore also dependent on the tightness of the curb chain. If the bit is used without a curb chain (very uncommon-- and dangerous), it loses its leverage action. If used with a loose curb chain, it allows the shanks to rotate more before the curb chain is tight enough to act as a fulcrum and exert pressure. This extra rotation can warn the horse before pressure is exerted on the mouth, so the well-trained horse may respond faster. If used with a very tight curb chain, the bit immediately exerts leverage and increased pressure on the bars as soon as pressure is applied to the reins. Therefore, a tight curb chain is harsher, and provides less finesse in signaling the horse than a looser curb chain would."
I would hope this helps to clear up this disagreement.
You know I was thinking the same thing when all of this was going on. I don't believe that you have anything without the curb chain. Also the leather can twist just as it would in the reins. I didn't follow that arguement either.
I still have not see the "big names" with weanlings in the bitting rigs.
ASB's are great,
> She is inaccurate in insisting the without a curb chain the force is the same. Please read below. It would be better if these statements were accurate.
She didn't say that at all. She said that without the curb chain you can still put pressure on the mouth, and it increases pressure on the poll and lips. Go and re-read.
A curb bit without a curb chain becomes a "pulley" with the bit now able to slide up the lips, exert more pressure on the poll, which a chain limits, and bascially climb the horse's face until the bridle leather stops it.
There were posters here saying that without a curbchain the bit had *no* pressure on the mouthpiece, which is inaccurate. Without a curb chain the mouth piece absorbs all the pressure. It's the equivalent of the handle on a ski rope. All the force is being pulled back and ying on the tongue and bars.
I Like Horse,
>I still have not see the "big names" with weanlings in the bitting rigs.
I'm sure they're out there. Big name or not, putting a bitting rig on anything under two years old is sheer stupidity.
Lunge a yearling? Lightly.
Let him wear a surcingle? Certainly.
Ground drive him in a halter or boasl? Does not harm if done correctly.
Crank his head down in a bitting rig and drive him with a bit? Only a complete fucktard would do it.
Jean
I have seen the bit totally rotate when there is no chain. I have the shanks that pivot. I do not ride with Saddlebreds so that may be different. But I have seen the without the curb chain the shanks fly every which way. I have to disagree with the assumption. I think this may only pertain to a one piece bit.
But I do agree about biting rigs on babies... Too soon. In fact biting rigs are too rigourous.
Suzie
TJM said
What is really disturbing is that you find my blog about abuse offensive. Should no one speak up? Should we all just hide our heads and pretend the abuse doesn't exist? Is that how every case of cruelty, neglect and abuse should be handled? By ignoring it and focusing on the positives of the industry?"
EXACTLY.
Happy Boxing Day, from Canada, eh?
Oops, I mean, exactly right.
(sorry, Turkey typo)
>>Oh the semantics police have arrived. Here's one for you:
Bitting rig on a yearling: It's spelled *abuse*. Long or short yearling, there is no reason for it. Most long yearlings are really only 18 to 20 months old, which is another 12 months away from riding. (If you give a crap about your horse's back)
<<
And, get this - no one here has disagreed with you on that - so why are you bringing this up as a counterpoint to the misuse of the words saddle seat?
>>It's also the sure sign of a trainer that has no idea how to create a mouth on a horse. WTF are you people doing putting solid reins with very little give on a horse that doesn't even have solid bones yet? No wonder your horses develop soft backs and bad neck sets.<<
And, once again, it becomes "you people," where you, Tuffy, lump all of us who ride saddle seat together. Gosh, I have a filly who was born naturally gaited, who has had to be taught to trot, and, gasp, she has yet to be hooked, much less had a saddle on her back and she is ... 1? NO, 2? NO, 3? NO - coming FOUR YEARS OLD. Her mama (who I own) was backed at 3 and that, in retrospect, was too early for her. Consequently, understanding the breeding on the bottom line, we're taking our sweet time with this filly.
>>Not everyone needs to drug their horse to ride it in a parade. I realize that calming agents are probably the norm for the ASB crowd, but the average horse and rider doesn't need them. We've ridden in parades all our lives, including the Helldorado in Tombstone, Arizona, which is one of the rowdiest and the big Cinco De Mayo in Tucson. We've never used any types of calming agents. The 4th Cavalry horses are trained to work around gunshots and cannon fire, they aren't going to spook at something as mild as a parade.
<<
Well, bully for you. I've ridden in parades for years on my Saddlebreds, including the largest non-mechanized parade in the U.S. that has over 500 horses. My vet is the parade vet for that parade and my horses are amongst the few that don't get some sort of chemical assistance because they are so well adjusted to parades and parade noise. It is not the norm for the "ASB crowd" to use calming agents, however, in the interest of safety, it *should* be one of the items considered. I just finished a parade where I watched the Mounted Assistance Unit that goes through all sorts of desensitization training have three horses absolutely blow gaskets and need to be pulled from the parade - 2 QH and a Percheron. Now, if I'd had some Ace for my 77 year old mom who was riding with me ;) ... (but that's another story). My vet just cracks up when I walk past his "dispensing" stand at the parade and ask him if he wants to give my guys a hit (and he's a QH guy - my ASBs are the only ASBs he has in his practice).
However, while we can argue how much horsemanship it takes to ride a parade for the length of the Rose Parade (plus the getting to/from the staging area - a total of 9 miles), the fact that the Scripps horses have over 40 Rose Parade appearances does say something for the calibre of the unit.
Trojan:
>I can only report on what I see. If the ASB industry didn't have these flaws I wouldn't be reporting on it.<
So all you see is abuse? You don't see any saddlebred people not being abusive at the shows you go to?
So you are "reporting" on the abuse YOU see, we are "reporting" on the fact that we see very little abuse going on.
Abuse is a tricky definition that varies from person to person and you will also have your extremests thrown into the mix for added measure.
Trojan:
>SS ASB crowd doesn't understand how their severe bits work, or how a horse's biomechanics work.<
No, many of us do understand which is why we work our curb reins with feather touches. You see people seemingly "balancing" on the reins, those of us that ride the big trotting horses undersand that this is not balancing on the reins, it is more about keeping the bit steady and about giving little squeezes and slight bumps to the bit when we feel the horse grabbign for to much contact. We want the horses to be light on the bit and a heavy hand will not accomplish that.
I understand that the looser the chain the more gag action and poll pressure is brought about bit curb action, I also know that the tighter the curb the less poll action and more chain action is brought about.
I also know that regarding horse biomechanics the trot is different than the running walk. The trot is more of circular path created by the front hoof, the big lick running walk is more of a triangular arc on the front hoof. Chains sling around more on a horse doing the running walk than they do on the trot and the lighter chains do a *lot* more slinging around at a running walk. This is why the big-lick industry has to "grease" or "lube" their horse's legs, to prevent the hair loss from friction.
Saddlebred people don't have the friction problems or the hair loss problems because the biomechanics of the trot are different than the biomechanics of the big-lick running walk.
Yes, the trot creates more concussion on the top of the hoof when the foot makes ground contact but our use of chains is not the same as the TWH use of chains. Our horses do not live in them, do not show in them, wear them for a short workout time and then they come off and get put away.
A 6 ounce chain weighs as much as a stick and a half of butter and is probably less than a Davis bell boot in weight.
We use no chemical agents, no lubricating agents, the USDA sees no reason to police us for abuse, the USEF sees no reason to ban them from show grounds.
Horse biomechanics. I have a lot of breeds in my barn, not just saddlebreds, Morgans and Arabians. I currently also have thoroughbreds, quarter horses, a hanoverian but have had other breeds board here as well. When they get turned out, I don't see any of them travel "round" not even the dressage horses in the bunch.
Who exactly decided that horses needed to travel "round" anyways? You can have an engaged hind end and not be "round."
GoLightly:
>No, you see, that's bad dressage you're seeing. Lightness is possible, just time consuming.<
And Tuffy and Trojan are obviously seeing bad saddleseat, but it is not the norm.
Obviously these are people who have never ridden a Saddleseat saddlebred. You can tell by the comments made. I have to also agree that Saddlebreds require light hands. You are penalized for riding off your hands, almost shamed about it. Maybe these two don't know how to ride except to hang on for dear life.
Also a horse with a longer leg and carriage, it's more difficult to turn sharply and can cause damage to the tendons of the legs if cut too quickly.
Also I have tried natural trimming and had to stop because of the fact that most farriers cut a Saddlebred's feet too short.
I apologize - I addressed my last comments to Tuffy when they should have been addressed to TM as that is who I quoted in my response. But, I'm going to go back to the parade "stuff."
>>Not everyone needs to drug their horse to ride it in a parade. I realize that calming agents are probably the norm for the ASB crowd, but the average horse and rider doesn't need them. We've ridden in parades all our lives, including the Helldorado in Tombstone, Arizona, which is one of the rowdiest and the big Cinco De Mayo in Tucson. We've never used any types of calming agents. The 4th Cavalry horses are trained to work around gunshots and cannon fire, they aren't going to spook at something as mild as a parade.
<<
If you're in Virginia, how are you riding in parades in Arizona? Also, above you stated that you grew up with the guys in the 4th Cavalry Memorial group, yet the language here implies that you ride with them. How is that possible when it's a male group? (Or, are you one of the two ladies riding side saddle with them?) Or, did you ride in a different group and it's their group that you're citing for being trained for parades, etc.?
And, if a parade is that "mild," why was a little girl killed in the Tucson parade 2 years ago by a team of runaway draft horses? Yes, she was underage and yes, she was mounted on a bombproof horse, but the team behind them pulling the wagon obviously spooked during the parade. I've seen this happen in California with an experienced team and driver where something set them off. Fortunately, it wasn't on the parade route itself, it was before the parade and "all" they did was scatter those of us getting our horses ready. But, the potential for disaster is there.
attafox,
>If you're in Virginia, how are you riding in parades in Arizona?
I move to VA two years ago. I lived in Arizona, both southern and central for 40 years.
>Also, above you stated that you grew up with the guys in the 4th Cavalry Memorial group, yet the language here implies that you ride with them.
I rode with them. Growing up on Ft. Huachuca, out at the Buffalo Corral, had us riding with or near B-Troopers just about every day.
>How is that possible when it's a male group? (Or, are you one of the two ladies riding side saddle with them?) Or, did you ride in a different group and it's their group that you're citing for being trained for parades, etc.?
We both rode with the ladies auxiary for several parades, and we also rode in there "war games" that were staged several times a year. It's an interesting group with a very respectable history, but due to the transient nature of most military personal most troopers were in it 4 years or less before they were moved to another base. We stayed because our father's postion was not one that moved around, so we knew the troop for close to 15 years.
>And, if a parade is that "mild," why was a little girl killed in the Tucson parade 2 years ago by a team of runaway draft horses?
Because someone was stupid, that's why.
I'm not quite sure why you're going off on this tangent, since the original comment was based on the fact that riding in the Rose Parade is not indicative of experience. Now you're citing accidents, that prove the case.
Nor does riding in a parade require drugging a horse. A well socialized horse, paticularly ones that encounted cattle, sheep, chicken and atv's can usually get through a parade with little mishap.
Jean
Trojan:
>I can only report on what I see. If the ASB industry didn't have these flaws I wouldn't be reporting on it.<
Is this about saddle seat or Saddlebreds? All this flipping backwards and forwards.
I have never witnessed these 10" shanks nor that leg contraption at any Saddlebred barn I have been in.
And who are these big name trainers that use the bitting rigs on weanlings?
>>And, if a parade is that "mild," why was a little girl killed in the Tucson parade 2 years ago by a team of runaway draft horses?
Because someone was stupid, that's why.<<
Actually, that's your opinion. The fact is that horses spooked - and these were horses that have done parades before. The driver couldn't handle them and a child on horseback was killed. It could have easily been someone else.
>>I'm not quite sure why you're going off on this tangent, since the original comment was based on the fact that riding in the Rose Parade is not indicative of experience.<<
No, the *original* comment regarding the Rose Parade was to the provide a broader resume for Michele Macfarlane and her experience which includes not only the Rose Parade, but the closing ceremonies at the Nagano Olympics (where, BTW, they had less than 90 seconds to change out a 4 in hand being driven to a stagecoach to completely under saddle tack, mount up and be back in the arena). YOUR comment was that it isn't indicative of experience.
>>Now you're citing accidents, that prove the case.<<
They prove the case FOR experience because inexperience, in this case, killed.
>>Nor does riding in a parade require drugging a horse. <<
Obviously, I know that. However, it should remain a safety option.
>>A well socialized horse, paticularly ones that encounted cattle, sheep, chicken and atv's can usually get through a parade with little mishap.<<
LOL, and where would you suggest that horses in Southern California (where the majority of the Rose Parade horses come from) encounter cattle, sheep, chickens and ATVs?
However, far more important to desensitizing the parade horse are familiarizing them with bands, waving flags, people throwing candy (dang that hurts), mothers with baby strollers who pass directly behind your horse, darting children, cannons, and ballons. Familiarity with a barnyard really doesn't replicate a parade.
And not much prepares you for the Hollywood parade where you get to walk on the "red carpet" and as soon as your horse steps foot on it (barium shoes and all) immediately starts sliding - just as the TV boom comes directly in your horse's face for a close-up. Nope, no drugs on that, but it certainly took some horsemanship skills to keep 4 feet moving firmly on the ground while she felt Armageddon was going on around her.
And while they may not be competing at FEI level dressage, judging from their photos, riding and shooting at the same time takes more skill than rank beginner, so I'd hardly qualify them as rank beginners riding in a parade (plus, the vetting that the Rose Parade Committee does pretty much ensures that those who are in the parade are experienced parade participants).
Excuse me but why are none of the horses pictured Saddlebreds? There is not 1 Saddlebred in these pictures above.
I visited Michelle's place and she was very gracious and she is really a very good jockey. Who are you to comment on her abilities? How many times have you done the closing ceramonies at the Olympics?
Also she has won the World's Championship 5-Gaited class 3 times that I know of. I'm sure there are more times but that is all I have witnessed.
Also someone who has the resume you have obviously hasn't been able to stay in one place for very long. That denotes a poor trainer. Good ones typically stay in the same place for a LONG time.
SuzieCA
Good trainers do indeed move around. Some of them actually work for rich people, who lose interest, and then the trainer must move on. My cousin has been through several of those forced career moves. She is still a brilliant trainer of H/J.
Just sayin'.
SuzieCA - I'm not sure what photos you're referring to, but there are ASBs pictured throughout the blog and through the responses.
Michele has won the WGC 5-gaited title 3 times. She is one of three people to have done it three times on three different horses. She was the 2nd amateur (the first being Revel English, also from California) and she was the first woman. She does hold the distinction of being undefeated in the WGC. Yes, she has only entered that class three times and she has won it all three times - on SkyWatch, Memories Citation (who also won the WGC 3-gaited title and is the only horse to have done so - but of note here, was gelded as he was seriously low-backed - to the point that I believe he probably would not win today with the penalties imposed on lordosis (he was low-backed from birth - genetic)), and now Casey's Final Countdown, who was the South African 5-gaited Stallion champion before he was imported to the US.
Hit publish before I finished. Have to agree with GoLightly - trainers often move because of their clients. It is the rare, lucky trainer who can stay in one place their entire career and draw the clientele necessary to stay in business.
The ones at the top of the blog with the western horses with their mouths wide open and the english horse with a crazy bit in his mouth.
That is the blogger's home page and it is for show ring horse abuse in general, not just saddlebreds. That is why it has various otehr breeds of horse represented in the photos.
Ok I am little confused here. I have gone back and read all this. A biting rig and a tailset? Can someone explain this to me? Are you speaking of a bridle with side checks attached TO a tailset? Because both devices start with a surcingle...
I kind of think both devices concurrently would be impossible seeing that a biting rig attaches with a crupper. In order to have both devices on a horse you would have 2 devices under the horses tail. So I am assuming here that what you witnessed was a horse in a tailset with a bridle set up as a biting device with side checks? How did they unload the horse with the bit in his mouth? Did they unattach the side checks? Further more you typically would NOT use a breast plate with a biting rig whereas you would use one with a tail set. I am just trying to get a visual here.
Bitting rigs don't require cruppers. And, even if they have a crupper, the purpose of the crupper is to keep the surcingle from moving forward, which would be substituted in this case by the tailset spoon.
Now, before the rest of you jump my case, I'm in no way advocating what was witnessed - just explaining how it could be done.
So, if what they witnessed was some a$$hat doing multiple stupid things at once (transporting in a bitting rig, having a bitting rig on a youngster, having a tailset on a youngster, transporting in a tailset, etc.), then yes, someone would have ended up attaching the bitting rig to the tailset surcingle.
Trojan:
What is all this about bits? Is that the best you can come up with? It is HANDS that make bits abusive. A smooth snaffle could be abusive if put in the wrong hands, you best believe anything more (like a curb) would be just as abusive. I prefer riding in more than a smooth snaffle (ex: twisted bristol) because it takes less of my movement to communicate what I want from the horse. Any form of riding requires give and take, I dont care what discipline. SS is a good example. In my opinion, No one is going to get peak performance from a horse by having iron hands. Loose contact is needed to allow a SS horse to move freely and carry itself, and most importantly: BE HAPPY.
"What is really disturbing is that you find my blog about abuse offensive. Should no one speak up? Should we all just hide our heads and pretend the abuse doesn't exist? Is that how every case of cruelty, neglect and abuse should be handled? By ignoring it and focusing on the positives of the industry?"
-First of all, your so called examples of abuse in the ASB industry have not been proven. I havent seen a video of weanlings in bitting rigs. You said that you found *one* video. So your saying that by watching *one* video (that i have yet to find), the Saddlebred trainers are abusive. The "training aids" you have pictures of were invented for protection, not abuse, and I have never seen them on saddlebreds. If the example of the chestnut horse at the Washington International is famed multi time WC Blackberry Delight, then you should know that he is about 18 years old and that was his last performance in a show ring. He went directly to his place of retirement after that show.
Second of all, If degrading abusers is so important to you (which I never disagreed with) , why make a blog? Arent there better ways of changing the level of abuse than pasting devil faces on people and calling them idiots?
"If someone isn't abusing a horse then I'm not talking about them."
- Oh, but you are. Why would so many saddlebred owners, trainers, and riders go out of their way to post their opinions? If they thought that you were specifically "degrading" abusers and had legit proof Im pretty positive you would have more posts backing you up rather than proving you wrong.
Blog owner and Followers. Please see the following sites to refreshen the "myths" that you have about saddlebreds:
http://www.american-saddlebred.com/protean/myths2.htm
and
www.american-saddlebred.com
(go to the prtoean asb, myths)
Aside from all the arguments, which appear to have stalemate since no one is going to change anyone else's mind. I have a question for the ASB crowd.
Who is King's Genius?
Tracy M
CH Kings Genius was a former Five gaited World's Grand Champion and a prepotent sire. If I recall he was a very good broodmare sire also.
Nope, he wasn't the champion, I think he was the stallion champion and then third in the Grand Championship.
Yes, I checked. Third behind CH Belle Le Rose and CH Sweetheart on Parade. There is a very fameous photo of the three of them in the awards presentation from teh 1933 World Grand Championship class.
AMWrider,
Thanks. I have a cast iron doorstop of King's Genius that I bought at an estate sale a few years ago. Found it again today when I was cleaning out a store room. I had originally bought it to paint spots on it to have an Appaloosa door stop, but if any of the ASB people here are interested I'll sell it for the $120.00 I paid for it plus shipping.
It's made by Virginia metalcrafters and dated 1938
Tracy M
delacoasta:
"Second of all, If degrading abusers is so important to you (which I never disagreed with) , why make a blog? Arent there better ways of changing the level of abuse than pasting devil faces on people and calling them idiots?"
The people from trot.org are not any better than the people on this blog. There are 2 heated conversations about tongue ties on trot.org They keep defending the practices of the saddlebred like the use of tongue ties and others things and this blog just keeps going around in circles about 430 times now. Nobody has changed their minds. And nothing has changed and this blog or no other blog will change anything either. People are going to do what they want and believe what they want to believe. I still say train all you want with tongue ties, they don't belong in the show ring and I still thing the same about all the other issues as well. Saddlebred people want to continue to do the things they do and they can and will justify themselves out of a paper bag.
bigdog,
>The people from trot.org are not any better than the people on this blog. There are 2 heated conversations about tongue ties on trot.org They keep defending the practices of the saddlebred like the use of tongue ties and others things
You're exactly right. The hysterical thing is that I went through the trot.org forum and there are people bitching about the same thing the blog bitched about but it's OKAY over there, because it's ASB people bitching about ASB people. Evidently other people aren't allowed to gripe about the abuse.
We get it already. The abuse exists, but we're supposed to keep quiet about it because only certain people are allowed to express their opinions.
Tracy M
Actually, on trot, they are supposed to debate politely without descending into a flamefest.
On the rule changing thread, the person proposing the rule change got a bit thin skinned and thought she personally was being attacked when folks were disagreeing in some cases, with the wording of the proposal.
And yeah, here's one for you to chew on. If you're reading over there, you've probably figured out that ASB folks tend to notice that their horses seem to be more orally fixated than most breeds we've run across (which has led to some of the tongue tie defense). For me, that's a true observation as every one that I've owned has needed to lick, nibble, play with things, mouth far more than any other horse I've been around.
So, along comes my coming 4 year old. She didn't get a bit in her mouth until this year (after she was fully 3). Big ol' fat snaffle. For 6 months, sucked that tongue up and over the bit. Finally, trainer threw up her hands, got out the old pantyhose (far softer than shoestring) and lightly tied the filly's tongue. Took 3 times for her to learn to not flip her tongue over the bit. Doesn't do it anymore - but you can bet that IF she did, she might get a reminder of how to keep her tongue in place.
Again, it's in how you use it.
BTW, in order to teach this naturally gaited child to trot (instead of pace or do the "oh my goodness 1000 gait at the same time" thing) we used:
- ground poles
- cavaletti
- leather anklets for the rear wrapped in sheepskin to remind her of her rear feet (this little gal even pace walked)
- and finally, 4oz chains for 5 minutes of warmup over the ground poles to remind her of those rear feet.
No hardening of the skin, no hair loss, and now we have a filly who can trot.
Learning to trot for her was huge. Poor kid used to get about 4-6 coordinated steps and then everything would fall apart. Just like a teenager with a growth spurt, those legs just seemed to go every which way (and no, she didn't fall). BTW, chains have been put away ...
amwrider said, "Who exactly decided that horses needed to travel "round" anyways? You can have an engaged hind end and not be "round." "
OMG, that is quite possibly the most ignorant thing I've heard a so-called "professional" say.
Horses NEED to travel in a round frame. Why? because their backs WILL break down if they don't. I see TONS of Saddlebreds and TWHs in their teens that have swaybacks because they were held so horribly and were not round. Guess what? Many of those horses are now broken down and have permanent nerve damage or slipped discs. A horse that travels in a round frame, no matter what breed, WILL last longer.
So, let's say your favorite exercise is running. Now, for the next two years, everytime you go running, I want you to run with your back completely arched, reaching your legs out in front of you as high as possible to compensate for the arched back. Let's see the kind of damage YOUR back will endure after you've done this.
Jesus, people, it's a simple case of anatomy and how spines are put together. I don't care what animal you are--not carrying yourself correctly will cause deformities and damage to the spine, period.
GoLightly said: "Lightness is possible, just time consuming."
THAT is the most brilliant thing I've heard in a long time. It is so true, and I find that most riders--professionals, trainers, exhibitors, trail riders, ALL disciplines--are not willing to put in the time reqired to commit to their horse to teach softness and suppleness. Let's get those 2 yos in the ring or on the trail! He's a finished horse at 3 years old when all he knows is mechanics! Or he's a finished horse at 3 years old when he's been ridden on the trail every single day for 2 hours straight--he's in so much pain he CAN'T possibly fuss! It's so ridiculous.
attafox:
Really interesting stuff. For sure, you need to know how to use it.
Can I ask, do you think maybe
(I'm not trying to be inflammatory)
Saddlebreds have gotten some "big tongue" genes along with their big eyes?
If they are highly intelligent, which I don't doubt, could they have boredom issues that become tongue issues? Maybe that big old tongue doesn't like a big old snaffle? I've found young 'uns with tongue issues often benefit from a different shaped snaffle, often thinner than a big egg-butt.
Did I see it in Equus, that researchers had x-rayed horses with bits in their mouths, to watch what the tongue was doing?
Maybe you should have ASB retriever classes:) Give them a reason to be orally interested!
Can you just see it?
And now into the ring, King's Jester, retrieving six jolly balls and putting 'em in a bucket. Timed Classes. I'd pay to see that!
Curious, and asking ??'s and laughing is all.
Attafox,
>Actually, on trot, they are supposed to debate politely without descending into a flamefest.
But of course, they're allowed to call all of us over here idiots and every other name in the book.
>And yeah, here's one for you to chew on. If you're reading over there, you've probably figured out that ASB folks tend to notice that their horses seem to be more orally fixated than most breeds we've run across (which has led to some of the tongue tie defense). For me, that's a true observation as every one that I've owned has needed to lick, nibble, play with things, mouth far more than any other horse I've been around.
Poppycock. ASB's are no more and no less mouthy than other breeds.
Here's what creates mouthy horses: Too much fricking stall time. So if you have a TB, Arab, QH or even a shetland pony and he's in the stall the majority of his time he's going to come up with things to do and they will involve his mouth in most cases.
I made a mistake and bought a halter bred and raised Appaloosa yearling. I would put him up against the mouthiest ASB you could find. He had spent the first 10 months of his life in a stall except for an hour of each day when he was turned out with his mother. He didn't even know how to play when we turned him out into an arena.
He would rip down buckets, open latches, undo clips, untie ropes, pick up and darg anything he could reach, carry brushes around, left himself out, let all the other horses in the barn out, undo bullsnaps, open gates, pick up tools and walk off with them and numerous other things that involved his mouth.
As he got older and had 24/7 access to turn out he slowly grew out of his stereotypical behavior.
I don't have time to list all the weird crap I've seen OTTBs do with their mouths. But when they get turn out and aren't kept in horse prison most of the time they generally quit with the mouthiness.
>She didn't get a bit in her mouth until this year (after she was fully 3). Big ol' fat snaffle. For 6 months, sucked that tongue up and over the bit. Finally, trainer threw up her hands, got out the old pantyhose (far softer than shoestring) and lightly tied the filly's tongue. Took 3 times for her to learn to not flip her tongue over the bit
Why not put a rubber tongue stop on the bit, which is MUCH safer, legal in the show ring and doesn't involve tying anything, on the bit?
http://www.nationalbridle.com/product-p/1-0727.htm
Tracy M
attafox,
"BTW, chains have been put away ..."
But why did you have to use them in the first place? Why is it that horses can be taught how to trot and where their legs are with patience and teaching a horse suppleness and softness rather than using gadgets? My trainer NEVER uses any mechanics on young horses--they are all taught to carry themselves with just a snaffle bit, soft hands, and body language. Teaching them to trot is done by working them over cavalettis, no need for chains or shoes. The only thing she uses is protective boots in case they clip themselves.
So, why did you choose not to take some time to learn training techniques that help young horses learn how to carry themselves with just exercise and proper riding and without using crap on their legs? Only one answer: it was easier to do it this way. And THAT'S why extreme mechanical products exist. It's just easier not to learn good riding and training techniques.
You have also said you're not training your horse until she's 4 yo. Good for you. But most of us know that is NOT the norm, no matter what breed or discipline. Most people start horses at 2 yo, and there is no logical reason to other than money and greed. I even fault Clinton Anderson on this--he is one trainer who should set an example and NEVER get on the back of a 2 yo.
kahpoti wrote:
>You have also said you're not training your horse until she's 4 yo. Good for you. But most of us know that is NOT the norm, no matter what breed or discipline. Most people start horses at 2 yo, and there is no logical reason to other than money and greed. I even fault Clinton Anderson on this--he is one trainer who should set an example and NEVER get on the back of a 2 yo.
I agree wholeheartedly. I get so mad at all the self-proclaimed gurus that try to "teach" the public their mystical methods and then they climb aboard a two year old. Just pisses me off no end.
Tracy M
katphoti said:
"Horses NEED to travel in a round frame."
And wow thanks for the compliment.
Here's where it gets interesting though.
I have to sort of disagree with that. They benefit from being round when they carry us BUT, this is much usefully true in the major dressage and hunter/jumper disciplines. I'm sure there are others I'm forgetting:)
I think ASB's were bred to drive and move comfortably for the RIDER, First. They are build a bit inverted, IMO, to start. I am glad to listen to any reasons why this isn't so. For sure, over-use will hurt a back. But a horse with a natural flat back, isn't necessarily out of balance with his rider.
There are many, many horses, that are naturally not built to round up, as in able to travel in that all so important (to the rider) round "frame". I hate those terms, frames, "headset" is the worst one for me. AndalusiansofGrandeur mentioned on my blog that her horse, an Arab, seems to travel very naturally and well balanced in a slightly inverted "frame", when loose in the paddock. Does her changes easily, when at liberty. Her mare is high-headed and naturally balanced.
I blathered about this on my blog, I won't bore you with my whole long list of reasoning here.
oh, oh, too late:)
Here it is, no need to go to my blog.
"Horses, ridden well, carry themselves. Any horse, ridden correctly, carries himself, happily. If he has bad natural balance/conformation/inclination, the rider can help or hurt, but the issue will never entirely go away, without good sustained training. And it's an issue to the rider, not the horse. Any sound horse, of course. A true horseman trains and loves the horse himself, for what he is, for life."
(end blog copy)
I've watched quite a few high-headed, inverted jumpers. Hai Karate, Hap Hansen's horse. Lisa Carlson's Kahlua. Rodrigo Pessoa's Tomboy. There are many more. They jump like deer. Unorthodox, but still balanced.
As long as the horse IS comfortable, you're "good to go".
I do agree, overdone young ones are not a good thing. It takes a long time, patience and skill to help the horse be comfortably with his rider.
Have you seen the ASB doing dressage? Holy moley, nice horse:)
To Horses.
Golightly wrote:
>I think ASB's were bred to drive and move comfortably for the RIDER, First. They are build a bit inverted, IMO, to start. I am glad to listen to any reasons why this isn't so. For sure, over-use will hurt a back. But a horse with a natural flat back, isn't necessarily out of balance with his rider.
There are many, many horses, that are naturally not built to round up, as in able to travel in that all so important (to the rider) round "frame
I agree to a degree, but also think that some people don't truly understand what "rounding" is. It doesn't mean the horse's back is in a roach. Rounding starts at the shoulders, as all true collection does, and finishes in the hips. Sometimes a horse can be rounded and still have a flat back, as long as his haunches have dropped and his neck is raised from the shoulder he is properly rounded. Most Arabs "round" up and lift their backs, but never achieve the conves back that TBs and Warmbloods do.
What I find disturbing about the ASB SS riding is the fact a lot of the horses are hyperflexing at the neck and not lifting from the shoulder, but instead merely pushing up and back. It's a destructive frame because it does put downward pressure on the spine and prevents the haunches from rounding.
Tracy M
ASBs are very athletic jumpers but the biggest complaint I hear from people is that they do jump like deer and the marjority of them don't have much bascule over fences, I know the ones I have had that we have jumped have not shown any bascule.
It is in the way they are built. Once people started to breed selectively fro different qualities in their horses, the conformational changes started occuring. Saddlebreds were selectively bred for upright head carriage, a shoulder and foreleg that swings freely and a hind end that works well in harness also with a great range of motion behind.
The result is that the * best * performing horses have shoulders and forelegs that are set very far forward. Their topline is considerably shorter than their underline, their withers is usually set farther back than their elbow and they often have flatter croups. It what we have bred for over the last 100+ years.
Katphoti, come to Tampa and ride some of my old schoolies. Two are turning 23. They are the cornerstones of my lesson program. I just put down my 24 year old due to complications of Cushings and he was sound up through his last ride. His last blue ribbon was won 10 weeks prior to my putting him down, and it was a breed show, not an open show either and it was a class that had to be split due to the number of entries so it was not a "one horse" class either.
Not a slipped disk, pinched spine, nothing in my geriatric bunch which does include one with a back that could be considered low.
They have been saddleseat horses their entire lives.
You call me an ignorant horseperson for wondering why horses are supposed to be ridden round? I don't see them travel round when turned out. I don't see pictures or video of wild mustang on the range "traveling round" I'll bet if I go to Wellington for the Winter Equestrian Festival I don't see a single warmblood or thoroughbred rounding his topline in their turnout paddocks either.
I am sure it was Xenophon who postulated that horses must travel round for battle, in order to turn and maneuver in mounted armed combat, and I am sure that this has been carried over through centuries of dressage training which has its roots in mounted combat, but quite frankly why should ALL horses be expected to carry themselves this way.
In humans and other animals, lordosis DOES result in the problems that you have expressed, but one of the reasons why the Lordosis study was done at the University of KY was to find out why these problems are NOT NOT NOT and I repeat NOT commonly found in lordotic horses. They indicate that there is no reason to not ride a lordotic horse as long as you can prevent the saddle brom bridging and as long as the horse doesn't have impingement of the spinal processes which is seen in a small percentage or truly lordotic horses (not the soft backed ones).
Attafox, I use pantyhose too for tongue-ties. It is stretchy with a lot of give.
I have seen horses with the rubber tongue port and I don't like it. They can't get their tongue over the bit, but they usually get pretty fussy with the rubber port and wriggle and fuss with their tongues. The wet rubber sounds like frogs croaking when the horses' tongues get busy LOL.
I did have a CP saddlebred that I worked about 10 or so years ago for a friend and she used one of those. I was not a fan, I think the tongue tying with a cloth or panyhose knee-hi is much kinder to the horse's mouth.
I have been fortunate to not have fussy mouthed horses (other than a couple of lip poppers) in my barn for a long time so I have not had to tie anyone for a while.
Hey GoLightly, that ASB doing dressage is for sale....nudge, nudge.
Tuffy, I agree with you on working round and it is also a pet-peve of mine in the show ring. I don't like seeing horses that don't have their hind end engaged and working underneath them, but I am seeing less and less of it now than I did 20 years ago.
The back doesn't have to be roached, what I strive for with my horses is to have the shoulder lifted and the hind end engaged. I want to see my horses pushing along with their back end rather than pulling themselves along with their front end and their hind end waving around behind them. I want the "rear wheel drive" to take place.
Just to clarify my statement:
>Tuffy, I agree with you on working round and it is also a pet-peve of mine in the show ring. I don't like seeing horses that don't have their hind end engaged and working underneath them, but I am seeing less and less of it now than I did 20 years ago. <
I mean that I am seeing better hind end engagement now than I did 20 years ago.
What about Horsie Fly-Ball?
:)
C'mon, I want to see that!
katphoti;
>>But why did you have to use them in the first place? Why is it that horses can be taught how to trot and where their legs are with patience and teaching a horse suppleness and softness rather than using gadgets?
<<
One person's "gadget" is a training device to another. This is a horse who did not trot at all She had to be taught to trot and just like cavaletti, the leather anklets (at the walk) and chains (when she was able to not-pace walk and had progressed to a trot) helped her to figure out her legs more easily. It was easily an 8 month (or longer) process to get her to always trot and not pace.
>>My trainer NEVER uses any mechanics on young horses--they are all taught to carry themselves with just a snaffle bit, soft hands, and body language. Teaching them to trot is done by working them over cavalettis, no need for chains or shoes. The only thing she uses is protective boots in case they clip themselves.<<
That's with horses that already know how to trot. We're talking a horse that didn't know how to trot - didn't do it when she was free (she either paced or galloped) and even pace walked. And yes, she always had wraps and boots on.
>>So, why did you choose not to take some time to learn training techniques that help young horses learn how to carry themselves with just exercise and proper riding and without using crap on their legs? Only one answer: it was easier to do it this way. And THAT'S why extreme mechanical products exist. It's just easier not to learn good riding and training techniques.<<
Um, who said a thing about riding this filly? She's learning how to trot before even being introduced to a saddle.
And, it certainly wasn't "easier" to do it this way.
>>You have also said you're not training your horse until she's 4 you. Good for you.<<
No, I said we aren't riding her until she's 4. Big difference. And, she still has to be put to cart - so it's going to probably be late into her 4 year old year before a saddle is introduced. Obviously, since we are moving that slowly with her progression, the logical conclusion would have to be that we aren't using what you term "gadgets" to take a short cut to training her.
>> But most of us know that is NOT the norm, no matter what breed or discipline. Most people start horses at 2 yo, and there is no logical reason to other than money and greed. I even fault Clinton Anderson on this--he is one trainer who should set an example and NEVER get on the back of a 2 yo.<<
I agree horses should not be ridden at 2. It's why I hate futurities and futurity $$s.
Tuffy:
>>But of course, they're allowed to call all of us over here idiots and every other name in the book.<<
That's a) not under my control, and b) when the owner of the site uses such terms as "WTF" and other inflammatory language, you can probably expect the same back. That type of language isn't allowed on trot.
>>Poppycock. ASB's are no more and no less mouthy than other breeds.
Here's what creates mouthy horses: Too much fricking stall time. But when they get turn out and aren't kept in horse prison most of the time they generally quit with the mouthiness.<<
Doesn't stop with a Saddlebred. My filly was on total turnout for the first two years of her life. Still mouthy. My "elder" who I lost last year loved to play games with his tongue - flopping his head to the side and then twirling his tongue until his face was covered in froth. I've actually only had one who was in a stall more than he was out and he was the least mouthy of the crew.
So, sorry, my experience doesn't jive with what you're telling me.
>>Why not put a rubber tongue stop on the bit, which is MUCH safer, legal in the show ring and doesn't involve tying anything, on the bit?
<<
I know what they look like, have bought one and tried it and had a different horse still put his tongue over the bit. As to the filly, YOU say it's much safer. I would say that's a horridly large thing to put in a 3 year old's mouth. BTW, as to legality, we've discussed that - tongue ties are legal in the show ring. BUT, who said this filly was in the show ring? She has yet to be shown. It was used on her for 3x for probably a maximum of 30 minutes and she figured it out. Don't quite understand the last "on the bit" comment - tongue ties are entirely independent of the bit.
GoLightly -
I've taken my horses into the Sherriff's desensitization clinics that are run at our boarding barn (which is stuff for an entirely different thread as to what they do to "desensitize" some of the horses). While it isn't particularly mouthy, my mare adores the 8 foot diameter inflatable ball that they have the horses push around and play with. The rest of the horses either flee or back away from it and here she comes rolling it down the arena trying to push it as hard and fast as she can. You can guess when we play games that "score" points who is the first one chosen (so nice since I was always the last one chosen for softball or anything else involving a ball!)
attafox
Just wanted to say thanks for posting. You have a lovely, calm reasonable voice. I'm learning:)
I peeked at your pictures, wow, what a Friesian horse you have.
All your horses looked beautiful. SideSaddle, yes, I did that so long ago. I'd forgotten! What fun!
Now, what reasons can be given for not having Jolly Ball Timed Speed Classes?
I'm sure y'all have them, basketball or bigger size, with a handle for horses' enjoyment? They even have flavoured ones now.
AMWrider: LOL!
If only I bought lottery tickets.
And of course, had a gazillion dollars to keep buying the darn things. Tickets that is.
I wish for horses, now.
Happy New Years Eve Eve!
All the best in 2009!
To Everyone.
amwrider,
"You call me an ignorant horseperson for wondering why horses are supposed to be ridden round? I don't see them travel round when turned out. I don't see pictures or video of wild mustang on the range "traveling round" I'll bet if I go to Wellington for the Winter Equestrian Festival I don't see a single warmblood or thoroughbred rounding his topline in their turnout paddocks either."
I'm of course talking about RIDING a horse, not when they're freely running around. Horses are lazy animals by nature--they will travel out of frame anytime. But once we as humans put weight on their back per OUR choice, not theirs, the responsiblity goes to us to take good care of them and keep their body in shape.
I invite you to come see the majority of the Saddlebreds I see here at barns in AZ. Most of them are swaybacked and obviously travel in pain. Come see the stalion that was the representation of an ASB at the Festival of Horses two weekends ago--as soon as they were finished riding him, he was put back into his bitting rig and tail set and left in his stall. Same with his yearling brother. And of course they were inviting folks to come meet him. Great representation there. Come see our horse in all his gadgets so we can keep him in frame and not train him properly! You say oh, well that's just one bad person. Well you know what? ALL of the ASB people and barns I've been in at shows here in AZ do this to their horses. It can't be "just one person" when hundreds are doing it.
And please, come meet my mother-in-law's TWH who was sored and "trained" using the same gadgets and gimmicks you are talking about using (bitting rigs, chains, weights, shanked bits, etc.). She has nerve damage in her withers, arthritis, and a severe swayback. She's only 22 and can no longer be ridden.
GoLightly,
"I think ASB's were bred to drive and move comfortably for the RIDER, First. They are build a bit inverted, IMO, to start."
You actually hit the nail on the head here, and this attitude is what is a deteriment to many gaited breeds. Just because a horse was originally bred to have an inverted frame for the rider does not mean that we MUST breed ASBs to be inverted with hollow backs and swan necks. The body type is also no excuse to allow a horse's back to get worse and not to ask the horse for roundness.
Plus, none of you understand what roundness truly means. Tuffy is exactly right: rounding doesn't mean a roach back. Her definition is spot on. And that's another interesting thing to point out: ASB people are not even educated enough to know what "rounding" really means.
I have ridden all breeds of gaited horses, ASBs included. I have only learned in the past three years how rounding works and how to use my body to get a horse to move well. But you know what happens? When I ask for a round frame, suddenly the horse is concentrating, calm, comfortable, and I never get a fight or an upset horse. Sure, it might take 20 minutes to get there the first few times I try it, or after I haven't ridden in a while, but once the horse realizes what I'm asking, everything changes. Then I never have to resort to mechanical training divices. All I need is balance within myself, soft hands, and a snaffle bit. Certain flexion exercises, especially when asking a horse to stretch his neck and poll, releases endorphins into a horse's system. This in turn helps them relax and focus on what's going on.
I never believed John Lyons when he said every horse should be able to be ridden in a snaffle bit. Now I've learned that it's true. I am amazed by what has happened to my understanding of how horses should and shouldn't be ridden. I find no reason to ever use mechanical training devices. I used to think the same thing most ASB people think because I started out in the TWH world where it was all mechanics: I must use weighted boots to teach him to pick up his hind feet, I have to use this bit with this shank, etc. But it's not necessary and is cruel to the horse to take those kinds of shortcuts. I'm also amazed by the elated feeling I get when all my hard work to really, truly train a horse using my own body and soft hands actually comes to a reward. I had a winning TWH gelding that was always placing in the top three at national shows. All I did was ride him in a Wonder bit with light hands and hold him in frame with my body. That's all it took. And I believe there's no reason why ASBs can't be given the same chance.
I think that's what's really missing here. Why is it that so many ASB and other gaited horse owners are so locked into using training methods and showcasing horses that are so ugly to the general public? "You just don't understand" is no excuse. We live in a society where horses that look like they're in pain in the show ring, even when the rider says they're not, are shunned by the general public. And really, it falls into the realm of WP horses as well. I have heard people say, why do those horses carry their heads so low and go so slow in those classes? They're not asking because they're curious: they're asking because they're weirded out by it.
Here's an example that I hope all of you will take seriously that I actually experienced. At the Festival of Horses out here, there was a stallion presentation section. On Sat night, the Gypsy Vanner stallion was brought in. He was 3 yos, horrible confirmation. Obviously he was only being bred because he was purty and homozygous spots. The woman riding him was riding hunt seat. She had a horrible grip on him and kept whacking him with her dressage whip. All she did was ride him around and around the arena. He was obviously unhappy and kept swishing his tail in annoyance. Sure, he was pretty. But it was hard to watch him when he came huffing and puffing around the arena with his eyes rolling.
Then, the Percheron stallion was brought in. A 14 yo who is trained in riding, driving and 2nd level dressage. She brought him in with just a rope around his neck, no halter or bridle. When she let him loose, she actually had to send him off of her, he was so attached to her. She showed his join-up capabilities and was able to work him in circles at different speeds and ask him for different manuevers on the ground with nothing in her hands. They he was ridden at all gaits bareback and with a bitless bridle. He backed, sidepassed, and went both directions around the arena.
The crowd politely clapped when the GV left the arena. The crowd cheered and whistled when the Perch left. And for more comparison, the only people who clapped for the ASB when he left the arena were the people who knew the owner (they were all cheering her name). So what does that tell you?
The best part was in the arena before the stallion showcase. The GV and the Perch were being worked in the arena. The GV was ridden by the hunt seat woman--she was jabbing him with her spurs and had a death grip on his mouth. Her owner kept saying he's a stallion, you've got to expect that behavior out of him. I swear, that horse wasn't doing anything wrong, and that woman kept her death grip and yelling at him. He was SO angry--his tail was wringing and he was obviously unhappy. This was while the Perch stallion was being ridden and performing sidepasses, lead changes, etc., all while being ridden bareback and with a bitless bridle on. The slightest touch had him performing well. It wasn't hard to watch the people gathered around the arena and see which horse they were focused on.
Just things to think about, ASB folks. Your excuses and methods are tired and ridiculous. They are only attractive and useful to you, and no amount of saying "you just don't understand" is going to convince those of us who know better otherwise.
katphoti said:
"Plus, none of you understand what roundness truly means."
Do TOO:)
I do not see roundness in Saddleseat. I do see balance in the pics of attafox.
Isn't that the difference?
The rest, what you're describing, isn't pretty.
And I agree, the disparity in methods is where the abuse factor roars in. That's why I think they should just give up, and do only dressage. In Arizona.
(ducks)
It's the TWH that gags me, truly. I still cringe at the pics TJM posted. That's really wrong, in so many ways.
The mechanical devices are already built into the horse himself. If he doesn't have them, he needs help from the rider.
(ducks again)
katphoti said
"Just because a horse was originally bred to have an inverted frame for the rider does not mean that we MUST breed ASBs to be inverted with hollow backs and swan necks. The body type is also no excuse to allow a horse's back to get worse and not to ask the horse for roundness." For sure,
But, but, but... That's what they WERE bred for. I'm so confused.
(cowers)
Ok. All of you who are mad or disgusted at our training techniques, why don't you go buy a saddlebred and ride him the way you want us to ride him and report back with videos and/or pictures in 6 months. I want to see what yall can really do!!!! Don't forget, ride him saddleseat, make him set his head and pick up his feet!!!
Tiffany:
So sorry, it canna be done in six months. Hey, all, buy ME one, and send 'er up, and give me oh, I'd say a year. Maybe 4.
Oh, and y'all pay for it. I'll set up a pay-pal account.
(rubs hands together....)
katphoti, will be helper/ designated trainer, handsomely salaried, as I have freely admitted to never having ridden saddleseat oneword. attafox & vlayne will judge.
Ok, is saddleseat like the anti-dressage? Because of how they are expected to travel?
attafox said:
"This is a horse who did not trot at all "
Why though? Why couldn't she/wouldn't she?
I hear unsound biomechanics and conformation there. Can't see it, so really shouldn't comment. Did she always move like a camel? She always "paced"? The Racking Horse was bred to rack, in all of the breeds, yes? Is that what the horse is doing?
Friesians doing saddleseat oneword was a surprise.
Plus, when they're young, they are madly growing into these bodies, of course. Younger horses are so gangly looking IMO. They take a long time to grow into their balance. I think a horse finally finds his legs under him with a rider when he's finished growing, not during.
I'm still confused, but that's nothing new.
Have a Happy New Year, all!
Katphott:
As I have stated, I also used to see a lot of hollowed backs and trailing hocks on horses, I am seeing less and less of it now than I did 20 years ago. Trainers are realizing the importance of getting the horse's hind end engaged and using the horse's abdominal muscles to help support his back.
Katphoti:
>I never believed John Lyons when he said every horse should be able to be ridden in a snaffle bit. Now I've learned that it's true. I am amazed by what has happened to my understanding of how horses should and shouldn't be ridden.......I'm also amazed by the elated feeling I get when all my hard work to really, truly train a horse using my own body and soft hands actually comes to a reward. I had a winning TWH gelding that was always placing in the top three at national shows. All I did was ride him in a Wonder bit with light hands and hold him in frame with my body. That's all it took. And I believe there's no reason why ASBs can't be given the same chance.<
Seriously. What makes you think a Wonder Bit is a snaffle? It is not only a snaffle, it is a curb bit (levered action) with a gag-mouthpiece.
Katphoti:
>Why is it that so many ASB and other gaited horse owners are so locked into using training methods and showcasing horses that are so ugly to the general public?<
I don't think they are ugly to the general public, I have never heard of "Prince Charming" riding up on a peanut rolling QH. He always rides in on a prancing, high-headed steed.
The general public doesn't know a piaffe or passage or a Spanish Walk from an animated trot and the general public wouldn't know an "inverted frame" from a round frame.
If anything, the general public thinks they are fire-breathing dragons with as hyped up as they look.
Our horses developed as "park" horses which means they were the horses you rode or drove around town when you were out to impress someone so I seriously don't think the general public finds them all that ugly.
What the general public does think is that ASBs are trained like TWH (soring, pressure shoeing, etc.) which is what the ASB people posting here see all too often. I used to think it, my family used to think it, people off the street that have a *little* knowledge of horses seem to think it also.
I get potential customers come in off the street for lessons and upon seeing my saddlebreds, Morgans and yes, even my Arabians, they ask me if they are TWH.
I go to the local one day shows and have people come up and ask me the same thing and you can hear the "disgust" in their voice when they think I have TWH. My truck has a magnet of a high-stepping trotting horse but a lot of horse people I guess can't tell the difference.
I was at a show last May and had this situation take place and the person, who obviously had done some reading on TWH, tried to accuse me of "chemically cooking" the legs on a "fancy show horse" that I had brought for one of my kids to show (and I had her legs wrapped in pink polo wraps).....um, no honey, that is an aged mare rescued from slaughter who needs tendon support from being a long-term Amish SUV.
I dared not pull her wraps off after that because she has some of the most scarred up legs I have ever seen on a horse that is still rideable. She did long, hard time on the Amish roads in PA before being sent through New Holland.
Those of you who know my "Sophie" will probably laugh at her being called a fancy show mare by someone. She could be the poster horse for the Fugly board, but I love her anyways even if she couldn't trot over a corncob on the ground. She is beautiful from the inside-out.
What has happened with the TWH has had far-reaching impact on ALL high-stepping breeds, gaited or not and you very well could have been seeing the result of an uninformed public.
GoLightly -
Ya know how we said some of our babies come out naturally gaited? Wellllll, this filly came out so naturally gaited that she didn't know how to trot. Pace walked, paced and cantered/galloped (okay, bucked, farted and reared as she played as well). Didn't take a step of trot. Didn't take a proper walk step.
She WAS born low in the pasterns and didn't come up for nearly a year (talk about having to have patience!) Now, you'd never know she had been low as she has beautiful driving hocks that are well engaged underneath herself. Got those from her mama (the mare you found in my pics).
And, I must be one of "those," because I show in Arizona (don't live there, we trailer in from out of state, but doesn't seem to make much difference on this blog).
Don't know which Friesian you're speaking of - but it's probably the one on Webshots. That's Raddy. That was a catch ride for me and we won the National Championship. If you're speaking of the ones that you saw for the costume class, that's a different guy who I get to catch ride for his owner in all the ammy classes as she has vertigo. He's pretty cool and we're actually undefeated in 18 months of showing together.
The ASB you saw that has more motion is my rescue (and the one my mom was riding). He's been used as a lesson horse so he knows every get out of collection trick there is, so it's fun to work with him and get him to really engage and move.
"What has happened with the TWH has had far-reaching impact on ALL high-stepping breeds, gaited or not and you very well could have been seeing the result of an uninformed public."
That's exactly my point. Sure, they're uninformed, but actions speak louder than words. When they see what ASB people do to their Saddlebreds they assume they're being abused. When people see a dressage horse or a jumping horse, they don't. This is a normal reaction. What this leads to is someone going well, I'm NEVER going to own one of those horses. And they move on to the next breed that doesn't look freaky to them. MOST people do not walk up to ASB owners and ask them why.
I'm not defending WP peanut rollers, either--I pointed out that the general public doesn't like that, either. As horse owners and self-proclaimed experts of our breeds, we MUST showcase sound, naturally-going horses to the public. Otherwise everyone who is in our breed are labeled as abusers. Basic psychology tells us this. Remember the exploding tires that Firestone had on Ford Explorers? Everyone assumed that every Ford and all Firestone tires were dangerous after that and the sales of both plummeted. No one bothered to find out the truth--they just assume. It's human nature.
When I told the stallion owner I'm breeding my mare to that I have a TWH and I've shown, her eyes got huge. I immediately told her I don't show with bands, stacks, etc, and explained to her that I'm against all that. See what happened? She automatically assumed that I abuse my horses. It's not her fault for being ignorant--it's those who showcase them like that who are at fault for creating an image that's not desireable.
However, this is useless. Once again, I need to stay away from these posts! I guess I just don't understand. That's it. I also don't understand why TWHs are sored, why dog and cock fighting continue, and why animal abuse does not have stronger laws against offenders. But just because I don't understand doesn't necessarily make what they do okay.
"Do TOO:)
I do not see roundness in Saddleseat. I do see balance in the pics of attafox.
Isn't that the difference?"
Not necessarily. Balance doesn't necessarily mean roundness. Besides, I show with NWHA and FOSH, and they have both balanced AND round Saddle Seat TWHs there all the time. They DON'T have round Saddle Seat TWHs in the sore horse shows (NHSC, TWHBEA, KWHA, etc.). I've also seen balanced AND rounded Arabians in Saddleseat classes at the Scottsdale Arabian Horse Show.
So it's possible--I just don't see it in ASBs out here. Or on any of the videos TJM posted.
GoLightly, you CRACK ME UP, though. I would be more than happy to work with a Saddlebred and show it Saddle Seat, but really, of course I would never win. I have ridden ASBs before, both show and trail horses, and honestly, it was no fun. Their rack hurt my back and they were too worked up all the time for my taste. Now, I have to be honest--I totally listened to the woman who was coaching me when I rode the show ASB, and she was a professional ASB trainer, but I did not get what the horse was doing or what I was supposed to do. Mostly she and I just laughed at how silly the horse and I looked together. I think the poor horse was confused. I think if I knew then what I know now, it would be a whole different story.
And you said that it sounds like biomechanics in the pacey ASB was the problem. I TOTALLY agree. A pace is not a rack--a pace is a lateral trot where the horse lifts the legs on one side while the legs on the other side are down, and vice versa. It bounces you around just like a trot, but it's impossible to post. A rack is a gait where three legs pick up and four legs set down in even timing and a diagonal pattern. It's what causes the smooth gait--there is no suspension between footfalls. A pace is NOT desireable in gaited horses in the ring, including ASBs.
Anyway, the muscle structure is completely different in a lateral going horse than a trotting horse. So my question is why not just keep the filly out of the ring and not breed her in the future? I'm sure she'd make a great trail horse if you can get a stepping pace out of her (a lateral four-beat gait that has uneven timing when the feet set down, but there is no suspension between footfalls which creates a smooth ride).
If you want to learn about gaits, I put together a two page spread about it on my personal website. http://www.silverphoenixranch.com/index_files/gaitinfo.htm I've spent the past 10 years studying gait and riding A LOT of different gaited horses to learn how they work. I still have things to learn, but I try to know as much as I can to help people out in recoginizing gaits. Let me know if you have any questions. I'm happy to discuss!
And you said: "They take a long time to grow into their balance. I think a horse finally finds his legs under him with a rider when he's finished growing, not during."
BRILLIANT observation. Yet another reason why we shouldn't be riding horses and pushing them to be finished show horses when they're 2 yos.
attafox,
"And, I must be one of "those," because I show in Arizona (don't live there, we trailer in from out of state, but doesn't seem to make much difference on this blog)."
Actually, I am only talking about the actual barns that are run here in AZ, not out-of-state folks. So you're not one of those I'm talking about.
Are you coming to the Arizona Nationals this weekend? We're having all natural TWHs there--no pads, chains, etc. The TWH classes will be governed by the FOSH IJA rulebook.
Actually, this brings up a good question: why oh why oh WHY is it that ASB judges CANNOT judge horses showing under the IJA rulebook correctly? They reward all the poorly-moving horses that have no head nod or overstride, even when it says right in the rulebook that it is REQUIRED or the horse is not allowed to place. A woman who's horse was obviously lame won a championship at a show out here that an ASB judge was judging. The judge said he liked his upright head, even though he had no head nod and no overstride and was obviously in pain. UGH. Natural TWHs are not ASBs--don't judge them like they are!
katphoti
OH, you're Andrea. I was confused:)
I'll go visit your site again. Been there before.
I am easily confused.
Thanks for explaining the rack vs. the pace. I rode a pacer, long ago, it wasn't pleasant. The Rack is supposed to be rideable, and comfortable, correct?
Makes a wee bit more sense.
So, when do we get the horse?
:)
Check out the pic I posted on my blog, of Reiner Klimke doing piaffe.
He's my hero. But that horse's conformation seems to be light years from a "driving" horse.
I actually found the pic through the trot.org forum. It's orignally from "BunnyAin'tNoKindofRider"s blog.
She had posted about Wing Commander.
Have a great night:)
GoLightly,
Yes, I'm Andrea. I changed my screen name because my friends know me by it and they couldn't find my blogs! :)
Yes, the rack is rideable and comfortable, while the pace is not. The stepping pace, however, is very comfortable. But most horses that perform a natural stepping pace are traveling out of frame, and it's very hard on their backs. My husband's horse, when he's being lazy, will go in a stepping pace (he's a TWH). The saddle will actually give him rub spots at the front and back of the saddle because he's traveling out of frame and isn't supporting himself. When my husband collects and rounds him, he drops right into his running walk and the rubbing doesn't occur. It's something my husband is working on with him.
I owned a TWH mare who had an amazingly fast rack. She would pass all of the QHs I would be riding with when they were in their canters and hand gallops, and I didn't move in the saddle. I would send her out and off she'd go. It was fun, but she was a hard horse to handle because she and I just did not get along.
If you want to see some really awesome TWHs doing the real flat walk, check out the posts by msliteshod and the videos of Papa's Royal Delight on YouTube. Those horses are all naturally trained, barefoot or only have keg shoes on, and are ridden by some amazing trainers.
Then, check out Rowdy's Rawhide Rocket. He is a TWH that is a racking champion. If you go on my YouTube page, I have it posted in my favorites. He not only performs a really fast, well executed rack, but he also performs a TRUE flat walk and running walk. This is rare in a TWH--most TWHs that rack are not even encouraged to be ridden in the correct frame in their flat walk, and this guy does it without the rider even trying.
That pic of the dressage horse is great! THAT is a round horse. I cannot wait to learn how to do that stuff when I start doing dressage lessons!
About the horse. Every once in a while you can find a free to good home or saddlebredrescue has a freebie. Check it out.
Oh, and 4 YRS to train a horse like that. I'll give you 12 months you said.
>>And you said that it sounds like biomechanics in the pacey ASB was the problem. I TOTALLY agree. <<
She came out of the box doing this - which could be a mixture of biomechanics and genetics.
>>A pace is not a rack--a pace is a lateral trot where the horse lifts the legs on one side while the legs on the other side are down, and vice versa. It bounces you around just like a trot, but it's impossible to post. A rack is a gait where three legs pick up and four legs set down in even timing and a diagonal pattern.<<
The rack is a lateral gait, not diagonal. Right hind, right front, left hind, left front.
>> It's what causes the smooth gait--there is no suspension between footfalls. A pace is NOT desireable in gaited horses in the ring, including ASBs.<<
Unfortunately, it seems to be rewarded right now. Even more unusual to see a true slow gait with the requisite hesitation.
>>Anyway, the muscle structure is completely different in a lateral going horse than a trotting horse. <<
Whis is why it is difficult for 5 gaited horses.
>>So my question is why not just keep the filly out of the ring and not breed her in the future? <<
You are kidding, correct? Breed FOR pace? In today's economy with so many unwanted horses, to keep a horse solely for the purposes of breeding on?
>>I'm sure she'd make a great trail horse if you can get a stepping pace out of her (a lateral four-beat gait that has uneven timing when the feet set down, but there is no suspension between footfalls which creates a smooth ride).<<
I know what a stepping or broken pace is. She's now been taught to trot, so the point is moot. This just happens to be an ASB who is opposite of many - while many have a genetic predisposition to gait (but come out trotting), she came out pacing with a genetic predisposition to trot. She now trots when at liberty as well, and since we've taken well over 18 months to teach her, don't think she's been abused along the way.
>>Are you coming to the Arizona Nationals this weekend? We're having all natural TWHs there--no pads, chains, etc. The TWH classes will be governed by the FOSH IJA rulebook.<<
Nope, the horses are on their down time after all the parades AND I'm going to NC to visit my former fiancee's mom & family. May also pop up to VA to visit his college room mate and their family (they have Arabs).
>>Actually, this brings up a good question: why oh why oh WHY is it that ASB judges CANNOT judge horses showing under the IJA rulebook correctly? <<
Same reason that QH judges can't judge ASBs correctly ... aren't familiar with it, and in other breeds, head bobbing can be a sign of lameness. Although, lameness certainly hasn't stopped some judges from putting up some horses at ASB shows ... sigh.
Tiffany
LOL!
I'll start sending ya the board bill, once he arrives. How old he/she is will dictate how long it takes.
:)
Happy New Year, all!
attafox,
"The rack is a lateral gait, not diagonal. Right hind, right front, left hind, left front."
Oops--you're right. I was talking about the foxtrot. What I should have said was that the rack has four-beat put down and three-beat pickup in a lateral pattern at speed. DUH. Thanks for the correction!
"Unfortunately, it seems to be rewarded right now. Even more unusual to see a true slow gait with the requisite hesitation."
I ABSOLUTELY agree with you. The TWH Performance horses are being bred to pace because when they stack and sore them, they square right up. It leads to all of us who get the "duds" having to deal with breaking up the pace. UGH. And the hesitation being rewarded is pissing me off as well. That seems to be in all breeds, too.
"You are kidding, correct? Breed FOR pace? In today's economy with so many unwanted horses, to keep a horse solely for the purposes of breeding on?"
Unfortunately, it happens A LOT. People breed just 'cause their horse has some bloodlines way back that were greats, or 'cause she's purty, or 'cause she's colorful, or 'cause I can't do anything else with her--might as well breed her. Check out Fugly Horse of the Day blog--there are TONS of examples of poor breeding mistakes. http://fuglyhorseoftheday.blogspot.com
"Same reason that QH judges can't judge ASBs correctly ... aren't familiar with it, and in other breeds, head bobbing can be a sign of lameness. Although, lameness certainly hasn't stopped some judges from putting up some horses at ASB shows ... sigh."
Very true. But what I meant, and what I should have pointed out, was that it's obvious that either 1) the judges aren't even bothering to read the IJA rulebook, or 2) they think they can judge all TWHs the same from NHSC to FOSH and NWHA shows. The IJA and NWHA rulebooks specifically say that the horse must have a head nod from the withers and overstride, and that horses that don't should either be disqualified or shouldn't place. It really pisses me off. How hard is it to take your job seriously and read a rulebook!!!! I *sigh* right along with you!
AMWrider,
>Seriously. What makes you think a Wonder Bit is a snaffle? It is not only a snaffle, it is a curb bit (levered action) with a gag-mouthpiece.
You're both wrong. A wonder bit is a curb bit with gag action. You don't have gag mouthpieces, you have gag cheek pieces. The mouth piece on a gag bit can be any variation from broken
(nutcracker) to ported.
Gag action can be produced by cheek pieces that actually slide up the bridle cheeks, typical of most gag snaffles, or cheek pieces that have the mouthpiece rotate or slide along the cheekpiece on a bar, like most gag curbs.
If a curb chain is employed you really get a nasty combination of mouth, tongue, lips, chin and poll, with very little "brake" to the pressure on the poll and lips. Gag curbs are the *worst* bits imaginable. They should be banned in all disciplines.
And then there are hack-a-gags, the little invention that made it so barrel horses no longer had to have training and sense since you could just jerk their heads off at full speed and still manage to bend them around the can. Trash on the end of the reins is all they are.
Jean
I used a Wonder bit that had a sweet iron mouthpiece that is fairly thick. The mouthpiece is not stationary--it moves up and down on the O-ring to give the horse relief. I don't use a curb chain with it, although since I show Saddle Seat, the horse does have a caveson on. I don't crank it down tight, though. It's snug, but I worry about the horse's nasal passages being compromised, so I don't crank it like I've seen on some show horses.
I took my time to learn how the Wonder bit works. I would school my gelding in an O-ring snaffle, and then I would work with him for a few days before the show with the Wonder bit. I was able to get a lot of softness and suppleness with the snaffle bit, then I would use the Wonder bit to help me with his headset. I used as light a hand as possible and always used the bit to help "balance" him, not to push him or force him to make certain maneuvers. My body was for that.
BUT, I have gone completely away from even the Wonder bit. My mare I ride now has only been trained and ever worn a snaffle. I use a full-cheek snaffle on her now. My husband uses an egg-butt snaffle on his gelding. My friends who show their TWHs naturally only use snaffle bits.
Anyway, that's the point I was trying to make. That I took the time to learn how the bit worked and how I can get the most out of my horse with minimal bit use. I view bits as tools. They are there to HELP us get the job done, not to force the job to get done. To many people rely on the bits to force their horses into submission, a certain frame, or for control.
At least I'm not using an 8"-10" shank with a high port, immobile bit and full curb chain as tight as possible like so many gadget-obsessed riders use.
Gag curbs? Hack-a-gags?
(shivers)
Golly, I've been sheltered under my rock a long time.
Happy New Day:)
katphoti,
>BUT, I have gone completely away from even the Wonder bit. My mare I ride now has only been trained and ever worn a snaffle. I use a full-cheek snaffle on her now. My husband uses an egg-butt snaffle on his gelding. My friends who show their TWHs naturally only use snaffle bits.
>Anyway, that's the point I was trying to make. That I took the time to learn how the bit worked and how I can get the most out of my horse with minimal bit use. I view bits as tools. They are there to HELP us get the job done, not to force the job to get done.
That's very cool. We were raised as snaffle/bosal people and always figured that anyone doing fast events in heavier bits simply didn't know how to train a horse to stop. If more people would take the time to leanr how bits actually work, instead of just following some sorry ass trainer's lead the show world be a better place.
I'd be interested in seeing a snaffles only ASB five gaited class. I don't think the trainers today could pull it off. And I do mean plain o or dee ring snaffles, smooth mouthpieces, no curb straps or funky myler bits.
Jean
I have just found this post today and will admit that after 4 hours of reading I have started just scanning post. I started riding in the Saddlebred industry when I was 12 years old. Fourteen years later, I have competed in SS, Fine Harness, WP, and h/j, a little bit of dressage, although I love all horses and didn’t find anything I “hated” about the other disciplines, I have always returned to my beloved Saddleseat.
Many things that were mentioned in the original blog I had never heard of such as the tacky tac thing.. still no clue what that is, but there are some things that were mentioned that are true, but have been discussed enough that everyone knows we do not try to hide the fact that we have problems. We know there are problems in the industry that need worked on. The fact of the argument I believe is that the ASSumption on the whole industry is what is infuriating to us. Yes there are trainers that refuse to see the light and realize they are morons. We agree to that, what I have not seen any of the so called "haters" agree is that possibly it is not common place, but in reality is not approved by the masses.
I have seen it admitted that all breeds have problems with their own industries they still promote the stance that those are the few; well why is it so hard to believe that it is the same for this industry?
Even through the mudd and the ridiculous slander, if each post is read carefully we are all agreeing on the same thing. There are some amazing saddlebred trainers who do things the right way and there are the trainers who need to fall off the face of the earth. It is the same with all breeds!
I have worked for a trainer that has judged the WC in Louisville and exhibits worldwide. I have seen him take horses that are unmanageable by others and turn them into magnificent athletes without the use of ginger, broken tails, nasty bits, and hard hands. Yes tail sets and hand stretching was used and biting done properly will benefit both horse and rider as previously mentioned.
To end, I think this is an over exaggeration of the lower classed representation of the breed. It is unfair to classify the entire discipline as abusive, money hungry, idiots; which is the gist of what I have read today. I think we all need to agree to disagree and realize that though there are those idiots in each area of the horse world, instead of arguing about the entire industry we should focus on educating those who are harming the horses and the reputations of an industries!
PS: My two 6 year old saddlebred mares and one 24 year old retired show horse and on full time pasture turnout with my 12 year old quarterpony. And I should mention that the quarterpony gives us more trouble than the saddlebreds have ever thought about giving. He spooks at everything and my SB’s just look at him when he runs off. It’s hilarious to watch.
Happy New Year Everyone!
LisaM said:
"we should focus on educating those who are harming the horses and the reputations of an industries!"
Well said.
(applause)
TJM,
Ironically, a mechanical, former TWH sorer that I worked with was the one who introduced me to a Wonder bit. However, the training was based in "kick and pull"--kick 'em for speed, pull on the bit to "set their head." Then FREEZE when you find it. HA. So I took the time to make the change. It was hard work, but I just was tired of causing my horses pain and frustration.
HEY ASB PEOPLE, READ THIS: Was at the AZ Nationals this weekend, and EVERYONE who was in the audience who was not an ASB person was DISGUSTED. They were shocked by the training techniques (so many horses were wearing the stretchies, weights, and chains in the warm-up ring), and they were shocked at how sweaty and blowing the horses were when they came out of the ring. On horse was so over-flexed that his chin was just about an inch away from his neck. Another's back was so swayed that the cantel of the saddle was even with his croup. I am NOT making this up.
People were shaking their heads in disust and would LEAVE the stands when the ASBs came in. They were not impressed with the abused, fire-breathing dragons they saw in the ring. And I don't know how many times that crappy judge awarded ribbons to people who's horses were blowing up in the ring. NOTE: this was an A-rated show with two barns from out of state, although most of the horses were local.
WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU, ASB PEOPLE????? Oh wait, I forgot: I just don't understand. Just keep using that excuse, people. I listened to people say they thought you were abusing your horses, be disgusted, and walk away. This does NOTHING to improve your breed's image. Actions speak louder than words, and until your actions start showing more natural-going horses, you will continue to be bashed. Plain and simple.
AND, shock of all shock: the WP horses were NOT peanut rollers! I watched two classes, and the judge placed the horses with the normal headsets. YAYAYAYAYAYAY!!! Progress!
The TWHs were great. They were ALL natural, all keg shoes, most of them were ridden in snaffles or Wonder bits. Too bad the ASB judge didn't even bother to read the IJA rulebook and had no idea what a TWH is supposed to look like in a ring. Oh well, at least our Carousel show will have a TWH judge this time!
LisaM,
"And I should mention that the quarterpony gives us more trouble than the saddlebreds have ever thought about giving."
I think it's the pony side that gives you the problems. :) Okay, sorry--couldn't resist!
Katphoti:
>HEY ASB PEOPLE, READ THIS: Was at the AZ Nationals this weekend, and EVERYONE who was in the audience who was not an ASB person was DISGUSTED.<
I looked at the schedule. There are AQHA, Reining and trail horses competing at the show, along with the 4H and FFA who would be predominantly western or possibly hunter. I am sure when the ASBs came into the arena that a lot of people left.
>They were shocked by the training techniques (so many horses were wearing the stretchies, weights, and chains in the warm-up ring)>
Well, let's see. Chains and stretchies can only be worn by horses in performance divisions.
The majority of the classes on the schedule are for pleasure classes or Academy classes in which these devices cannot be used. Looking at last year's results for the show, there would have been a whopping 9 horses at the show that could have legally worn stretchies or chains, I would be surprised if those numbers would be up from last year....so I think you exaggerate a wee bit.
By the way, were any of them wearing caulking boots or Tackity Tack Spats in the warmup?
> On horse was so over-flexed that his chin was just about an inch away from his neck.<
For a saddleseat class? I would think that those "10" inch shanks pulled to "nearly horizontal to the ground" would make this type of overflexion impossible.
>Another's back was so swayed that the cantel of the saddle was even with his croup. I am NOT making this up.<
Well let's just take the poor horse out back and shoot it.
Lordotic horses are NOT weaker in the back in the majority of cases. That was the intriguing part about why the research team at UK wanted to research lordosis.
Just a wild guess that the horse was a lesson horse showing in an Academy section....because you claim that the back of the saddle was so plainly visible and show coats would pretty much cover the cantle of the saddle, Academy riders don't wear show coats (only the vests) and then you factor in that 20% of the classes offered at this show fall under the "academy" designation. The horse you saw is most likely earning his keep in a lesson program or possibly as an equitation horse.
Also take into consideration that saddle seat saddles can be VERY flat and that lordotic horses are low behind the withers which makes saddles either bridge, or sit low/high from front to back and require padding in these circumstances to prevent bridging or gouging. For a "long" saddle seat saddle to sink that low on a horse's back....?
Katphoti:
>The TWHs were great. They were ALL natural, all keg shoes, most of them were ridden in snaffles or Wonder bits.<
Of course they were, they were all TWH Trail Pleasure classes.
http://anls.org/Horse/rules/2009/09Saddlebred.pdf
>Too bad the ASB judge didn't even bother to read the IJA rulebook and had no idea what a TWH is supposed to look like in a ring.<
So complain to management and next year have the organization get an IJA judge.
When I go to open shows and have my horses judged by QH or APHA judges I tend to not expect much from the judging and don't expect much in the placings. I go for the expernience.
I would think that a TWH person that voluntarily shows under an ASB judge would take the same risks and should approach the judging with a grain of salt.
OH BOY! HERE IT COMES!
amwrider,
"I looked at the schedule. There are AQHA, Reining and trail horses competing at the show, along with the 4H and FFA who would be predominantly western or possibly hunter. I am sure when the ASBs came into the arena that a lot of people left."
The whole Saddlebred Show portion was in one arena, going on at the same time the other breed shows were. You obviously didn't read the schedule right.
">They were shocked by the training techniques (so many horses were wearing the stretchies, weights, and chains in the warm-up ring)>
"Well, let's see. Chains and stretchies can only be worn by horses in performance divisions.
"The majority of the classes on the schedule are for pleasure classes or Academy classes in which these devices cannot be used."
Well, I saw them used on the horses that went into the Academy classes.
"Looking at last year's results for the show, there would have been a whopping 9 horses at the show that could have legally worn stretchies or chains, I would be surprised if those numbers would be up from last year....so I think you exaggerate a wee bit."
Honey, I'm not exaggerating at all. MOST of the horses were wearing chains and I saw five horses wearing stretches in the warm-up ring, and people were shocked. They were most especially shocked when they would be standing and talking somewhere outside the arenas and one of those horses would come barreling up on them and the trainer is yelling for them to get out of the way. It was SO rude.
"By the way, were any of them wearing caulking boots or Tackity Tack Spats in the warmup?"
Oh no, just three chains on each front foot and stretchies attached to chains. I personally have never seen caulking boots or those spats used. Horses in the 5-gaited classes did wear boots to protect their heel bulbs, but I know those are okay.
"> On horse was so over-flexed that his chin was just about an inch away from his neck.<
"For a saddleseat class? I would think that those "10" inch shanks pulled to "nearly horizontal to the ground" would make this type of overflexion impossible."
Yep, he was overflexed. I KNEW I should have taken pictures to show you people and you wouldn't take my word for it. I never said the shanks were 10" and never said anything about nearly horizontal--someone else has been picking on that. He just looked awful and in pain.
">Another's back was so swayed that the cantel of the saddle was even with his croup. I am NOT making this up.<
"Well let's just take the poor horse out back and shoot it."
No, why don't we retire him and let him not be a show horse anymore. I don't know his age, but there seemed to be no logical reason for a horse to be shaped like that and still be ridden. Oh wait, to win a ribbon. I forgot.
"Lordotic horses are NOT weaker in the back in the majority of cases. That was the intriguing part about why the research team at UK wanted to research lordosis."
I haven't even said one word about lordosis--WTF?
"Just a wild guess that the horse was a lesson horse showing in an Academy section....because you claim that the back of the saddle was so plainly visible and show coats would pretty much cover the cantle of the saddle, Academy riders don't wear show coats (only the vests) and then you factor in that 20% of the classes offered at this show fall under the "academy" designation. The horse you saw is most likely earning his keep in a lesson program or possibly as an equitation horse."
He was ridden in one class by a child and one class by an adult. In both classes In ALL of the classes everyone wore coats. In any case, the horse didn't need to be ridden with his back looking like that. But if a horse ain't making money, then he might as well be shot, since you imply that a horse must "earn his keep."
From what you're saying, I think that perhaps the rules aren't being followed out here.
"Also take into consideration that saddle seat saddles can be VERY flat and that lordotic horses are low behind the withers which makes saddles either bridge, or sit low/high from front to back and require padding in these circumstances to prevent bridging or gouging. For a "long" saddle seat saddle to sink that low on a horse's back....?"
I have ridden saddle seat for 8 years and I know exactly how the saddles fit. I have one deep seat and one flat seat. I didn't go up and study the saddle. It doesn't matter what kind of saddle this horse was wearing--he was horribly swaybacked and it was obvious.
"Of course they were, they were all TWH Trail Pleasure classes."
Because there are no BL horses in AZ, and because a local trainer who is our only gaited horse trainer in AZ asked for the classes. She had to work her ass off to get them in, but she did it. Plenty of Trail Pleasure horses in sore horse venues are pressure shod and they use heavy, long-shanked bits.
My point is the huge difference between the two breeds. The ASBs were all mechanical, while the TWHs were all natural. It was a huge difference in how the audience perceived them.
"So complain to management and next year have the organization get an IJA judge."
We already have in years past. They won't do it because they don't want to spend money on the TWHs. BUt that's a whole 'nother battle we're fighting. It's one reason why I WON'T show at the ASB shows out here--until they get a TWH judge, why waste my time and money? The only time I would spend the money would be to put a horse that I'm trying to get used to the show ring and show atmosphere in the novice classes. Then it's just experience for the horse and I'm not worried about my placing.
"When I go to open shows and have my horses judged by QH or APHA judges I tend to not expect much from the judging and don't expect much in the placings. I go for the expernience."
This was not an open show. As I said, the dressage, H/J, and QHs were all showing in different arenas at the same time.
"I would think that a TWH person that voluntarily shows under an ASB judge would take the same risks and should approach the judging with a grain of salt."
I would think that judge would do their job and read the rulebook they're supposed to be judging off of. I don't care what discipline it is, and I believe it's one of the major problems in all breed shows. Judges are too high-and-mighty to come down from their pedestals to actual read a rulebook and learning how the horse is supposed to move for the breed. If a judge has agreed to judge another breed, then that person needs to take responsibility and do the work to judge the horses fairly. Most judges won't take the time, though. It's a major problem, IMO.
I don't think anyone should have to go to a show and take what the judge says with a grain of salt. When the classes, grounds fees, stall fees, etc. are the same as what the other exhibitors are paying, why should we have to expect NOT to be judged correctly and fairly? It makes no sense to me.
Here are the photos from the AZ National show. Maybe you can show us the horses that you are refering to.
http://craig.exposuremanager.com/g/2008_az_national_show
*ASHLEY*
Here you go....
One note: this isn't all the classes, and I don't see several of the horses that showed. So I'm not sure what the deal is. None of the TWH classes are posted, and there were several Morgan hunter classes and open English classes that aren't on here, either. Weird. Maybe he doesn't have all of them posted yet.
Creepy body shape
Overflex I was able to see wrinkles at the back of his jaw where it meets the neck in the warmup ring. He actually has his nose out further in this photo than he did in the warmup ring. This is the one I was talking about.
Swayback A large woman rode this horse later, and I thought she was going to go in a class--maybe she didn't because I can't seem to find any photos of her on this horse. She wasn't gross overweight, but I'd say she was around 200, too heavy to be on this poor animal's back.
Poor posture What is up with blue vest and red vest's horrible posture on these horses? I do know they are both with the same trainer, and that trainer is the one who cusses at the kids. But sitting back like that with their heads up--I hope the horse doesn't decide to rear. And of course blue vest got first. GREAT. Way to reward bad posture.
Another overflexed horse. You cannot tell me that groove along his jawline is natural. Obviously he has been trained to carry himself that way.
Swayback. Looks like a lot of padding on this animal to compensate it. This was the swayback horse I was talking about.
A common sight if you look through all of the pictures posted. What is up with the underdeveloped topline and the muscles being developed on the underside?
I figured out the coat thing. I think they were wearing their coats before they went into the ring because it was SO freaking cold on Saturday. I only saw the horses in the warm-up ring while I was helping school some folks on their TWHs who asked for my help.
Now, I know all of you are going to jump and give excuse after excuse on these photos. This horse is old, that horse holds his head naturally that way, blah blah blah. I don't give a flying fuck. There is always someone who will give an excuse out there for poor training, poor judgement and poor horsemanship. To me, there is no excuse for why these horses look this way. This is the visual that the audience gets from top AZ show barns at ASB shows. If you need to explain each and every horse and why it looks the way it does, then something's wrong. I will say it a million times, but none of you will ever get it: actions speak louder than words. If you have to give an excuse as to why the horse looks this way in the ring, then don't show it. Period. It's not that hard.
Andrea, what are people supposed to do with a low backed horse? They have useful lives as show horses for Academy kids learning to ride and show. In these classes, the horse's conformation is not judged at all - they judge either the rider's equitation, or the rider's control over the horse (in an Academy pleasure class).
These are NOT breed classes. Any breed of horse can be used, and I repeat - the horse is NOT JUDGED. These are BABYSITTERS!!! The most valuable type of horse on the planet! What would you have us do with these unfortunate accidents of nature? Shoot them at birth? Breed them? Better they have jobs toting around kids and beginner adults,in classes that are irrelevant in terms of breed stats, than be thrown away, neglected or bred!!!
And studies have shown that, while the back LOOKS awful (yes it does, ick) the back is NO LESS STRUCTURALLY SOUND than a normal back. The horse experiences no pain or discomfort due to their condition (which is called LORDOSIS by the way) - provided the tack fits properly. So just because there is a "large" rider on a low backed horse does not mean the horse has any more difficult of a time with that rider than a horse with a normal topline would.
As to "overflexed?" That is YOUR opinion. We want their neck as vertical as it can be, and their face as vertical as can be. That requires a clean throatlatch, an extra long topline on the neck, and the ability to flex. Just because you don't like how it LOOKS does not mean it is evil, horrible, cruel or abusive. A horse who is not built to do this cannot, and therefore is used for something else.
I will refrain from commenting on other rider's form. I'm not that rude. Although I do agree with you that if your horse cannot exhibit correct form and carriage, it is not ready to show. However, oftentimes horses work correctly at home - it's not until you get to a show that something crops up. Since you don't know the horse, the rider or the history here, you should really refrain from making assumptions. That is also rude.
As to seeing academy and pleasure horses warming up wearing chains and stretchies - HIGHLY unlikely. First of all, it is against the rules and that is ONE rule that we ALL obey. Breaking that one is very visible to everyone and it WILL get you reported and disqualified. No one would be stupid enough to do it (unless this was not a USEF sanctioned show? Perhaps the USEF rules were not in play? I don't know - if it wasn't a USEF show than all the rules go out the window). And second of all, Academy horses are not judged on their movement. Heck, as I stated above, the HORSE is not judged at all! There would be NO purpose to warming them up in action devices. None whatsoever. I would have to chalk this up to you not knowing which division the horses you were witnessing were actually entered in - something any person knowledgeable about actual Saddlebred and Saddle Seat showing would know.
As to horses wearing THREE SETS of chains and stretchies ATTACHED to chains??? Yea right. Take photos next time to lend your fantastical stories some credibility. I don't believe it for a millisecond. And if... IF! that were to be done, again, it is NOT the norm! Pure idiocy. But no one would be stupid enough to do it on show grounds. But then again, there were morons posting videos of them working a weanling in a bitting rig and stretches so I won't put ANYTHING moronic out of the realm of possibility. But - despite that, I do not believe you. Why?
I love when people see these sorts of "abuses" and not only don't report it, they don't even whip out their cell phone to take a photo. Since you did neither, yet purport to be SO CONCERNED with animal welfare and abuse - I choose to believe you are exaggerating, if not downright LYING.
As you said - actions speak louder than words. Your failure to act speaks volumes.
"Andrea, what are people supposed to do with a low backed horse?"
RETIRE THEM. There is NO reason to ride a horse that is in that condition. Sure, maybe the occassional parent can lead their little kid around on the horse, but no more showing, no more heavy work.
Let me tell you about my mother-in-law's horse. She was a BL show horse and now has a horrible sway back, has had it since my MIL bought her when she was 15. She toted my MIL around for several years, sice we didn't know any better, and since most people have the same idea that you do: that it's okay for a heavy rider to ride a swaybacked, older horse that has had a hard working life in the show ring. Well, guess what happened? She ended up getting nerve damage in her legs and back because there wasn't a saddle out there that fit her properly and that my MIL was comfortable in AND because my MIL is about 200 lbs. Our vet said NO MORE RIDING THIS HORSE. Now she is permanently retired, and she's only 22 years old. Was that a logical risk to take with a swaybacked horse? I don't think so. She is a pasture ornament now, and once she gets to a point where her pain is no longer managable without perscription pain meds, then she will be euthanized. There is no reason to continue to mask her pain if we have to go to perscription meds. She is living out her life as best she can, but all of us have made the decision that there is no reason to try to just mask the pain if it gets worse.
Why do you think a horse has to earn it's keep? why is it that ASB people don't understand the concept of allowing a horse to be retired? With the millions that are in the ASB community, why is it that people claim they "can't afford" to retire a horse? Why are you teaching kids that it's okay to ride a horse in such a condition? These horses have worked hard enough--why are you continuing to force them to work in their old age? Haven't they done enough for us?
"They have useful lives as show horses for Academy kids learning to ride and show. In these classes, the horse's conformation is not judged at all - they judge either the rider's equitation, or the rider's control over the horse (in an Academy pleasure class)."
SO WHAT? I don't care if it's a breed class or not--that doesn't make it okay to ride a horse with physical problems. That's like saying it's okay to ride a horse that's got pneumonia in an Academy class.
"These are NOT breed classes. Any breed of horse can be used, and I repeat - the horse is NOT JUDGED. These are BABYSITTERS!!! The most valuable type of horse on the planet! What would you have us do with these unfortunate accidents of nature? Shoot them at birth? Breed them? Better they have jobs toting around kids and beginner adults,in classes that are irrelevant in terms of breed stats, than be thrown away, neglected or bred!!!"
Actually, it would be more humane for them to be euthanized if they are born with back problems. Which makes me ask: why are you continuing to breed for this obvious problem? And what's wrong with retiring a horse that develops a back like that over time? What is so wrong with retirement? Oh wait, the horses have to earn their keep. I forgot.
"And studies have shown that, while the back LOOKS awful (yes it does, ick) the back is NO LESS STRUCTURALLY SOUND than a normal back. The horse experiences no pain or discomfort due to their condition (which is called LORDOSIS by the way) - provided the tack fits properly. So just because there is a "large" rider on a low backed horse does not mean the horse has any more difficult of a time with that rider than a horse with a normal topline would."
OMG, I have said NOTHING about lordosis. I don't know if these horses have medical issues or not. I only know what I see. I'm not a vet, so I cannot diagnose what's going on with these horss. For all I know they have separated vertebrae or vertebrae that are scraping against each other and the trainers are giving them injections to keep them pain free. It's not my place to say. There are hundreds of problems these horses could have--we can't just assume it's lordosis without a medical diagnosis.
"As to "overflexed?" That is YOUR opinion. We want their neck as vertical as it can be, and their face as vertical as can be. That requires a clean throatlatch, an extra long topline on the neck, and the ability to flex. Just because you don't like how it LOOKS does not mean it is evil, horrible, cruel or abusive. A horse who is not built to do this cannot, and therefore is used for something else."
But guess what: when someone sees a bug-eyed horse traveling with flairing nostrils, straight on the vertical, and gaping at the bit, THEY THINK IT'S ABUSE. I don't care whether or not it is: you are continuing to paint a poor picture of the breed.
And you don't seem to be able to explain that groove/wrinkle in that WP horse's jawline. THAT IS NOT NORMAL OR NATURAL. Jeez, people! What is wrong with you avoiding the obvious issues here?
"I will refrain from commenting on other rider's form. I'm not that rude."
How is it rude to point out poor form? I'm sure you would do the same thing if some rider came through in a WP class with a slouched back, toes pointed down and limp hands.
And quite frankly, the way a child is riding or treating a horse is a reflection on their trainer. I would NEVER send my child to that trainer if she's teaching them to perch like crowing roosters on their horses' backs.
"Although I do agree with you that if your horse cannot exhibit correct form and carriage, it is not ready to show. However, oftentimes horses work correctly at home - it's not until you get to a show that something crops up. Since you don't know the horse, the rider or the history here, you should really refrain from making assumptions. That is also rude."
OMG, a horse at a show should be shown ONLY when it's sound. If "something crops up," then scratch the horse. It's not rude to make this assumption--it's common sense.
"As to seeing academy and pleasure horses warming up wearing chains and stretchies - HIGHLY unlikely."
Well, they were all pleasure classes, and most of the horses were wearing chains and five of the horses wore stretchies.
"First of all, it is against the rules and that is ONE rule that we ALL obey. Breaking that one is very visible to everyone and it WILL get you reported and disqualified. No one would be stupid enough to do it (unless this was not a USEF sanctioned show? Perhaps the USEF rules were not in play? I don't know - if it wasn't a USEF show than all the rules go out the window)."
That's absolutely horrible! I can't believe that whether or not it is or isn't a USEF show governs how the horses are treated! That is WRONG!
"And second of all, Academy horses are not judged on their movement. Heck, as I stated above, the HORSE is not judged at all! There would be NO purpose to warming them up in action devices. None whatsoever. I would have to chalk this up to you not knowing which division the horses you were witnessing were actually entered in - something any person knowledgeable about actual Saddlebred and Saddle Seat showing would know."
I know plenty about saddle seat, and yes, the rider is judged. But the judge should also penalize a rider if they are over-mounted or not taking care of the horse. And if the horse isn't performing the way the rider is asking, or if the rider is being mean to the horse to get results, isn't that also part of equitation? I was always taught that equitation is not just about how the rider is riding, but it's also about how the rider handles the horse and how well the rider has chosen their mount.
"As to horses wearing THREE SETS of chains and stretchies ATTACHED to chains??? Yea right. Take photos next time to lend your fantastical stories some credibility. I don't believe it for a millisecond. And if... IF! that were to be done, again, it is NOT the norm! Pure idiocy. But no one would be stupid enough to do it on show grounds. But then again, there were morons posting videos of them working a weanling in a bitting rig and stretches so I won't put ANYTHING moronic out of the realm of possibility. But - despite that, I do not believe you. Why?"
It's really too bad I didn't take photos. But it doesn't matter because I discovered today that the camera phone on my phone isn't working, and I hadn't taken my camera with me. You are welcome not believe me if you want. I saw what I saw, and so did the rest of the audience. In fact, I really noted one particular horse's three sets of chains and one set of chains in the back because he was a very light sorrel and had four perfect white socks and a flaxen mane and tail with a large, perfect blaze. So the chains were really obvious.
"I love when people see these sorts of "abuses" and not only don't report it, they don't even whip out their cell phone to take a photo. Since you did neither, yet purport to be SO CONCERNED with animal welfare and abuse - I choose to believe you are exaggerating, if not downright LYING."
Because to your industry, it is NOT abuse. So no one is going to do anything about it. If I took pictures and showed them to AC, AC would go to the ASB people and they would talk about how normal it is, blah blah blah. I'm not going to waste my time on something like that. And I've already dealt with being threatened by BL TWH people--I don't need any ASB people doing the same thing.
Go ahead, don't believe me. I don't really care. My whole point of this is to prove to you ASB people why the public continues to blast you and give you crap. So many of you ask the question but don't listen to the answer. It's because of how horrible your horses look to the public. We have the same problem in the TWH world--the BL is so ugly that the general public walks away and thinks all TWH owners are abusive, and this is without knowing about soring. The same will happen with Icelandics and other breeds who paint a visual picture of abuse, whether or not it actually is. It's already happening in the racehorse industry after the Barbaro story. You cannot ignore this fact, as all of you so conveniently do.
I'm done here. You guys will NEVER get it. It's really sad, that's for sure. No more reading this blog post. TJM, I'm sorry you have so many posts by people that can't see past the end of their own noses.
Go ahead, ASB people, have the last say. Be sure to explain away everything I've pointed out here with continued excuses. Believe me, I'm not impressed, nor am I convinced. And I'm pretty sure there are lots of people who think the same thing.
"RETIRE THEM. There is NO reason to ride a horse that is in that condition. Sure, maybe the occassional parent can lead their little kid around on the horse, but no more showing, no more heavy work."
You are making the INCORRECT assumption that the low backs you saw were caused by age or work. They are not. They are LORDOTIC horses. Not aged, not in poor condition, not abused. Some Saddlebreds are BORN THIS WAY. Read up on Lordosis... educate yourself. It'll do you some good. I do realize in other breeds, low backs are often caused by overwork or overbreeding. In the ASB, when you see a low back, it is MORE LIKELY to be the genetic condition Lordosis. Nothing more. Yes it looks bad but as I said - these horses have good lives, they are not in pain and they enjoy their jobs. They are no different than a horse without lordosis, other than how grotesque they look. As I said, don't throw them away - give them a productive life.
"That's absolutely horrible! I can't believe that whether or not it is or isn't a USEF show governs how the horses are treated! That is WRONG!"
That is not what I said. As amwrider earlier said, and I reiterated - pleasure horses are NOT ALLOWED to wear any action devices on show grounds at a USEF show. If this was not a USEF show, you may see people departing from the traditional rules. Whether or not they are "horrible" is your opinion and you are entitled to it.
Fortunately I have the experience of actually using these devices and understanding how they work, and seeing a horse's reactions (physical, mental, etc) to them to know that they are NOT injured or abused from them, so my opinion is much more valid on this subject. After you put over 20 years into this breed and amass more practical knowledge than you currently have, gained from use, not observation and web blogs, then you can speak intelligently about "horrible" equipment. For now, you are simply regurgitating tired old lines.
"I know plenty about saddle seat, and yes, the rider is judged. But the judge should also penalize a rider if they are over-mounted or not taking care of the horse. And if the horse isn't performing the way the rider is asking, or if the rider is being mean to the horse to get results, isn't that also part of equitation? I was always taught that equitation is not just about how the rider is riding, but it's also about how the rider handles the horse and how well the rider has chosen their mount."
What kind of 4H mentality is this? Equitation, per the rules, is judging the RIDER. End of story. The rider does not choose their mount in Academy - they often ride whatever horse their trainer assigns them. And where did you state, in any of your earlier posts, that riders were being "mean" to get what they wanted? Or that they were overmounted? Or the horses weren't performing? Suddenly all of this comes up? Whatever... from what you said earlier, your ONLY complaint about a rider was that she was leaning back too far. Looking at the photos, I only saw ONE picture where she appeared to be tilted back a bit. The rest showed very good form - shoulder in line with hip in line with heel. Maybe you've been riding too many TWH that require you to ride their neck to keep yourself from sliding off their rear end? Or you reference hunt and dressage riding too much? I don't know. But she looked to have proper Saddle Seat form to me. That's the awesome thing about shows - the judging is subjective, so most of the time, I don't agree with the placings either. :)
"I'm done here. You guys will NEVER get it. It's really sad, that's for sure. No more reading this blog post. TJM, I'm sorry you have so many posts by people that can't see past the end of their own noses.
Go ahead, ASB people, have the last say. Be sure to explain away everything I've pointed out here with continued excuses. Believe me, I'm not impressed, nor am I convinced. And I'm pretty sure there are lots of people who think the same thing."
Yes, we DO get it, that the public doesn't "like" what they see, because they are so over-done on taking a decade to get a horse in a full bridle, and doing everything "natural" that if the horse doesn't have one hoof in the grave, showing NO ambition or motivation whatsoever, it must be abused or terrified. This tells me that people need to be EDUCATED - it does NOT tell me that we need to become one of the masses plodding along on our corncob-tripping boring as watching paint dry horses. As a very strong supporter of the Saddlebred, and Saddle Seat riding at its highest levels, I say STOP TRYING TO MAKE SADDLE SEAT INTO EVERY OTHER (BORING) SEAT OUT THERE!
Your way is NOT perfect. It is NOT right. It is NOT the best. It is NOT without its questionable methods. Neither is ours... Neither is right and neither is wrong. We are DIFFERENT and I for one am PROUD of that. Let us be different. Learn about it - not by sitting in the stands and gasping yourself silly at things you don't understand but leap to conclusions about nonetheless... but by talking to the people working the horses that scare and disgust you.
Asking (not making - ASKING) a horse to step up his game, to do something he can already do naturally on his own, but with a rider or a buggy added, is NOT abuse. It is TRAINING. You may not understand that training or agree with it, you may not like how it looks, but that does NOT make it wrong.
Okay, a couple of comments:
1 - AZ National is not a rated show of any sort (A, B or C) for Saddlebreds.
2 - When you say, "where have I spoken about lordosis?" Well, every time you are talking about low backs or sway backs, THAT is lordosis, a genetic condition within Saddlebreds. While it happens to be very obvious, there are other conformational flaws that can be far more detrimental to a horse's way of going.
3 - In the picture that you cited that if you look through the photos, this was "common" to see, I saw one photo out of 56 for the one class where the horse was totally inverted and had spit the bit. It was obviously a two horse class and judging by the photos, the judge got it right and put the other horse up. BTW, it looks like the other horse actually did a decent rack as there are multiple photos depicting only one foot on the ground rather than a pace.
No more time than that to peruse through other than I was trying to figure out which rider you meant by "blue vest" as there were lots that have blue vests on.
Katphoto:
>SO WHAT? I don't care if it's a breed class or not--that doesn't make it okay to ride a horse with physical problems. That's like saying it's okay to ride a horse that's got pneumonia in an Academy class.<
No, an illness like pneumonia is one thing. A genetic blemish is completely different. All of those photos you posted, except for the western horse and the gaited horse, are Academy riders.
In order to show in Academy, the rider must be a lesson student, mounted on a lesson horse. These are NOT show horses, these are lesson horses. As Vlayne pointed out, the horse is not judged in these classes and they are open breed. So, if the horse is not judged, why would they have chains and stretchies on? Methinks you exaggerate.
>OMG, I have said NOTHING about lordosis. I don't know if these horses have medical issues or not. I only know what I see. I'm not a vet, so I cannot diagnose what's going on with these horss. For all I know they have separated vertebrae or vertebrae that are scraping against each other and the trainers are giving them injections to keep them pain free. It's not my place to say.<
If it is not your place to say, then why do you? Do a little research, hun. We have been discussing Lordosis and the genetic research going on at the University of KY by the FOREMOST researcher on the Equine genome project and they cannot explain why lordosis crops up in the ASB, but they DO indicate that a lordotic horse's back is JUST AS STRONG as an unaffected horse's back. No one breeds for it but the problem seems to stem from a cluster of genes.
>Oh no, just three chains on each front foot and stretchies attached to chains.<
I think I just peed myself laughing so hard. Any credibility you have just flew out the window on that one. Stretchies are attached to leather cuffs that are lined with soft, cushiony material so they don't chafe. Attaching stretchies directly to the chains would most likely cause a bloody mess within a matter of a minute.
As for triple chains? I have seen people use double strands of aluminum links, they are lighter than a standard set of chains but make more jangle-y noise to help with cadence. I have never seen triple strands. Triple chains of a heavier nature I would think would make a horse labor too much. Maybe some Big Lick TWH people do this because the nature of their big-lick running walk gait is quite laborious, but the ASB people don't like their horses to look like they are struggling to trot. The trot should be animated and "prancy" not laborious.
>If I took pictures and showed them to AC, AC would go to the ASB people and they would talk about how normal it is, blah blah blah. I'm not going to waste my time on something like that.<
I am glad Susan G Komen didn't have this attitude...
How about this, maybe AC would actually see that it is not abusive? The horses are fed, groomed, kept up well, no open sores, not being beaten, appear to be loved and healthy. Not everyone adheres to YOUR definition of abuse. AC doesn't and neither does USEF and nothing is written about this in the Horse Protection Act. Just because YOU don't like it doesn't make it wrong.
Katphoti:
>Another's back was so swayed that the cantel of the saddle was even with his croup. I am NOT making this up.<
>Swayback. Looks like a lot of padding on this animal to compensate it. This was the swayback horse I was talking about.<
Yes, you exaggerate. This horse "that you were talking about" does not have the cantel of the saddle "even with his croup."
Yes, they have lots of padding. Per the studies on Lordosis which you obviously have not read, there is nothing structurally unsound with the horse's back but saddle fit can be a problem due to "bridging" of the saddle which can cause pressure spots. So you pad the area "under the bridge" of the saddle to equalize the pressure.
I am sorry that your Mother In Law's horse was swaybacked also and that she continued to ride it in an ill-fitted saddle that caused permanent damage and had to be retired at 22 years of age.
>RETIRE THEM. There is NO reason to ride a horse that is in that condition.<
So a healty, structurally sound horse with a blemish should be retired?
Hmmm, that "creepy body shaped" horse that katphoti posted the photo of...I think I have that horse's twin in my lesson program, the big goofball has the same exact build in a 17hand version.
http://dougshifletphotos.com/gallery/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=496090
http://dougshifletphotos.com/gallery/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=496539
And for good measure, Trojan Mouse, the owner of this blog wants to know about rescue horses that have gone on to win at shows. I contacted her about mine, but she doesn't seem very interested because he his a saddlebred I suppose. Here you go, his latest win. He went from a dinner plate to the winner's circle and was previously on the road with the Amish for we think 10 years before being sent to New Holland.
http://dougshifletphotos.com/gallery/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=496130
This is another of my rescues, from AC4H. We don't know her story and don't know what she is (ASB? NSH? Morglebred?) but for an Academy horse it doesn't matter what breed. She is barefoot and this was her first show. We joke because she moves out quickly (prior Amish life) and it was like watching NASCAR to see her lap the ring. Her best placing was third because she wouldn't flatwalk first direction.
This is an example of what Vlayne said before. They may work well at home, but you get them to the show and sometimes don't know what to expect. Katphoti seemed to translate that into lameness issues for whatever reason, but Vlayne was referring to behaviour.
Ohh, Vlayneeeee, I am posting this photo just for you:
http://dougshifletphotos.com/gallery/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=494115
Okay, I got to take another look at these photos. They are from 2008, so, Andrea, saying that you saw this particular horse there really doesn't fly with me because I know some of those horses definitely weren't there. I also happen to know which trainer who you cite as yelling and he no longer is in Arizona, and was not at the show in 2008, either. The one who had the child who won that class in 2008 is Matthew Roberts and is one of the mildest mannered folks in the world.
(It's the Western horse that didn't show this year - know that one for a fact.)
So, while I understand that you are attempting to make a point, when you go overboard in areas that can be fact-checked, it just doesn't fly.
Wow stop reading for a while and things blow up to epic proportions. :)
I didn't want to seem like some of the other idiots on here and not read all the comments but to be honest some of the responses were so moronic or offensive anything you were trying to explain/clarify/defend was lost in your rhetoric B.S.
So If I misunderstood something you said you may want to reread your posts with a clear head and make sure it makes sense to those outside your world.
First off to the ASB owners who at least attempted to write in a logically calm fashion thank you for taking the time to clarify your position.
To all the others: What I have found to be true 100% of the time and have stated before, is if you are offended or angered by someone stating a different opinion regarding your choices in your daily life, then you need to have a serious reevaluation of what it is you are doing. If you are confident that your choices are correct for you and those involved with you than someone on the internet sharing a different opinion will not upset you.
For example, there are those that feel docking a dogs tail is cruel and non-functional. Well if you feel this way than I know your education is limited regarding the subject, and laugh and move on. It is not my job to educate you that my dogs hunt/are terriers and sometimes fight with things in holes that may not be a good thing to fight with. Am I offended by someone taking a different position? No, they are entitled to their beliefs, they may consider me an abuser for doing the deed. Oh well, no amount of jabbering, name calling, bad Hitler references, or hurt feelings is going to convince them to change their mind.
So on to how I took this diatribe of dribble....
By the way I entered these comments with an open mind since I know little about ASB and ASB training... It was the ASB people who convinced me of my final opinions
1. Abuse is acceptable to preform or turn a blind eye to, because it happens in other breeds/disciplines. Until they clean up their act no one else has to.
2. The study regarding chains and horses is not applicable to ASB's because it was NOT preformed on ASB's.
(That in and of itself sounds ridiculous.)
3. Chains are OK because by sound(?)not by pain, they teach the horse to find his gait... (huh? If that is the case use bells, pad their legs with neoprene then put the chains on if you must have chains. Come up with something else.)
4. To the person who finds running down the barn isle once with chains on is not damaging... Wear them as long as your horse does, without socks, work as hard as your horse does... if in three weeks you are not red and sore I would be shocked.
5. It is ok for a big name trainer to make racist comments (It was racist and you live in a fish bowl if you think it wasn't) because he is one of the greats in our world.
6. It is ok for same big name trainer to give out bad advice... (If the run away was the best example of his training I don't want him near my horses. First off if you have a horse running off with you at a show you shouldn't be showing at all. Second, you need to get off the horse and go back to the round pen with no tack and watch how he is moving and reacting without ANY human interference, then you check tack. If it is not a balance/tack issue it is a rider issue. Go get riding lessons! However, considering the amount of "no one lunges a mature horse" it is probably a balance issue.)
7. No one lunges a yearling in a biting rig (but it's ok when said big name trainer does it...even though it never happens)
8. Lunging is only acceptable on a non-mature horse and ONLY on a small circle, because it causes less damage and is less dangerous. (contradict ourselves much? and do you know anything about horses?)
9. Head set, Head set, Head set... collection is secondary, rounding/lifting/strengthening the back is not desired
10. We don't like tail sets but we do use them anyway... Cause you know it's not that invasive and it is a safety issue and all... (Then why doesn't EVERY other breed driving do the same and require it?)
11. If you can not provide the name of the people/horse/show/date/time/pictures/video/signed affidavit's from every witness, then because I didn't see it, it didn't happen
12. Because the Blog Owner is talking about ASB's she is an extremist, foul-mouthed, liar, with a public school drop out education who knows nothing about
horses and has probably never seen one in real life. However, the blog has potential just don't talk about our breed.
13. Because the blog owner talked about our breed we are offended and she personally attacked me, my farm and training, even though I don't participate in these practices... well unless you count that one horse who just had to have it done. So I am mad, and How dare you!
14. Tongue tying is acceptable rather then letting a baby be a baby and learn how to work with the bit... or properly adjusting the bit... or getting an appropriate bit... or going bitless all together - (Maybe just Maybe if you weren't shoving bits into their mouths as weanlings and yearlings they wouldn't hang on to habits that would work out on their own as they do in other breeds?)
15. Gingering we have to turn a blind eye to, cause everyone does it, even though it is simple to swab for it on the way into the arena. (vanity and money...the root of all evil)
16. It is acceptable to show horses not fully trained or under control... Because, well that is the way it is done and who are you to say my runaway isn't fully trained?
17. Bad hands, seat, posture, not working on leg and seat aids is ok because that is the way we ride.It's the SS way. We are not actually bumping the horse each stride in the mouth we are actually just "catching" the bit to keep it from moving around. (OK, WTF? I didn't see ONE example of good riding, not one)
18. Which brings us back to our favorite trainer and showing practices... WHY is anyone showing who doesn't understand the basics of sit and stop riding to get a horse to stop? This is standard throughout the horse industry, not reining specific.
19. It's ok to have bad hands that don't move with the horses movement, because those dressage riders are worse...(Well yes and no. Show dressage riders are bad... However, true classical dressage is not the same and should be able to be preformed on a loose rein.
For further examples go to:
http://www.youtube.com/artofhorsemanship
Also:
http://www.hauteecole.ru/en/alexander_nevzorov.php)
20. Even though we do not believe in an overall strong and balanced horse (our topline sucks but look at our abs? Again WTF the abs don't carry the rider! Nor do the overdeveloped neck muscles.), gentle riding or training, we believe we our trying to achieve the same things every
other discipline is.
21. To those that think they have never had a case of laminitis... has your horse/s EVER developed a flare? That my dear is laminitis.
22.And no there is no proof that horses with pads actually have a higher chance in developing thrush or fungal infections. Even though it is a perfect breeding ground for bacteria and fungus and any farrier worth his salt that is NOT worried about losing you as a client will tell you that there is a higher rate of thrush in horses with pads. That is just out and out crazy talk!
22. And of course my favorite... we lengthen the toe but it's ok because we stick a wedge under the horses heal to maintain balance.... (Ok I'll make one comment... If you are worried they are going to be hurt doing horse stuff, you are probably doing something wrong)
So, all in all, I have found ASB show people to be just as bad as Big Lick, Stock Breed Halter, German Dressage riders, and any other idiot who can not get past their own personal vanity to ensure their horse is being treated right at all times and being bred to improve the breed only. I find the training recommendations borderline barbaric just as I do with other disciplines (I'm equal opportunity on that department).
Money, yet again, has gotten in the way of true horsemanship, and appropriate stewardship of an animal.
The defense it has always been done that way is BS. A)In anything it has not always been done that way B)That doesn't mean it is the right way
Think for your selves. Step away from the trainer. Why do you think so many people are moving to these natural gurus? Because they are tired of the BS and hidden crap of big time trainers. EVERY discipline has them and almost every trainer has something they do when no one is looking.
Using shortcuts and gadgets is not training. Shame on you who think it is.
There are two types of riders... One who strives to attain a relationship and communication with their horse and one who strives to make the animal do what they want when they want. Which type are you?
AMWrider wrote:
>And for good measure, Trojan Mouse, the owner of this blog wants to know about rescue horses that have gone on to win at shows. I contacted her about mine, but she doesn't seem very interested because he his a saddlebred I suppose. Here you go, his latest win. He went from a dinner plate to the winner's circle and was previously on the road with the Amish for we think 10 years before being sent to New Holland.
You have not *ever* contacted me about your rescue. You made a post on the blog that you had rescued a horse. You did not email me a single photo, any information on the horse, where you got it, where it is now, or anything pertinent.
So you are not only an idiot you are a flat out liar, which is apparent of most of the ASB people that posted here. It's hysterical how many of you accused me of lying about stuff in my post, which was then proven true, yet you post blatant misinformation in an effort to make others seem like the bad guys.
If you emailed me the above information then post the email here.
Go ahead, I dare you.
Jean
Ztig,
Thank you for saying what I've been trying to get across all along.
The abusers and enablers will never *get* it because they choose not too.
Jean
They don't get it... But we can always pray that maybe, just maybe something said may stick in the back of their mind the next time they chose to do some of these silly things.
By the way can you and Tuffy put together a video demonstration of the bit pressure example? I would be willing to pay you for your time. The reason I ask for a video is I learn better from visual example then trial, and would LOVE to incorporate that in our training methods out here.
Heck I would LOVE to do it myself to see how much pressure I am putting on my horse. Even though I am pretty much bitless now, there are the occasional rides on someone's horse where they use a bit.
Ztig,
>By the way can you and Tuffy put together a video demonstration of the bit pressure example? I would be willing to pay you for your time.
Sis and I were talking about this. I'm also trying to bribe her into writing a bit article for this blog. People just don't get how bits work.
Jean
TJM, how do we e-mail you, when your profile isn't shown?
Just askin'?
Keep fighting the good fight, for all horses.
Abuse is out there, in ALL disciplines.
Golightly,
There is a link on the front page that says Email the Mouse, so anyone can email me.
For those that can't find the link, which is right under the polls, I can be reached at tjamouse@yahoo.com
Jean
oops... my bad! TJM didn't mean to put it in comments if you prefer email.. :)
Internet eti-quite... I still have a lot to learn :)
December 15, 2008 2:01 PM
amwrider said...
>Just want to add for Trojan Mouse, you are soliciting photos and stories of rescue horses that are going on to be show horses. I have one for you. A 14 year old Saddlebred gelding that was sold at auction and bought by the Amish as a 4 year old. He spent 10 years with the Amish and was sold at New Holland in August 2007 to the kill buyer. He was rescued by Saddlebred Rescue and adopted by me.
Since October 2007 he has been in my lesson program taking children around at Academy shows. He has turned from a grouchy hollow, empty shell of a horse into a goofy comedian who loves the kids and absolutely LOVES the show ring....
....he and one of my younger riders will be leaving Academy for 2009 and will be going in the Country Pleasure classes. As a "broken down" Amish horse I don't think he will be very competetive, but we might surprise ourselves. He will be an ambassador for Saddlebred Rescue which has been the recipient of the 2006 Heroes for Horses award by the USEF and Saddlebred Rescue has also been greatly hearlded by your pal FuglyHorse.<
What - your ASB poll didn't get the results you wanted so you reopen it? That's not skewed...
AMWrider,
What part of email the information and photos to me are you not getting?
I'm not pulling stuff off of posts in order to create a blog entry.
Jean
Tiffani,
>What - your ASB poll didn't get the results you wanted so you reopen it? That's not skewed...
You need to quit spending money on chains and hoof pads and buy a clue.
I reopened the poll for two reasons
1) I usually run them for a lot longer, I just didn't reset the date on this one before I added it
2) ASB people wanted to vote and sent me requests.
As for skewing it, how stupid are you?
People can still vote no, duh.
Nice photo of you leaning back and cranking on those reins. Bad hoof pads too. Poor horse.
Jean
Well thank you for reopening it since I didn't get a chance to vote... but hey my opinion maybe skewed a little I guess. :)
Trojan, your blog's fron page reads:
>I have a request for my readers: If you have successfully rehabbed a show horse, or gotten a rescue and taken it on to a show career then let me know, I'd love to feature you here!<
If there is anywhere that indicates to email it to you then I am sorry I missed it.
I will not be sending you any information, thank you.
Vlayne
I think you look great on Carson in your avatar photo, your shoulders are in line with your hips so there is no leaning back going on and the photo shows beautiful and light handed use of a snaffle bridle.
Carson is a lovely and talented horse.
Duuuuh, sorry, TJM.
hey, I'm still learning:)
All the best, TJM!
I am no more stupid than you are, TJM. Evidence abounds. Have a great weekend!
AMWrider,
>I will not be sending you any information, thank you.
If you didn't have any intention of sending me the information then why the hell did you accuse me of ignoring you?
Seriously, are all ASB people this mental? Do the fumes from the ginger get to you?
Jean
Hmmm, seems that GraceMorgan15 tricked me into looking at those photos from 2008. I didn't even notice the date. No wonder I couldn't find some of the horses I was talking about. But, those same horses were at the 2009 show.
Believe me or not, it still happened. Whatever. I knew you would all post and make excuses for what I saw. Oh well. Nothing like people not being able to believe others. Unless they see it for themselves, they won't believe. And even then they'll find an excuse.
BRAVO, ZTIG. I commend you for seeing the truth. You also explained what is truly going on in the ASB world and in their minds FAR better than I was doing in about a billion posts. Hopefully they will listen to yours.
"There are two types of riders... One who strives to attain a relationship and communication with their horse and one who strives to make the animal do what they want when they want. Which type are you?"
Can I use this quote on my personal website? Feel free to email me directly if you want to. THANK YOU!
amwrider,
"How about this, maybe AC would actually see that it is not abusive? The horses are fed, groomed, kept up well, no open sores, not being beaten, appear to be loved and healthy. Not everyone adheres to YOUR definition of abuse."
Abuse comes in all forms. Look at the TWHs--they have no open sores, bleeding, etc., and they are still being abusd in the show ring, sored right and left. Now the new rule from the USDA is for us to start taking saddles off at the DQP station because it turns out the fuckers who continue to steward their horses so they'll stand for the DQP are putting alligator clips underneath the saddles to steward them. Hey, that doesn't cause open sores either. But they're being abused. How do I know that kind of stuff isn't happening in the ASB world? We know it happens in other disciplines, as ZTIG pointed out.
"AC doesn't and neither does USEF and nothing is written about this in the Horse Protection Act. Just because YOU don't like it doesn't make it wrong."
The HPA was written based on the soring methods happening in the TWH show ring. Hopefully it will be rewritten to exclude pads. Then where will you ASB people be? OMG, you just might have to actually TRAIN your horses instead of manipulating them!
And for all, the man who was screaming at his students was there, but I've only noticed him since last year, as was a woman who's been in AZ for a long time. I don't know their names because frankly, I don't even want to know who those people are when they're such assholes.
Matthew Roberts and his boyfriend purposefully stole money from the Carousel Charity Horse Show in 2005. It paid for a new house for them. As far as I understand, they sold the house and gave the money back to avoid the lawsuit that was being developed, but I can't confirm that. It's one reason why the Desert Show Horse Assocation no longer exists and why he and Paul are no longer on the board for the Carousel. so that mild-mannered exterior certainly hides a real asshole underneath.
I meant that the sorers are attaching alligator clips to the horse's skin underneath the saddle to steward them.
katphoti- I was in no way trying to trick you into anything. I made an honest mistake with the year. With the new year, my head was still in 2008.
The link clearly says 2008, so you obviously made the same mistake I did when you responded. I was merely trying to understand what you saw.
I looked for 2009 after the mistake was mentioned, but I cannot find the pictures online.
Accusations for a simple error do nothing to support your cause or convince anyone of anything.
"Accusations for a simple error do nothing to support your cause or convince anyone of anything."
I don't have a cause here. My cause is actually to stop abuse in the show ring for the TWH. My poin here has been what ZTIG has said all along: that the ASB industry thinks the image they put out there is okay, when it's not. It's upsetting, really. But people do have a right to do what they wish with their horses. I just wish it was to the animals' benefit and not a person's ego or their pocketbook.
Kat,
I forgot to respond to your question! Yes you can use it as far as I am concerned.
There are people who don't know how bits work. There are people riding badly.
My gist from this, as a complete nobody, and since I opened up (for some twist 'o fate) I'd like to close, which if I don't, I don't mind.
(?)
These types of horses were developed first for a purpose, and then, for the circus. We've born and bred them, all you high-stepping, driving horses SaddleSeat one word people. We lessened the need for the check rein by moving their necks up. Lengthened their backs, etc.
We accentuated the "snap" of their feet, with gadgets and worse. I still have a hard time with their feet and tails. Y'all know I mean "we" as in what I've read here.
"Show" Horses. aka Showy.
I don't stop and screech that's completely wrong, when I see a line like "Your shoulders are in line with your hips". I want to add "and your heel", but I don't see that. To me, that's wrong, but if the Horse pushes you into this place, that you sit, you might hit a comfort spot.. These horse are built, and move differently. Human Beings made 'em.
Love 'em, or leave 'em. Don't hurt 'em.
The abusers are the enablers are the uneducated are the herd animal.
It's gotta start somewhere. Kat, I knew you've worked hard to eradicate the TWH abuse. Many kudos. But I never heard a response to my difference in conformation query. I thought the build of a horse was determined by us. We narrowed down most all breeds, for specific purpose.
These people, most, that I'm reading, don't give me the same sense of foreboding as say, oh, I won't, yes QH WP peoples. Don't you DARE question their motives:) I'm still unclear on why a horse's head should be in the dirt. That we've bred 'em to have high heads, is our own doing, as well.
Yes, that's the history. Rome wasn't built...
vlayne is working to help and she loves her breed. That's a good thing. vlayne et.al. didn't single-handed-ly develop this entire style of riding, which to me is much closer to "driving on horseback". vlayne is working to make it better, as she goes.
I still think it could be done, with lots less bells and whistles, but that's where people really do the dividing two-step. And why I'll never get my head around building up their feet.
To Each His Own.
Let's keep bashing on the Worst of the Worst. Out them for what they are, no hiding. That's one way to keep them running, with their hats covering their asses.
Let's take more time with horses. Maybe let them come back, as the good working beasts they always were.
To Horses.
amen.
Actually, heel should be in alignment with hip and shoulder.
However, the overall emphasis of saddle seat performance is to show off the horse, and sometimes, that means that the human form isn't as perfect as it could be equitation-wise. While eq horses are getting better and better, they are still not the top performance horses. Obviously, that doesn't excuse bad riding at lower levels, but I've done quite a bit of thought there as well.
I am also a ski instructor and a coach of various sports. I'd have to say that in all the sports I coach or teach, probably 95% of the folks out there don't do them well from a visual standpoint. Are they functional? Yes. Are they having fun? Yes. Do they look "right?" No. In a sport that is accused of gimmicks, there are far less things to hide behind for the rider - no rolls, wedges, or other devices on the saddle to place the rider correctly. Consequently, you end up with many middle aged, part time athletes who lack the muscular structure to keep themselves perfectly in position, and, on a cutback saddle, every flaw shows immediately. Not excusing it in the least, but I've done quite a bit of thinking about it. I've looked at my own pictures riding Western vs. saddle seat, and while I have far more years riding saddle seat, I can be caught "out" more often saddle seat than I do Western. Do I think that Western is easier? Heck, no. It's the land of subtlety and anticipation as opposed to instantaneous reaction.
I will also provide some statistics. Many of you have assumed that Saddlebreds are commonly shown as two year olds under saddle. While I *personally* do not agree with them showing as two year olds, I did some research and am offering the numbers to you from 2008. You can make up your own minds as to how "common" the practice of two year olds under saddle is within the ASB show world.
In 2008, approximately 8500 ASBs showed in Saddlebred breed classes.
11 shows total had two year old under saddle classes. Of those 11 shows, only 3 shows had classes for 5 gaited horses (far more difficult on a youngster).
In 2008, a total of 62 two year olds showed under saddle. That's less than 3/4 of one percent of the total amount of Saddlebreds that showed. 14 of those were 5 gaited horses. Of those 14, nine horses showed only one time. The other 5 showed twice - with one of those showing as a 3 gaited horse, so only 4 of the 14 showed twice as 5 gaited.
For the 48 3 gaited horses, 28 showed once. 16 showed twice, and only 4 showed three times under saddle. And, by "three times" I really mean 3 classes total.
So, when someone says it's "normal" to show a Saddlebred as a two year old under saddle, think about those statistics and decide for yourself. Do I personally think that they should be? No, and no two year old that I've owned has ever been shown under saddle. Heck, my current "baby" hasn't even had a saddle on her back and she's turning four.
Also, I was just at a clinic where there were quite a few ASB trainers in the room. We put it to the group as to whether they had ever used caulking boots as a training device. There wasn't a single yes in the room. They are used as protection for shipping. The only trainers who knew what "tacky tac" boots were were those who had dealings with the TWH world, and once again, they were not used by this group on ASBs. Now, was this ALL Saddlebred trainers? No. But it was a pretty good cross section (aka more than 20).
Again, I'm not saying that someone here hasn't witnessed it. But to say that it's common, that "we" all do it - that's not true.
Peace.
Attafox,
>Also, I was just at a clinic where there were quite a few ASB trainers in the room. We put it to the group as to whether they had ever used caulking boots as a training device. There wasn't a single yes in the room. They are used as protection for shipping. The only trainers who knew what "tacky tac" boots were were those who had dealings with the TWH world, and once again, they were not used by this group on ASBs. Now, was this ALL Saddlebred trainers? No. But it was a pretty good cross section (aka more than 20).
ROFLMAO! That's like going into a room of WP trainers and asking who blocks tails. Like people are going to admit it! Come on, asking people if they do something abusive doesn't get you a reliable statistic.
>So, when someone says it's "normal" to show a Saddlebred as a two year old under saddle, think about those statistics and decide for yourself
You're missing the point. It isn't a question of whether they *show* the two year olds, it's a question of whether they are *riding* them. When an ASB trainer tells me it takes 4 to 6 months to get a horse ready for top levels of the show ring, and he's on a three year old he intends to show, then I know he got on that horse as a two year old. And he rode the shit out of it to get it ready for the show ring.
We all know the worst abuse happens at home. The stuff we see at the shows is a mere shadow of the abuse done by trainers while on their own properties. If one really wants a good idea of what is condoned they can always go read Mr. Lavery's website where he recommend's bitting rigs for yearlings, chains and more severe bits. There is too much evidence out there to prove that the problems exist, and are being ignored.
Jean
No Jean, you're missing the point. The statistics are showing that very few of them are being prepared to show. Additionally, I was addressing the comments where folks were discussing SHOWING two year olds. Yes, I understand that they have to be ridden in order to be shown, and no, none of mine are. However, the point was that it was NORMAL for them to be shown (and therefore ridden) as two year olds. The statistics don't bear that out IMO.
Do I think that 2 year olds should be shown under saddle? No. What have *I* personally done? Not shown mine, ridden mine or started mine under saddle. Obviously, others feel the same because while 11 shows HAD the two year old classes more OFFERED them, but no one entered.
I do have to say I see a trend starting within some breeds and see more and more people saying no to training and showing two year olds. Not enough to make a huge impact yet, but it IS happening. Obviously you have the idiots who won't change because "it has always been done that way". But there is more and more out there every day changing their mind.
attafox,
>No Jean, you're missing the point. The statistics are showing that very few of them are being prepared to show.
Then post the statistics on the three year old classes. If the horses aren't being prepared to show, as two year olds, then there would be no need for three year old classes before August of any year.
And you can spew this all you want, but I can visit just about any ASB farm website, including Mr. Lavery's, look at dream horse, search youtube etc and find *hundreds* of postings that show that two year old ASBs are being ridden as two year olds.
There is simply too much evidence.
Add to that the your list was *only* for accredited ASB shows. What about the open shows that trainers attend to "season" their horses. There are several big open shows around here where TWH and ASB horses are shown before going to the big shows. We see the babies be ridden in classes, even early in the year.
Jean
No Jean, I'm not going to go back and spend more hours doing the research now that you bring up three year olds.
Previously, it was two year olds. You got stats on that. Now, you want to change it to three year olds and get more. It took hours to cypher through that amount of data.
And NO, it wasn't just USEF shows that were reported. It was all shows that are now reporting their results in order to count for qualifying for Louisville. Some are rated and some are not. The vast majority of the Kentucky shows for Saddlebreds are not USEF rated. I don't know how many did not "report." OTOH, all of the shows that have Saddlebred classes in them in the state of California were reported within the data I researched.
Obviously, we can't report on what goes on at the unreported shows, but the trend for not showing two year olds is there.
And katphoti, I am not familiar with the internal politics of the Arizona show scene, so can't comment regarding your accusations, but I do know that Carousel has changed management teams and the local AZ Saddlebred Association is now running the show. Matthew is on the BOD for that association and I just received the notice for the Carousel show that was put out by Paul, so to an outsider, it would seem that they are involved with Carousel.
attafox,
You really don't pay attention, do you?
Your quote from time/date stamp 1/16/09 8:30 PM: And katphoti, I am not familiar with the internal politics of the Arizona show scene, so can't comment regarding your accusations,
They why bring it up? I was in the MIDDLE of fighting with the Carousel board when this crap happened, so I definitely know what I'm talking about.
The worst part? About 10% of the profits from the Carousel are supposed to go to the charity of choice for that year's show. That year the charity only got $1,000--about 1% of the entire profits.
but I do know that Carousel has changed management teams and the local AZ Saddlebred Association is now running the show. Matthew is on the BOD for that association and I just received the notice for the Carousel show that was put out by Paul, so to an outsider, it would seem that they are involved with Carousel.
As you can see below, I never said they're NOT on the board for AZ Saddlebreds.
My quote from time/date stamp from 1/10/09 1:16 AM: Matthew Roberts and his boyfriend purposefully stole money from the Carousel Charity Horse Show in 2005. It paid for a new house for them. As far as I understand, they sold the house and gave the money back to avoid the lawsuit that was being developed, but I can't confirm that. It's one reason why the Desert Show Horse Assocation no longer exists and why he and Paul are no longer on the board for the Carousel. so that mild-mannered exterior certainly hides a real asshole underneath.
Matthew and Paul ran the Desert Show Horse Association (DSHA) and the Carousel for many years, and it was the 2005 show they stole from while the Carousel was under DSHA. Go ahead and call Norm Freeman or Lynn Trenery--they'll tell you all about it.
I looked at the BOD info on the AZ Saddlebreds website and Matthew is on there as a director, but Paul is not. I was told by one of the ladies who's a member of the club that the club wasn't allowing either of them to be on the board of the Carousel. But if that's changed and either of them is working on the Carousel, that's the association's perogative. And it just puts further clout to my arguments, that ASB people don't care about ethics, they only care about money. If I were a member of these groups (and I think it's obvious why I'm not), I'd demand for them to be banned from being on any AZ board from anything ASB related for life. What they did is inexcusible. But hey, nothing like the ASB community continuing to be enablers....
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You people posting "they are abusive" comments are MISINFORMED!! I show and ride my boy in a snaffle. That's IT. And guess what?? He has a high headset with very loose reins, he has high motion and he's practically barefoot, and his tail is NOT clipped, and he holds it up on his OWN. We do NOT SORE. WE ARE NOT ABUSIVE. He gets turned out into the round pen DAILY and he is ridden and lunged DAILY. He can hang his head out of his stall and he can socialize with other horses. GOSH.
I've been riding morgans since I was two. I will admit the morgan industry suffers from trainers who don't actually train the horse, they just scare them into stepping high and going forward. Real saddle seat trainers, wether it's saddlebreds, morgans, arabs, or hackneys, actually train the horse. Real trainers start lunging the horse as a yearling but don't do anything but drive untill they are 3, then they learn to ride. Real trainers keep the horses as healthy and happy as possible, because a healthy happy horse makes for a better show horse. Saddle seat is about the horse performing their airs of exuberance under control of the rider, it's about mutual respect, and having fun. The "real show horse" loves showing off and hearing the crowd roar. I do believe the Saddlebred industry could use more restrictions. The morgan industry has banned gingering, tailsetting, and any sign of blood on the horse results in immediate disqualification. Our classic pleasure horses (equal to country pleasure saddlebreds and arabs) can't have a hoof longer than 4" and can only have rim pads. Abuse only happens with the trainers who only care about money. The real enthusiasts for these breeds do everything they can to see all abuse eradicated. I also have to note, most saddle seat enthusiasts aren't gifted equitation riders, so don't judge their eq. Actually look up saddle seat equitation and you will see a beautiful and graceful harmony between horse and rider. Real saddle seat equitation riders keep this harmony with an unbreakable bond with their horse, the one anyone real from any breed or discipline has felt before. Every breed and discipline has their own bad trainers, some hide it better than others, but we have to remember that the true equine lovers of those breeds and disciplines want nothing but a inspirational and cruelty-free show atmosphere full of talented, charismatic, determined, and HAPPY horses. I think the biggest abuse saddlebreds and morgans at good barns with real trainers get, is way too many peppermints.
I find it telling that you refuse to accept what people are telling you so respectfully. In 25 years, I have never seen either device used on an ASB. To say that " if it fits, it can be used" is to suggest that it could be used on ANY horse of any breed.
As for being "gaited", this also shows a lack of research. Only a very very small percentage of saddlebreds perform more than the three usual gaits.
The horse is being judged... Not the rider, so while diagonals aren't judged, leads are. I've seen many jumpers win a class that looked to be being pulled on, bullied, or ridden poorly... Even a few where the rider almost fell off. Why? Because the rules are different. Out of curiosity? What discipline do you ride? I would love to know which one has no bad trainers, no inexperienced riders, no lame horses, and as you say, no asshats.
I grew up in a barn that has done every single thing this poster has said. For 10 years, I leaned to do these atrocities to those horses, oblivious to their pain. I held them while their tails were broken over a tail set and loose tail bone tied to itself with shoelacing to support it when out of the tail bustle. I remember blinding them inn full blinders, taking off the stall bridkes and bustles to clean each day. To make sure the stall chains were on when not worked, the stretchies on when longed. The plastic bags on a stick, fire extinguishers and ginger up the butts to make them trot or gait higher. How about tiring down that tongues so they don't rip them open on the mule bit. :'(
No those are called bell boots...
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