After World War II the horse experienced a decline of epic proportions. Farms were being modernized, automobiles were more affordable, and most cities were running out of spaces to keep a horse. The workhorse was on the way out, and horses as a mode of transportation were swiftly being replaced. However, America was not about to end its love affair with the horse. Racing was growing in popularity, as were polo, rodeo and showing. Equestrian sports replaced equine related work and the horse ended by being saved by the popularity of equine hobbyists. This is both a good, and a bad, thing.
There is no doubt that when an animal is bred to work he has a more balanced, mechanically sound conformation. You can’t plow with a horse that has a weak rear end. You can’t herd cattle for hundreds of miles with some muscle bound, tiny footed head case. You can’t deliver mail across 1100 miles on a horse that’s going to have a stress attack that’s been genetically bred into it. We all know that a true working horse is usually bred for soundness. This is where nature is our best friend, and we are her worst enemy.
What the American horse loving public has done to one of the most incredible biomechanical creations is a travesty. We should be ashamed of ourselves, really ashamed. We took an animal that could pull more than 3 times its own weight, carry 1/3 of its own body weight on its back, live on grass and water, give us affection and trust and we turned it into either a head dragging, short stepping, no impulsion pleasure horse, a bulky muscled, no brained, falling over halter horse, or some high stepping, artificial, head case. We haven’t improved on nature one single bit. We’ve created types based on aesthetics, without ever considering morphology or basic mechanics. Our vanity dictates the uselessness of our animals. And because we create such biomechanically unsound animals we then torture them to make them perform as we feel they should.
Let’s look at one of the “Made in America” breeds and examine what human vanity has done to a perfectly good horse.
The American Saddlebred comes from stock brought over from Europe. Its ancestors were originally pacing stock. They were crossed on English Thoroughbreds and the long production line that resulted in the ASB was started. Several prominent sires, including imported Messenger (Whom was also responsible for the Standardbred and some lines of TWH) Other sires that impacted the ASB are Gaine’s Denmark, Harrison Chief and during this century Rex McDonald. When you look at portraits of these horses you see balance, good legs, nice neck sets and feet that will actually support a horse.
In fact up until the 1900s a good ASB looked much like a nice TB in conformation: not as lean as the race type, but not as heavy as the hunt field type. The ASB was a working horse. It was a horse that carried generals through the Civil War and Plains Wars. It was a horse that traveled endless miles on plantations and farms, or down American roads to market. It had normal shaped feet, a natural tail and was ridden in the same manner just about every other horse was. What happened? Where did the ASB show ring go wrong and why?
I’m sure the Modern Saddlebred Breeder’s forum is going to go all freaky here, just like they did when they reviewed my blog before. According to them everyone that disagrees with their methods is a hater and just “doesn’t understand the ASB”. Seriously people, we get it. We understand exactly what you’re doing because we own horses too. We ride too. We care for horses too. And we know without a shadow of doubt that what you do to your show ASB’s is a complete and utter load of shit.
1) Why the set tails? There is no reason on this earth to break a horse’s tail, or nick the tendons. It doesn’t serve any purpose. It is vanity on your part and it subjects the horse to lifelong disfigurement. I think every exhibitor that subjects their horse to set tails needs to have their middle finger broken and tied back to the top of their hand. That way they can flip themselves off all day long for being such idiots. They should also get daily ginger enemas, just to make sure they step lightly and enjoy the day like their horses have to. Vanity and cruelty.
How would you like to sleep wearing this crap?
2)What is the deal with the long feet? Don’t try to bullshit us that it serves a purpose. Has no one in the ASB industry read a shoeing manual? Do you not understand the pressure put on the phalangeal levers by leaving that toe so long? Do you not get that creating tubed feet is just a quick trip to navicular disease? The hoof angle also impacts the knees, elbows, hocks and stifles. Poor feet can screw up the whole leg. Why don’t you shoe the horse correctly for a working horse and leaving the long toes to ballerinas?
3) What is the deal with your tack? Can you not handle your horses without bits that look like murder weapons? Don’t give me endless crap about “any bit can be cruel in the wrong hands”. Trust me, you guys are the wrong hands everyone talks about. There is no reason for a 9 inch shank on a double bridle. None. Ever. You have two bits at the end of the reins. The snaffle should be the one getting the majority of cues. I have seen ASBs shown where the curb is working almost parallel to the ground. WTF is up with that? Here’s a hint, when the horse does the thing with his chin and lower lip where he has it all wrinkled up it is because the bit and curb chain is hurting him! He’s not making faces to try to score a laugh out of the judges. He’s in pain.
10 inch shank Weymouth
3) What is the deal with your tack? Can you not handle your horses without bits that look like murder weapons? Don’t give me endless crap about “any bit can be cruel in the wrong hands”. Trust me, you guys are the wrong hands everyone talks about. There is no reason for a 9 inch shank on a double bridle. None. Ever. You have two bits at the end of the reins. The snaffle should be the one getting the majority of cues. I have seen ASBs shown where the curb is working almost parallel to the ground. WTF is up with that? Here’s a hint, when the horse does the thing with his chin and lower lip where he has it all wrinkled up it is because the bit and curb chain is hurting him! He’s not making faces to try to score a laugh out of the judges. He’s in pain.
10 inch shank WeymouthAnd the bridoons you people use are just ludicrous. Can you not use a plain smooth mouth bridoon? Must you train with things that are better suited to sawing logs in half than being in a horse’s mouth?
4. Most of us understand the principals of saddleseat. Several breeds utilize the form and do so without making their horses look like strung out torture victims. Why can’t the ASB crowd?
5. Why do we do this to a breed we created? Other than the Icelandic Horse people, there is no European counterpart to a tail set, hyperflexed, torture gaited creature. We should be ashamed of ourselves.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60DFjMenFNI&feature=related
Scuttling movement, bad hands, horse is winging like crazy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4srDmPwQ-dw&feature=related
Looks like shit. The horse is hyper reflexed. He is wearing a bit that any non-tortured horse would flip over with. Don’t try to tell me that rider isn’t heavy handing that horse, I can see the strain in his arms. I can also see the hocks and stifles locking every few steps.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXeVQKfKM5g
If this is the best of the best at DC then the ASB is in trouble. I saw the chestnut horse lose his stifle about five times in one circle. The western horse looks like crap. I can’t figure out why the horses can’t move in a straight line. I get on WP people all the time about the canted moving, but this is way worse.
5. Why do we do this to a breed we created? Other than the Icelandic Horse people, there is no European counterpart to a tail set, hyperflexed, torture gaited creature. We should be ashamed of ourselves.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60DFjMenFNI&feature=related
Scuttling movement, bad hands, horse is winging like crazy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4srDmPwQ-dw&feature=related
Looks like shit. The horse is hyper reflexed. He is wearing a bit that any non-tortured horse would flip over with. Don’t try to tell me that rider isn’t heavy handing that horse, I can see the strain in his arms. I can also see the hocks and stifles locking every few steps.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXeVQKfKM5g
If this is the best of the best at DC then the ASB is in trouble. I saw the chestnut horse lose his stifle about five times in one circle. The western horse looks like crap. I can’t figure out why the horses can’t move in a straight line. I get on WP people all the time about the canted moving, but this is way worse.
This is a weanling in a bitting rig, being lunged in a small circle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_N_JNVqFsEI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_N_JNVqFsEI&feature=related
WTF is up with that?
Here's a yearling in a bitting rig being lunged in a small circle.
These horses are babies! They shouldn't know what bits are for another few years. A weanling should not know what lunging is.
Oh, but this kind of abuse doesn't happen, we've been told so by ASB riders that have been in the business for years.
Evidently the same people that denied this crap happens in the ASB industry went over and chewed the ass of the video owner so he removed the videos. So for those of you that didn't get to see the videos here's a recap"
Bay ASB weanling in a full bitting and stretchies on his legs. He's being lunged in about a 20 foot circle, while a man with a whip/plastic bag thing chases him. His movment is jerky and stiff and his head is cranked in way to tight.
Chestnut ASB yearling in a full bitting rig. Same size circle. He moves better but is still way to tight and looks off on the outside hind leg. Asshole still has the whip/plastci bag thing.
Both these colts are verified as ASB registered.
And just because people whine that I never show the good stuff, here’s a saddlebred doing dressage. He’s relaxed, his tail is natural, he’s wearing snaffle, he’s got normal feet and a happy expression. He’s getting to do what every saddlebred should be allowed to do: show off what a horse can do without being tortured.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRpjVbiUIAA
I’ve seen good saddlebreds do everything from dressage to jumping to western pleasure to barrel racing. In 1984 an ASB won the Battle of the Breeds by competing in multiple disciplines and placing well in all of them. These horses can do just about anything you set them at, as long as they aren’t hampered by a vanity monkey on their back.
Look at these little training gadgets to keep the ASB on his toes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRpjVbiUIAA
I’ve seen good saddlebreds do everything from dressage to jumping to western pleasure to barrel racing. In 1984 an ASB won the Battle of the Breeds by competing in multiple disciplines and placing well in all of them. These horses can do just about anything you set them at, as long as they aren’t hampered by a vanity monkey on their back.
Look at these little training gadgets to keep the ASB on his toes:
The black rubber boot with the chain around the ankle is called a Ticky Tack Spat. Doesn't that look like fun to wear? The silver thing is a caulking boot! So much for the natural moving ASB.
Here’s my personal opinion: The American Saddlebred is a great horse. They have a level of tolerance that is found in very few animals. I don’t think any stock breed, Arab or TB would put up with the shit an ASB puts up with and not kill someone. I know my old horse would have dumped me and left home if I had even hinted that I was going to make him sleep all night with his tail crammed up his butt, in a harness to hold it straight. Had I used one of those shoddy bits he would have flipped over and refused to get up again. I think the ASB show industry has taken a naturally dynamic animal and turned it into a characticture of a show horse. By doing so they have earned the disdain of the horse industry. We know how talented the horse is, it’s the people we despise. When is the ASB show world going to throw off its cruel trappings and let the beautiful horse it tortures show its natural abilities? And to the saddlebred people that are going to label me a “hater”: You’re wrong. I love the horse, just despise the idiots it attracts.
And the trot.org people need to just save their breath. I'm not talking bad about the Saddlebred, it's a nice horse. I'm talking bad about the scum in your industry that you should have had the balls to get rid of years ago. I at least have the balls to speak out, which is more than you're doing. You're wasting time bitching about me when you should be kicking your breed organization in the ass and getting the cruel stuff banned.
A lot of different people contribute information to this blog. Some of the saddlebred stuff came from people within the ASB industry, so calling the blog ignorant means you're labeling part of the ASB industry ignorant.
532 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 532 Newer› Newest»AMW rider wrote:
>You claim to have seen 15 hand Yearlings in the springtime and try to back it up with Horsetopia Ads and Dreamhorse Ads (yea...we KNOW how accurate those ads are with horse hight don't we). Funny thing is that thowe ads are hights for yearlings at the END of the year, right before turning two.
Ya know, you just keep pointing out how unrealisitic you are. The photos were clearly summer photos, notice the green grass and the foaling dates were APRIL and MAY. Which means these yearlings are 6 months away from being 2 years old. The January first birthday crap only works on a horse's registration papers, not his skeletal development.
>You are telling me that the tails were tied up to heal instead of putting in a padded metal speculum - Oh, I mean metal crupper (my bad). Please tell me how you know this. What was the tail tied up with? How exactly was it tied?
I'm not Trojan but I can answer this. They are "tied" to the brace. It's usually done with vet wrap so the bandage can be changed regularly. They aren't tied with rope.
>TUFFY,
did your boss know that you shared these x-rays with your sister? Isn't there some kind of breach of confidentiality issue in sharing the veterinary records and documents of another client with someone else?
My boss showed her. Case studies do not belong to the client and as long as no names or personal gain comes from the review of x-rays and case studies they can be shown. How do you think all those veterinary and medical magazines print articles about strange diseases?
>I think you and your sister are just internet bullies that get your jollies out of bashing others.
Whatever suits you then run with it. If being a bully means telling people that they are abusing their horses then so be it. If it convinces one person to STOP using a tail brace, ginger, chains or bitting rigs then it serves a purpose.
For instance, just MAYBE that idiot with the weanling in the bitting rig will QUIT doing that stupid crap, now that he's been outed and had his ass chewed. Oh, don't I recall seeing you BULLY him on the video comments section. You didn't like what he was doing so you bitched about it. Hmm I'm seeing a black kettle in your future.
And I'll remind you that you came HERE to try to force your views on the blog owner. She didn't come to trot.org to fight with your bunch.
So who is the bully? This blog stays in one place. Read it or don't. The fact that you have spent countless posts trying, and failing, to prove the blog wrong shows who the bully is.
And I'd be quite willing to bet I've taken a hell of a lot more action against horse abuse than you have, since I've served as an expert witness in abuse cases and my opinion was sought by the court.
You don't even admit that most of the horrid things done while showing are abuse. They are only "discomfort" to you and traditional. BFD.
Tracy M.
The tongue tying stuff is the final straw. I don't care if USEF does allow it, it is cruel and plain stupid. The blog owner wins, I'm convinced the ASB industry does nothing but harbor abusers.
Poor riding
Harsh bits
Tail sets
Ginger
Chains
Pads
Poor conformation
Bitting rigs
Tongue tying
I have no use for any of it, even if it is legal. USEF should make every single one of these things illegal. I will write a letter and express my displeasure with how they are helping to abuse this breed.
AMW,
You're the bully for trying to convince people that this stuff is acceptable. I wouldn't let any of you near one of my horses.
Madgelyn
Better that they learn it from her than from "Mr. bitting rig a wearnling" backyard trainer.
TUFFY>
Oh, don't I recall seeing you BULLY him on the video comments section. You didn't like what he was doing so you bitched about it. Hmm I'm seeing a black kettle in your future.<
I had the second comment on his video before he pulled it down. Called him an idiot for using equipment like that on babies and that he was an embarrasment to the breed.
AMWrider wrote:
>I had the second comment on his video before he pulled it down. Called him an idiot for using equipment like that on babies and that he was an embarrasment to the breed.
You mean you were stating your rather strong opinion and viewpoint, regardless of his feelings? Can you prove the babies were hurt and what he did was wrong? Can you prove they were injured?
No?
Then according to your standards you ARE A BULLY.
Welcome to the club.
Afterall, we all know that a bully is in the eye of the beholder.
Is that idiot going to wake up and realize that people don't approve of his methods and that he probably cost himself some sales? I'm sure he is.
My question is when are you going to wake up, and then turn your stipulations for what constitues a bully on yourself and the rest of the Abusablers.
This blog has already helped make changes, even if it's one person at a time. What have you done?
Jean
Here are some Dreamhorse ads of weanling ASBs (2008 birth)
http://www.dreamhorse.com/show_horse.php?form_horse_id=1333012
http://www.dreamhorse.com/show_horse.php?form_horse_id=1304571
http://www.dreamhorse.com/show_horse.php?form_horse_id=1261156
(wow, that 16 hand weanling's mother must be what, 20 hands at least) LOL
Heights in ads are not all they are cracked up to be. These are projected heights at maturity. Weanlings this time of the year are typically 12 hands, they are normally not 15 hands by springtime. I just have a feeling you were not seeing yearlings.
Trojan, you said "You mean you were stating your rather strong opinion and viewpoint, regardless of his feelings? ....Then according to your standards you ARE A BULLY."
I want to point out that I have never argued anything about you hurting my feelings or the feelings of others here.
I have argued all along that I am posting because you are using flawed information, rely on too much hearsay, and have incorrect information.
I personally don't care what you think of me.
Tuffy>Ya know, you just keep pointing out how unrealisitic you are. The photos were clearly summer photos, notice the green grass and the foaling dates were APRIL and MAY. Which means these yearlings are 6 months away from being 2 years old. The January first birthday crap only works on a horse's registration papers, not his skeletal development.<
Tuffy, these are the ads you posted:
http://www.dreamhorse.com/show_horse.php?form_horse_id=1336439
http://www.dreamhorse.com/show_horse.php?form_horse_id=1334340
http://www.dreamhorse.com/show_horse.php?form_horse_id=1323800
I would like to point out that the first two ads were placed in December, only a few days ago, and the third ad was placed in November.
The heights listed are end of yearling year heights or projected maturity heighs.
I will say it again. I doubt that you saw 15 hand yearlings lunged in bitting rigs at a spring show.
Andrea,
I've stayed out of this because I think the blog makes the points well, and I agree with most of what was posted, but this statement, especially coming from a person that claims to know a lot about ASBs just got my goat.
>I will say it again. I doubt that you saw 15 hand yearlings lunged in bitting rigs at a spring show
You'd lose that bet. I routinely have 15 hand yearlings in the spring of their yearling year. When a horse is going to top 16 hands by the time he's coming 2 years old then he's going to be a tall spring yearling. I currently have a 16.2 hand horse that will not be physically two until next May. I sticked him at 15.1 in February of this year. He grew so much over the summer that we had to cut his feed back to slow him down.
So you are making a very stupid assumption to say that there can't be 15 hand spring yearlings. Anyone that has been breeding ASBs any length of time knows that some yearlings have tremendous growth spurts and they have to be fed carefully. Add castration into the mix and you can get even bigger yearlings, since gelding slows the closure of the growth plates, resulting in a taller and more refined male horse.
My family has been in ASB since the 30s. We exported some of the first ones to Europe and Africa. My father, before his death, had some of the top horses in the country. There is a memorial for my father at the KHP
I rarely show anymore, due to family and job committments, but I do have nice horses and I've raised several that have gone onto championships under a trainer's handling. I've seen this breed become something that would not have been acceptable in my father's day, and I don't like it.
Cassandra W
>>And I'll remind you that you came HERE to try to force your views on the blog owner.<<
And I'll remind you once again, I came her to correct the stupid inaccuracies of what was being said.
cruppers as speculums et.al.
Madgelyn, with all due respect. If you see abuse, please report it to the USEF, the show committee, etc. But don't do it because of stuff you read about on an internet forum. If not for some of the ASB people that have posted to correct some fo the inaccuracies, we would be looking at something akin to a Bonsai Kitty.
Go to a saddlebred barn, go to a saddlebred show, ask questions. Then write to the USEF if you feel the need to.
Heck, come visit my place if you are in or plan to visit Florida. I have an airy barn, I don't ginger, I don't use tail sets, my horses get turned out, I haven't had to tie a tongue in, well, years. I do use big bits (7 or the occasional 8 inch shank), I do use the occasional set of chains or stretchies. I do bit and long line and I do turn out. Pretty much all of my show horses are barefoot right now, but I can pull out their saved show shoes, show them to you, we can weigh them and assess the angles together.
Then Cassandra, I stand corrected. I am not in the breeding aspect of ASBs, but the ones I have been around have not been that large early in the Spring.
AMWrider,
>cruppers as speculums et.al.
You're providing an inaccuracie here yourself. No one mentioned cruppers as anything but cruppers. I believe the blog owner compared the discomfort of having a tail set under a horse's tail to being the same level of discomfort as having a speculum used.
I'd have to agree with her, having set tails on horses, and endured the yearly application of a speculum. Both make me cringe now.
I have to agree with a previous poster. I grew up with a lot of things that I considered just part of the business. I now know these things are wrong. Instead of evolving into a better breed the ASB has devolved into a show case for poor training, conformation and abuse.
My children still have ASBs, but they show them in dressage, hunt seat and pleasure ride them. They have no interest in trying to make their horses into wind up toys for the show ring.
I'm hoping that as one poster stated the archaic methods will die out as the old school people leave the breed. I hope it's true. And while I admired my father and the trainers like him that made the breed an outstanding show horse, I also know that their methods, which were once innovative, have been taken to extremes and turned into abusive techniques.
Cassandra W
"Do you honestly believe the Saddlebred industry came up with tying a tongue? Wow we are really a remarkable bunch of guys to have come up with that eh? Have you not heard the expression tongue tied? Do you know why you tie a horses tongue? Why I would ever tie my horses tongue, and I have. And furthermore why Melissa would show it in her clinic?
Well I will try... try ... try to explain. As with any other training device there are days when my horses may try this little trick of grabbing the bits and doing it their way. Yes their way, whatever that may be. Most times it is to take off in cold weather. Like a roller coaster out of control, let’s go here, let’s go there, it’s my day to train my human. I’ll go back in the barn, tie the tongue, make 2 or 3 good passes and quit. Lesson gained, work is for work and play is for turnout.
The demonstration is the proper way to do that without cutting off the blood supply. A shoelace in the wrong hands can be disastrous. Just like a saddle, a bridle, a whip, and spurs. All applied incorrectly can be detrimental to the animal. Not on purpose but out of ignorance. I can take any discipline, site the usage of any aide and turn it into a tool of the second World War. The trick with the tongue tied is you then must have hands like butter. You have restricted your animal’s most powerful device and your intent is just to show that it is just not time to play. It is useful in measured hands but as a defensive mechanism it can be deadly.
I have witnessed many a jumper, dressage horse or western horse being yanked and yanked and yanked when the same occurs. I prefer this method of tying the tongue; make a couple of good passes, and quitting. It gets the point across without harming the horse’s mouth."
So you admit it is a training device! There are other things that can be used other than a shoe string. It is the last straw! And training devices do not belong in the show ring. read the trot.org blog. I wouldnt get a saddlebred if my life depended on it. if that is what you have to do to them to get them to do what you want.
My Lord! I've had to delete and re-type this so many times just trying to calm down.
bigdog said...
>So you admit it is a training device! There are other things that can be used other than a shoe string. It is the last straw! And training devices do not belong in the show ring. read the trot.org blog. I wouldnt get a saddlebred if my life depended on it. if that is what you have to do to them to get them to do what you want.
It is a training device to teach a horse that the tongue does not go over the bit. It teaches the horse that they should not bite down on the bit and run through the bridle. Yes, we use it in the show ring. We do it because some horses are stubborn and don't want to keep their tongue under the bit or they want to take the bit between their teeth and take off (which they can still do with the tongue tie as I've had it happen to me). We don't want to use it as a daily occurance, but sometimes the horse doesn't give us any other choice. Are you going to fault us just for using a bit, too? From my experience, work bridles are used a majority of the time with a snaffle bit, martingale (german or running), and optional caveson. Tongue ties are used only when a horse is known for having a tendency to work his tongue over the bit. When he does this, it inhibits the riders ability to steer and stop, meaning no control, and it is also a discomfort to the horse. This is saving the horse that discomfort. The string is left secure, but not tight, in a pull loop (depends on how you were taught) around the tongue so as to remain comfortably loose until the horse tries to get his tongue back and over the bit. It then tightens to discourage such behavior and loosens again when he puts his tongue back. The string is tied around the lower jaw behind the chin snuggly, but not tight enough to wrinkle of furrow the skin. Full bridles are used only around show time and in extreme moderation. Maybe once or twice before the actual show. Adjustments are made on a constant basis to keep the horse wearing the bridle (work or full) comfortably and effectivly. We don't discourage the horse from moving the bit around or telling us if they aren't comfortable. Many trainers encourage such behavior to an extent. We want the horse to be moving the bit around-means they have a soft usable mouth. We want them to let us know if the rider is doing something wrong with their hands. Many horses will toss their head or lean it a certain way that means the rider's hands are moving too much or the rider is holding too tight. We have schooling horses that display such things easily without a big attitude over it. We try to teach proper hand position and use early and often. Tongue ties are only effective if the rider has good hands. Bad hands are what turn them into true pain devices. To think that we intentionally cause our horses pain is wrong. We do our best to keep them comfortable and happy. If seem to be getting tired of the show ring, they get a rest until they tell us they want back in. Many of our retirees still have the show spirit and want to go, but they either can't or can only go in a single class.
I know I will never be able to explain things so that everyone will understand rather than just calling that which looks painful abuse. Just remember that the ASB show horse's bone structure may be like that of the other breeds, but they are put together differently. All breeds are different. A Saddlebred's neck is generally placed higher on the shoulders and they instinctivly push of the rear end. We simply try to encourage this look and behavior through methods that wouldn't be used in any other discipline. We go for head up and nose in. Should the horse be unable to do this, we accomodate in ways such as head up nose not tucked as much or head not so high and nose in. I had a horse like this. His neck was set a little too far forward on his shoulders and his neck muscles were too thick for him to set his head like the big showy horses you see in the WC classes. We compromised in a way that kept him comfortable and happy. He loved his work and still does. We work toward light touch and smooth. We value finesse over strong arming. Problem being, sometimes finesse just doesn't work until you strong arm once.
I'm not trying to change your mind, just educate and show you another side of the arguements thrown around. I admit some things are barbaric and should be stopped, but I'm not going to say what is and isn't wrong. Somethings just work better for some horses.
Has it been said what discipline Mousey & Tuffy practice?? I can't wait for this!
"Has it been said what discipline Mousey & Tuffy practice?? I can't wait for this!"
It's called
"Shame in the Horse Show Ring"
Jeez, can't you read?
"I am saddened that this has become a witch hunt."
Um, what? Who is hunting witches??
"I'm open to suggestion. What do you do when your horse grabs the bit? What are your next steps?"
Go back to square one. Stop hurting the horse, start letting him (gasp) enjoy the work, if he doesn't, it ain't his fault. Jeez, it's called training.
"I'm hoping that as one poster stated the archaic methods will die out as the old school people leave the breed. I hope it's true. And while I admired my father and the trainers like him that made the breed an outstanding show horse, I also know that their methods, which were once innovative, have been taken to extremes and turned into abusive techniques."
Yes, exactly.
To horses.
asb
Sorry, it just seems so obvious to me.
If your horse has grabbed the bit and taken off, and this is a problem with these horses, I really have no idea. Other than the obvious, i.e. over-training, boredom, (which from trot.org seems to be a common problem), pain, fear of pain, fear of the rider, excess energy from no turnout, too much hot food, not enough easy-going riding etc. etc. etc.. If you want them bug-eyed, why are you surprised that they like to tear around? The ASB movements considered beautiful may just be difficult, for the horse, physically. Especially if the rider is causing pain, through seat and leg and hand aids that clash, and cause pain. Horses have a very good sense of vengeance, IMO.
In my discipline, I always ensured maximum training with minimum effects. Any horse that feels the need to do this, needs re-training on who is the leader in the situation. If the horse is having fun bolting, maybe he misses having fun. Give him his head, and tell him to go faster, if you can. That always worked for me. Surprises the heck out of them. WHAT, you aren't going to try to stop me? Wow, ok, I'll stop. It's no fun, if there's no, um, fireworks from the rider. Horses I've trained were never allowed to become runaways. But they also didn't have a mega bit in their mouth. A snaffle-bitted runaway? Wow. Ever heard of a pulley rein stop? Maybe, just maybe the horse is uncomfortable with what you're asking. Or he feels so goood, he needs to buck and fly. Or he's saying for god's sakes, get off my kidneys. I don't know, I'd
have to see the situation. Each and every horse/rider situation, as you know, is different. Maybe his bridle is bothering him. I re-trained one horse, terrible problem for the rider, hanging on her hands constantly. His brow-band was too tight. Nobody noticed, until I came along. Gave him the proper fit, and bingo, soft horse. Maybe the bit is not fitted properly. There are so many variables. Sometimes the answer is staring you in the face:)
It isn't always necessary to take out these "training devices" for horse disobediences. I've always looked to the training and the comfort of the horse, first.
Try reading Mugwump's chronicles. She's a Western Trainer, ask questions, as you are doing, and good luck.
I guess I'm saying all of the disciplines have something to offer ALL of the other disciplines.
Including good training ideas and techniques, that keep the horse happy in his job. If the horse is comfortable and happy, he'll do just about anything you ask.
To Horses. To sensible, coherent techniques, that can cross over into all other disciplines.
I'm so tired of the "great divide" between the disciplines.
Horses always respond, in kind, to their training. They can & do remember cause and effect.
asb today said...
>oh and make no mistake, when they grab the bits and run ... they are having a blast!
You bet your sweet buns they are and when it happens GoLightly better kiss her own buns goodbye because basics are not going to stop a horse when he's managed to work his tonuge over the bit and is clenching the bit between his teeth. Can you say looks like heavy hands?
GoLightly said...
>Go back to square one. Stop hurting the horse, start letting him (gasp) enjoy the work, if he doesn't, it ain't his fault. Jeez, it's called training.
What you don't seem to understand is that the horses we are talking about who "put up with our torturous traing" do enjoy their work. They are bright and happy with their ears forward nickering at those who pass by. We don't keep dark, gloomy stables as Tuffy accused us of and our horses are quite content. They are pampered and spoiled. They get treats almost daily and for you to assume that they don't enjoy they work they do is assenine. They get loads of praise and love when they are good. Bad behavior gets a firm hand and stern tone, but that doesn't translate into heavy hands. They want to make us happy because it makes them happy. They are our friends and we theirs. Think about a dog. A well raised pup will grow into a dog who strives to make his owner and friend happy. ASB's are incredibly intelligent and they can tell our moods. A horse who has been raised to view us as friends will strive to make us happy. That's animal and human nature. If you don't want to make those you care about happy then that's sad. It is in our nature to make those we care about happy and it is the same with animals. Don't assume that they despise their work when you've probably only seen the ASB's in the videos. Which the one of the DC exihibtion, those horses were all very happy. Even a horse wearing a brace can swish it's tail should it become annoyed. Ears will tell a lot about the mood of a horse. I didn't see a single ear stay back long enough to show displeasure.
Dear Lifelong Saddleseat People,
You know, I've ridden at several NICE h/j /eventing / dressage barns, and NEVER ONCE saw a horse's tongue tied down!!!!
WTF is wrong in the training/handling/psyche of these horses that makes taking the bits and running away SO COMMON???
Hot thoroughbreds etc. will occasionally do this, but it's considered a really wack problem, and not something so common that tying down a tongue is a STANDARD training practice.
I went to an old-school riding camp at a military academy one summer where the beginning and intermediate students had to use full bridles (riding a militarized version of huntseat) and the ADVANCED students used snaffles. That was weird for me, but not un-doable.
Those horses went in full bridles EVERY DAY, even if we were riding in the lake or to the orchard.
I just can't wrap my mind around so many artificial things going on. On the one hand, there ARE some nifty saddlebreds out there (thanks for the pix) that are obviously great movers by ANY standards, who are happy with their jobs etc etc etc, but on the other hand, there are many silly things - big and small - going on in the background that SHOULD be unnecessary.
Don't get me wrong, it's true that silly things happen all over the horse world, but the TOPIC AT HAND is Saddlebred weirdness.
" asb today said...
p.s. I'm all with you all on those tailsets... it's a lot of time spent on the back end of your horse."
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Ok my mind went STRAIGHT to the gutter on that one!!! ; )
" asb today said...
I have been to nice hunter jumper affairs where coming off every jump they haul back on them and jerk jerk jerk to the next jump... I don't understand it... doesn't mean it is wrong does it?"
You are absolutely right, THAT is a WRONG thing, too.
I guess I am merely pointing out that the tongue-tying tradition (say that really fast 3 times and you WILL be tongue-tied) seems so weird and.. well... OFF.... to riders from other disciplines, who were taught things like the aforementioned pulley rein for emergency brakes.
cattypex said...
>Dear Lifelong Saddleseat People,
You know, I've ridden at several NICE h/j /eventing / dressage barns, and NEVER ONCE saw a horse's tongue tied down!!!!
WTF is wrong in the training/handling/psyche of these horses that makes taking the bits and running away SO COMMON???
Hot thoroughbreds etc. will occasionally do this, but it's considered a really wack problem, and not something so common that tying down a tongue is a STANDARD training practice.
I don't remember a single one of us saying it was standard practice or common enough that it's a major problem. It is a training device, but used more as a reminder of what not to do. Maybe the other disciplines have the bits higher in the horse's mouth. Is that abuse? Or maybe their horses don't have the same mental thread our ASB's seem to have. No I'm not calling them stupid. I'm just saying that maybe they think differently.
>I went to an old-school riding camp at a military academy one summer where the beginning and intermediate students had to use full bridles (riding a militarized version of huntseat) and the ADVANCED students used snaffles. That was weird for me, but not un-doable.
Those horses went in full bridles EVERY DAY, even if we were riding in the lake or to the orchard.
That was a camp and those horses were used to it. We try to keep our horses from getting too used to the full bridle. Think of it this way. When you do something over and over again, it becomes habit and loses the effect it once had. Certain medication lose their potence after taking it too often creating the need for a higher dose. Horses can build up an immunity to the cues given in a full bridle. Those same cues are stronger in the full bridle than they are in a plain snaffle bridle hence probably why the camp chose to have those not advanced use them.
>I just can't wrap my mind around so many artificial things going on. On the one hand, there ARE some nifty saddlebreds out there (thanks for the pix) that are obviously great movers by ANY standards, who are happy with their jobs etc etc etc, but on the other hand, there are many silly things - big and small - going on in the background that SHOULD be unnecessary.
There are several things going on across the board that are unnecessary. That doesn't mean they aren't used. Stretchies are used to build strength (like much of our own excersize equipment) and muscle. Chains are used to excentuate motion, make the cadence more audible, and, for some gaited horses, to help maintain the trot. Many of our gaited horses have associated chains/leather straps/stretchies with the trot which makes it easier to practice at home.
>Don't get me wrong, it's true that silly things happen all over the horse world, but the TOPIC AT HAND is Saddlebred weirdness.
Then why compare the ASB world to others?
ps: We learn the pulley rein technique as well, but when you are going for finesse things need to go a lot smoother.
Race horse's have their tongues tied too. But that's another bad industry too, right?
And what do other English disciplines use to keep the tongue under the bar of the bit, instead of tying the tongue down? This: http://www.statelinetack.com/itemdy00.asp?T1=SLT731873
Different strokes for different folks.
Kristin said...
>Race horse's have their tongues tied too. But that's another bad industry too, right?
And what do other English disciplines use to keep the tongue under the bar of the bit, instead of tying the tongue down? This: http://www.statelinetack.com/itemdy00.asp?T1=SLT731873
Different strokes for different folks.
Dun dun duuuuuunnnnnn
Apparently, what amounts to a tongue depresser is just fine even though our technique gives when they stop.
They're pretty big, too!
I never said I liked racehorses' tongues being tied.
The rubber bit port? Never used one, don't know if it's bad or not.
All I was saying is that if tongue-tying in ANY discipline is commonplace, then - like Go Lightly said - back-to-basics training is indicated.
If your horse is ignoring your cues and running away with you, it's a little late for finesse.
OTOH, yes, the Sparkly Show Diva in me definitely buys the full-bridles-are-for-show thing, though the Trailrider Hippie part wishes ... differently, somehow. ; )
cattypex;
As a little girl, we had one bridle for everything. Trail rode in a double bridle all over. My mom still trail rides in a double. I trail ride in a hackamore.
Also trail rode in my cutback saddle, which was far more comfortable for both of us. Unfortunately, as I'm the one usually packing all the extra gear now, I usually have a Western saddle to accommodate bags, etc.
And one more thing -
Tongue tying. Is it done? Yes. Is it commonplace? IMO, no.
mickeyd is right--SS Morgans don't have their tongues tied down, nor do Arabs. It's becoming less and less commonplace in the ASB world, too.
That being said, I have no issue with tying tongues down. Especially since I've seen what a horse tongue looks like when the horse has bit himself ... I'd rather the tongue out of the way and held beneath the bit then see it sticking out the side, or all bloodied and hanging by a thread.
It all boils down to legalities vs. opinions on these issues. PETA/HSUS doesn't make laws, they only try to push their weight around thru tactics that aren't always above the law. PETA has become a four letter word in many circles, thus losing credibility with many people.
No matter how much arguement there is on either side of the fence, opinions don't matter one little bit. Tail cutting is illegal in a small portion of states. Other than that, chains, tail sets, bitting harnesses, tongue ties, double bridles, and just about any training equipment is legal everywhere as long it doesn't involve soring. What isn't legal is neglect, starvation, and blatent cruelty such as, but not limited to, excessive beating of a horse, dragging a horse behind a vehicle.
So every arguement here is a moot point/statement of opinion. T.M. here can go out and scream about this in the street all she wants to, scream about it on the internet, and it doesn't matter one iota because legally, Saddlebred people are allowed to train their horses in whatever manner they deem necessary.
It doesn't matter which side of the fence I'm on and I'll leave readers to figure it out for themselves - Saddlebred folks are on the side of the law. If there are those who want to believe these people are abusing their horses, then you have that right to do so but it is only an OPINION.
I have no idea who started the whole "we tie tongues down to keep the horses from running off" crap, but that is pure BS.
Tongues are tied to keep the horse from playing with the bit, getting his tongue over, etc. IMHO, it is a shortcut that some trainers use instead of taking the time to teach the horse to keep its tongue where it belongs.
Tying a tongue will NOT stop the horse from grabbing the bits, getting too strong, taking off, etc. It WILL keep the horse from getting his tongue out of position (over the bit or sucking it up into their throat) but I don't believe most ASBs ever do this sort of thing to begin with!
However, a lot of trainers just tie the tongue, whether it's needed or not. More of a preventative measure I suppose. Personally I don't like it. I won't tie a tongue unless the horse has a verifiable and REPEATED problem with how to wear his bridle - and then I try to retrain that horse so he does not need the tongue tie.
It's a crutch, that's all. I don't think it's cruel or abusive - the horse can breathe, swallow, chew, do all the normal functions - and in fact, most of our trainers work horses without a cavesson, so... which is worse? A (properly tied) tongue that is restrained (but able to function almost normally) or a crank noseband or tight figure 8 cavesson?
Methinks I'd rather tie a tongue, and methinks my horse would agree.
Anyhow, my preference is NEITHER. I'd like an untied tongue and a nice loose normal cavesson, thank you very much. And that is what MOST of our horses wear.
(BTW, my boy is currently undergoing tongue tie rehab school LOL. When his tongue is not tied, he plays too much with his bits and forgets he's supposed to be paying attention to me... perhaps some ADD meds would be of use? :))
Chelsea
My buns are just as sweet as asb's, thank you very much:)
You made me laugh.
I was going to bring up dogs, and you beat me to it.
Think about the mantra that is helping DOGS.
Exercise
Discipline
affection
IN THAT ORDER.
Ok, now, of course, once you are on a runaway, you are being runaway with. Think about it. By a 1500lb horse. There isn't a bit made, that will stop a runaway, if they have a mind to do it. A runaway is running from SOMETHING.
You missed the point I was making, entirely.
What difference does it make to the horse, if you suck on his face all day long, and treat him, and comb his purty mane, as to how he behaves when ridden? Hello?
"Horses can build up an immunity to the cues given in a full bridle."
Rider"Listen to me dammit." Horse"Only if I want to".
They gotta want to. They can keep their ears up through some pretty painful stuff, you know. It's called flight/fear. Where the heck else do they have to go?
"Chains are used to excentuate motion, make the cadence more audible, and, for some gaited horses, to help maintain the trot. Many of our gaited horses have associated chains/leather straps/stretchies with the trot which makes it easier to practice at home."
Accentuate,sorry I'm a spelling nerd.
That is still not something I can get my mind to believe. How you ever watched dressage? Sorry, I mean GREAT dressage? Have you ever heard of a metronome? Those "aids" can be so easily misused. The thoughts on them made sense to me. As in, no, thank you.
Maybe the horse feels the same way. They do like to exact revenge, you know, as I mentioned:)
"Then why compare the ASB world to others?"
It's the topic, goopy. ASB & weirdness.
Thank you CattyP:)
I'll happily rant on H/J hard hands, any day of the week.
Please, re-read my post.
"back-to-basics training is indicated.
If your horse is ignoring your cues and running away with you, it's a little late for finesse."
You rock, CattyP.
"Especially since I've seen what a horse tongue looks like when the horse has bit himself ... I'd rather the tongue out of the way and held beneath the bit then see it sticking out the side, or all bloodied and hanging by a thread."
Was that before, or after the said training aid was used? Just askin.
Never, ever heard of such a thing. Poor horse. A Saddle Horse?? Hell, there are jumpers that gallop around the ring with their tongues hanging out, never heard of one biting themselves. I guess ASB's are not Einsteins, either?
I don't care what you call them, they are STILL HORSES. They are no more, and no less intelligent/sensitive-to-pain/flight/herd animals. ALL OF THEM.
asb
"Don't you? You never repremand your horses? Ever?"
Reprimand (sorry again). I would always, always, always reprimand myself first. What have I done wrong? Always. (Okay, now I will say I did really really REALLY dumb things to horses as a kid, but I did learn the better way) I reprimand poor ground manners, on the ground. In the tack, if you start an argument, you have to finish it. Why start it? 1500lbs will win, anyway. I rode a club-footed conformation (!!) hunter, who'd been abused and abused. He could not bend to the right. Nope, he couldn't, ever. He would not yield his top-line, at all, to anyone. Flexion? No, Tension, Yes. Draw reins, side-reins, tied his head to his right side, (none of this by me) yadayadayada. He actually won a little bit, but became unride-able at shows. Perfect horse for me:)
Anyway, nope, I never, ever got mad at him, while in the tack. He was a shit in the stall too, but that's a different kettle/pot/black:)
It's the wrong attitude to take. Never work angry. Ever.
He learned to soften, with me.
It's all about release of pressure, not increase of pressure.
"Anyhow, my preference is NEITHER. I'd like an untied tongue and a nice loose normal cavesson, thank you very much. And that is what MOST of our horses wear."
That's excellent to hear.
I have to kind of agree about PeTA, sorry. Although I would never discount their $$budgets. They have lots of $$, because all they do is moan about animals. They don't actually support shelters, or anything useful to the ACTUAL animals, it seems to me anywho..
I just hope the discussion keeps moving forward.
Abuses happen everywhere, saying they don't exist doesn't make them go away.
I think we have quorum.
:)
Ride them forward!
To Horses.
GoLightly, I saw bitten tongues before I ever put my butt on a Saddlebred or Morgan, when I was a hunter/jumper/dressage rider. You know what they say about making assumptions, right?
I've been riding for 18 years, and a licensed instructor for going on 5 (MA requires riding instructors to have done a 6 month apprenticeship as well as teach 60 hours of lessons, then take a written exam. When I did this, I was NOT a Saddleseat rider, I was a Dressage rider). 6 of those I was a Hunter/Jumper. 10 of those I was a classical dressage rider. The past 2, I finally put my ass on some class and rode ASBs and Morgans! That isn't to say I don't love my dumbbloods, I leased a phenomenal Hanoverian for quite some time, but there is nothing like riding a Saddlebred or Morgan. I love hanging out with my friend's Holsteiner, but I am getting out of that world more and more as the time goes by.
I used to be like a lot of you: I thought everything about Saddleseat was disgusting and despicable. It took my best friend over FOUR YEARS to open up my eyes, and that included visiting some of the TOP ASB barns in the nation and taking lessons on Saddlebreds. And then it all clicked. We know rumors destroy people and reputations and I had believed all these rumors. You have to EDUCATE YOURSELF and do your homework--and by that I mean actually VISITING Saddlebred barns and taking lessons and learning. An open mind is all we're asking for.
Please, if you are ever able, go visit Simpsonville and Shelbyville, Kentucky, go to the Shelby County Tourism Board and get in their van and take a tour of Undalata Farm. Undalata is one of the top ASB barns in the nation, maybe even the world, and Mr. Bennett is a gracious host. Ask questions, listen and watch. You will not be disappointed, and while you don't have to start riding Saddleseat, maybe you can help stop the rumors and educate others about this awesome, versatile breed and fun, flashy sport.
Oh, one more point. Weighted bell boots that are used like chains. SS trainers aren't the only ones that use them. Dressage trainers do too, in addition to cavaletti and other cross-training. And, you'd be surprised at how many SS barns are starting to cross-train with Dressage, and how it's doing wonders for everyone all around.
bigdog said...
"Just because it is "allowed" in competition doesn't make it right. Its in the same category as all of the other things your breed does, oh its allowed but it looks bad for your breed. there are just to many things your breed does that other breeds dont that are too extreme. this is one of them. Its bad training and to have a trainer tell you the "correct" way to tie one. Well it just doesnt look good."
And that is the difference between opinions, ethics and legalities. What one entity perceives as wrong and another person perceives as right can be polar opposites. "Extremes" don't constitute abuse in the eyes of the law so essentially, unless it is illegal or against USEF rules and regulations (or whatever controlling entity is managing a horse show), there is absolutely nothing you can do about it,unless of course, you want to try a few PETA tactics and we all know that doesn't make anything right.
I have read the majority of posts here and 90% of it is based strictly on opinion - a waste of cyber space and accomplishes nothing. It's a good thing Hitler didn't have the internet as his disposal but plenty of people like him sure do.
vlayne,
"I MUST dispute your claims of industry-wide abuse and mistreatment."
It depends on what is considered abuse. I think holding a horse in an upsidedown frame causing a swayback, pushing them into the bit, forcing swan necks, using gadgets to force a certain gait or look, and other such problems are abuse. ASB owners think it's not and call it training. Whatever.
I also cannot stand this garbage of ASB owners defending themselves by telling us that what we see in the show ring and what we've seen at one or two barns is not the way it should be done. You know what? How the hell are we supposed to know what should and shouldn't be done when this is what we see? I'm sorry, but I'm not going to go galavanting around the country looking at every single ASB barn that exists to see if someone will prove me wrong. Actions speak louder than words. If the ASB people want to clean up their image then start doing it by being at the shows with normal-looking horses. The visual of what these horses look like is not desirable to the general public and WILL turn people off to the Saddlebred, whether you like it or not. It's the same with the Big Lick TWHs and other extremes in other breeds. The QH WP horses with their painfully slow jogs and low heads are also being shunned by the outside community.
What nees to start happening is what I gather is the point of this blog as a whole (please correct me if I'm wrong, TJM): for people to stop relying on mechanics, manipulation, chemicals, whatever, to force their horses into a certain frame or certain movements and start learning how to ride and spending years of quality training with the horse. For judges to stop rewarding extremes and start rewarding normalcy and what is actually written in the rulebooks. For people to start taking time with the 2 yos and 3 yos and actulaly train them rather than forcing them into the show ring at such young ages.
But, everyone's an exception. The WP people can bitch about ASB people while they tie their horses head's up in the stalls to weaken their neck muscles. The ASB people bitch about the TWH people while they put their yearlings in body braces and tail sets and force them to wear them 24/7. It doesn't matter--everyone's an expert at their own breed and what they do to it is NEVER wrong.
Oh, and for the record, amwrider offered to send me the Auburn study but didn't. It wasn't in my spam box either. Oh well.
Kristin:
"I used to be like a lot of you: I thought everything about Saddleseat was disgusting and despicable."
What?
Not what I've said, ever. I love to watch the good ones, ALWAYS have. That you saw that in H/J is just as surprising. Pardon me for thinking it happened to a SB. We were on that topic, I believe.
"I have read the majority of posts here and 90% of it is based strictly on opinion - a waste of cyber space and accomplishes nothing. It's a good thing Hitler didn't have the internet as his disposal but plenty of people like him sure do."
Wow. Just wow. Susan, get a grip, on your own reality. That was really, really sick. Are you alright?
Too bad for you, that differing opinions are akin to Auschwitz. You need help.
To ALL Horses.
FFS!
Sorry Golightly - hate to disappoint, but no, I'm not insane, unless a lifetime of loving horses constitutes being insane. My view of Hitler's psyche was that he was a person who believed his way was the only way. Jews were diametrically opposite of what he believed should occupy this planet. Unfortunately, from what I've seen here, those of you who believe the way a Saddlebred is trained is so wrong, are taking the same stance he did - "it's very different so it must be wrong". Judgements are flying here left and right. While not everything used to train a Saddlebred is probably an essential, whether it is really "wrong/abusive" or not, is STRICTLY opinion based on posters' personal knowledge of horses, or lack of...
There are people that I've encountered who believe it is cruel to ride a horse, bridle a horse, etc. so it is all about perception. Just because something is different, in that you've never tried it yourself, or want to try, does not mean that it is abusive. Yes, there are some things that are obviously abusive such as soring, but gimmicks/gadgets come a dime a dozen and not every gimmick is a torture device. Anything that is incorrectly used on a horse can be detrimental to a horse's well being, but idiots aside, there are professionals who do know how to properly use many gadgets to get the desire result.
In this day and age, when insurance is at an all time high, if there are gadgets that allow us to train a horse more safely so that we humans don't get hurt, then by all means, they should be used and not frowned upon. A bitting harness, long lines, light chains,etc., are nothing more than a tool to allow teaching a horse from the ground.
From my own observations, it just seems that training implements used by Saddlebred people are like anything else used on horses - used correctly - they do a good job of teaching a horse how to carry himself.
"Tongues are tied to keep the horse from playing with the bit, getting his tongue over, etc. IMHO, it is a shortcut that some trainers use instead of taking the time to teach the horse to keep its tongue where it belongs.
Tying a tongue will NOT stop the horse from grabbing the bits, getting too strong, taking off, etc. It WILL keep the horse from getting his tongue out of position (over the bit or sucking it up into their throat) but I don't believe most ASBs ever do this sort of thing to begin with!
However, a lot of trainers just tie the tongue, whether it's needed or not. More of a preventative measure I suppose. Personally I don't like it. I won't tie a tongue unless the horse has a verifiable and REPEATED problem with how to wear his bridle - and then I try to retrain that horse so he does not need the tongue tie."
This is the most reasonable post I have read. I agree with almost all of it. But I don't think a "Crutch" or training devices ie tongue tie should not be rewarded or allowed in the show ring. Train all you want with it, but keep it out of the show ring. The "rubber port bit" works I've used it and it folds over the bit so the pasifier part snaps into the bottom and folds over the port or the bit or the snaffle part of the bit. So it is not as long as it looks in the photo and it is half the size. That is designed to keep the tongue from going over the bit. A well schooled horse should not need a tongue tie and if it does then it should be marked down for it use if you are going to allow it in the show ring. The rubber port bit accomplishes the same thing, but you can't see it and tongue is not tied. WAY different! Also if you are going to allow tongue ties then regulate it. Let the judge decide. All things being equal two clean rides one with a tongue tie, one without. I pick the one without! Because if you had a horse that needed a tongue tie in the ring you wouldn't get a clean ride if it wasn't on his tongue. Not only are we looking for a good performance but we are looking for a well schooled horse.
But I don't think a "Crutch" or training devices ie tongue tie should not be rewarded or allowed in the show ring.
oops I meant to say
I think a "Crutch" or training devices ie tongue tie should not be rewarded or allowed in the show ring.
"it's very different so it must be wrong".
Nope, not the way I feel at all.
Sorry.
Good luck.
To all horses.
Regarding tongue ties:
They do not keep a horse's tongue from getting up over the bit. My husband's TWH gelding is KING of getting his tongue up over the bit. We used a tie for years and it never worked. You know what actually DOES work? Proper flexion, teaching him to give to the bit, and riding him in a correct frame. When he gets fussy and puts his tongue over the bit, we start doing more flexion exercises and get his head back in gear. He relaxes and doesn't put his tongue over the bit anymore.
WOW! Using true training without pain or gadgets to get the horse to do what you want it to do! IMAGINE THAT!
Susan said: "...unless a lifetime of loving horses constitutes being insane."
ROTFL! That is so funny! I had to laugh at that. I think if that's true, then all of us on this blog are insane!
They do not keep a horse's tongue from getting up over the bit. My husband's TWH gelding is KING of getting his tongue up over the bit. We used a tie for years and it never worked. You know what actually DOES work? Proper flexion, teaching him to give to the bit, and riding him in a correct frame. When he gets fussy and puts his tongue over the bit, we start doing more flexion exercises and get his head back in gear. He relaxes and doesn't put his tongue over the bit anymore.
WOW! Using true training without pain or gadgets to get the horse to do what you want it to do! IMAGINE THAT!
Bravo!!! I don't think they work either. And why does USEF allow tongue ties for some breeds and not others? Because the rules are governed by the breed more than they are by USEF. The Saddlebred people can stop allowing them in the show ring if they want. They can even specify age of horse, discipline, whatever. Why don't they do it??? W
Um, Susan:
"Unfortunately, from what I've seen here, those of you who believe the way a Saddlebred is trained is so wrong, are taking the same stance Hitler did".
Um, how exactly? Do you even know any history? I do not recall, lets, see now, mass extermination, unspeakable, terrible death. That is our Stance?
Seriously, get some help.
One can love something, and still need help.
Weird, just plain weird.
Oh, well, maybe you are 10 years old, as I was assumed to be.
Good luck to the horses. My god, that still gives me chills, thinking the way you THINK I'm thinking.
Maybe, instead of seeing, ("from what I've "seen") you should be reading? Open minds can change things. Closed, hard minds never, ever do.
That's a huge problem, in the entire horse industry.
I'm for humane treatment of all animals, including humans. Including you.
Are you?
Golightly - I don't think I need to repeat myself but it's obvious you have trouble comprehending reading my posts. If you don't get it, then you just don't get it and there's nothing I can do to spell it out to you.
The message is that you should not stereotype or pre-judge so quickly. Those of you who post here regularly seem to be very quick to judge what you don't want to understand. THAT was exactly what Hitler was infamous for doing. Now...if you still don't get it, you really must be 10 years old.
ANDREA said
"I also cannot stand this garbage of ASB owners defending themselves by telling us that what we see in the show ring and what we've seen at one or two barns is not the way it should be done. You know what? How the hell are we supposed to know what should and shouldn't be done when this is what we see?"
What have you seen? You saw one video of someone lunging a weanling and one video of the same person lunging a yearling. This is what you saw and assume that it is commonplace...never mind the fact that there are about 60 other videos of ASB weanlings and yearlings but no others show this.
Someone tells you of ONE trainer they witnessed at ONE show unloading horses in bitting rigs. Did she mention how many other barns were at the show? How many other trainers unloaded their horses without bitting rigs? Funny, she never mentioned that. This person also says she judges dozens of open shows that have ASB classes so I am sure she has seen lots of ASBs unloaded at lots of shows unloaded normally.
The offer of the Auburn study still stands, your website just has lots of different emails on it and I wanted to make sure I had the right one. I haven't checked my email to see if you replied to the email I sent to verify yours
...I have also been kept very busy today with horses to work, a hay delivery, a farrier appointment for 4 horses and 9 riders needing lessons.
OK Andrea, if you are "katphoti" then you have mail.
imnoidiot wrote:
>Has it been said what discipline Mousey & Tuffy practice?? I can't wait for this!
Hmm let's see, I've gotten championships in WP, western riding, reining, hunter under saddle, jumping, hunter over fences, barrel racing, pole bending, dressage, three day eventing, cross country jumping, saddleseat, rookie awards in polo and chariot racing.
I've tried and experienced a broad spectrum of events, I have the trophies, award saddles, ribbons, videos and photos to prove it.
I also write and publish articles on horse care, training, equine safety, equipment and numerous other things.
So if you want to come to my house, look at my trophy room and equine library, as well as my tackroom, then come ahead, I'd be glad to have you visit.
And just for you AZ people, I'm the one that used to ride the grey Arab gelding and do the counter canter demos on Western Riding at the big Arab shows to show how easy it is to do minimally cued lead changes.
Tracy M
http://thehorsediary.blogspot.com/
AMWrider wrote:
>What have you seen? You saw one video of someone lunging a weanling and one video of the same person lunging a yearling. This is what you saw and assume that it is commonplace...never mind the fact that there are about 60 other videos of ASB weanlings and yearlings but no others show this.
>Someone tells you of ONE trainer they witnessed at ONE show unloading horses in bitting rigs.
The irony of your statements is the you evidently haven't seen a thing, yet you completely deny stuff exists, even after people tell you about it.
I MENTIONED one horse, I NEVER said he was the only horse we saw unloaded in a bitting rig. He was the only on that fell out of the trailer though. You've made ASSumptions all through your postings and been proven wrong on every single issue, to the point that even long term ASBs owners reprimmand you statements.
You haven't disproven a single thing that I, or anyone else, has posted. You have stated several times that because you've never seen it then it isn't the norm.
Sounds like you need to get out more. People aren't going to write novels about all their past experiences in a post. I'm not going to post every single ASB experience I've had in the past 30 years. I am going to cite specific examples that show case specific occurances. So don't ASSume just because I mention ONE particular horse that I've only seen it happen ONE time.
As Cassandra pointed out, in agreement with me about the 15 hand weanlings, you'd lose a lot of your bets.
The "bloodbath" has been created by YOU behaving in a manner you accuse the blog owner of doing, denying things that are proven through videos and multiple statements, as well as just plain lack of knowledge about equine biomechanics, bits, caustic agents and other things that any real horseman would know.
You accuse others of being bullies, when they offer proof of wrong doing, but you are trying to bully us with your ignorance about breeding, training, equipment and such.
The "blood" popped over here from the trot forum. And from the self-righteous denial I see going on it's evident that the "mop" to clean up the ASB industry is going to have to come from the outside.
Tracy M
http://thehorsediary.blogspot.com/
Okay let me explain some things here. First of all, Vlayne is right. Tying a tongue will not keep a horse from running through the bridle and I have already said as much. Some simply think it does, true or not. And I still don't see what Andrea means by upside down frame. For one thing, we don't want swaybacks. We encourage our horses to have straight backs. The term "dropping their backs" is used in relation to not hunching. We want a straight back with their hips and hindquarters under them and pushing off of those hind legs. We discourage a concave back just as we discourage a convex back. A straight back is how we get true rear impulsion. I still don't get the upside down comment, but maybe it's just a term I've never heard used before. Our "frame," as some of you are calling it, is to be square with even strides and true gaits. This means that a trot a two beat gait with even foot falls. Canter, three beat, not four. We have our own disagreements about the slow gait and rack being true four beat gaits, but that seems to be a matter of opinion.
As to the criticism regarding whether or not we are thoroughly training our horses or not, that is a matter of opinion, also. Good basic training can still result in problems down the road if the continuation of a horse's training is botched at some point. A good start can be ruined if the the next steps aren't handled properly. From my experience, any bad steps can be fixed if the trainer is patient and gentle. It takes time to undo such measures and can involve some equipment that most would see as strange. As I said before, we encourage a horse moving the bit around to an extent. Too much and they stop paying attention, but no movement at all means the same thing.
I can't speak for every one of the ASB people on here, but I can speak for myself. I use terms such as, "From my experience," and "From what I've seen," because I can't speak for the entire industry. I can only speak for what information I have been privy to in my 16 years of experience. I may not like everything I see done, but that doesn't mean I'm going to throw someone under the bus just because of my opinion. If it looks like abuse and seems to be hurting the horse (yes, I can tell the difference), I say something, but otherwise there's no reason. Opinion is just that, opinion. Just because I don't like it doesn't mean it's wrong.
CATTYPEX
"Dear Lifelong Saddleseat People,
You know, I've ridden at several NICE h/j /eventing / dressage barns, and NEVER ONCE saw a horse's tongue tied down!!!!"
Because they use flash cavesons, crank nosebands, figure 8 cavesons, etc. to keep the mouth closed. That is why you don't see a tongue tie in those disciplines.
Ok, Susan.
If that's how you feel, so be it.
You don't seem to get it, either.
Hitler was still a very low blow, to those of us that actually know history.
To say I'm stereotyping, as he did, is just plain crazy. Talk about mud-slinging. Witch Hunt. I've think you've reached a true bottom feeding level of excrement-throwing. Score one for "your" side?
That's what scares me, about you.
Tell me, do you like people in general? I don't much either, generally, but I sure as heck don't compare differing opinions to the Holocaust.
If you don't get that, sorry. That is scary.
"No matter how much arguement there is on either side of the fence, opinions don't matter one little bit. Tail cutting is illegal in a small portion of states. Other than that, chains, tail sets, bitting harnesses, tongue ties, double bridles, and just about any training equipment is legal everywhere as long it doesn't involve soring. What isn't legal is neglect, starvation, and blatent cruelty such as, but not limited to, excessive beating of a horse, dragging a horse behind a vehicle."
Oh, I see. As long as it's legal. Anti-semitism was legal, too. Hitler LOATHED blacks, too, and Poles and Russians, etc.etc. I believe we stopped that, in WW2. Maybe I'm wrong. Do you hate Jews or something? Pissed off that the Allies won? Opinions do count, whether you like them, or not. It's called (are you ready?) Democracy. (ducks) Does that mean that you are guilty of the same stereotyping, of dissenting opinion? Yes, I think so.
You never did answer my question.
Are you pissed that dragging a horse behind a trailer is illegal? Weird, weird, weird.
I do not stereotype. I repeat, because you don't seem to get it, that I've seen good/great SaddleSeat. I would ask that you admit that there is bad SaddleSeat, too. Or is that just too much for you?
There is shame in ALL show rings.
How do you think positive change comes about?
Bad riding, bad training, bad ideas, quick cruel fixes are out there. WTF is wrong with opinionating on it? I'll never forget the camels aka TWH videos TJM posted. Those horses backs were severely deformed/twisted, lame so lame in their back ends, it hurt just to watch. All from practicing an impossible way of going, at a very young age. I KNOW that wasn't an ASB. It was still wrong.
Amazing, just amazing.
asb
If she builds to a runaway, you need to break that cycle. More gentle, downward And upward transitions. She may just be training you. Let her blow her steam, on your terms. Ask her to build, before she offers it. Keep her guessing what you're going to do next. Smart horses love that.
I don't think anyone that's posted disagreed with kind training methods, and proper levels of education, on the RIDER's part.
Sheesh.
I understand, Susan, I do, very, very well.
I hope you can work through your rage, I really do.
ASB, yes I think there is hope. That you felt some, is hope enough.
To the horses.
As I have said before. I do not deny that things such as you describe may or may not happen.
I argue that much of what you are touting that happens is not the norm as you would like to have people believe.
I argue that there were many inaccuracies stated that I wanted to correct.
Regarding the size of 12 month old yearlings, OK, I suppose I have pie on my face by saying that a 12 month old wouldn't be 15 hands. Apparenly your experience and Cassandra's experiences are different. I do have limited knowledge of yearlings and have yet to run into 15 hand 12 month old babies for a breed whose adult size averages 16 hands.
I understand what you are saying about the biomechanics, but don't assume I dont' understand them just because you kept changing the subject. You brought up soft tissue damage and when I refuted it with the Auburn study you changed the subject to hoof wall damage.
No matter what your opinion is or my opinion is, the Auburn study is a scientific study with quantifiable research which resulted in the findings that 6 oz or lighter chains did not do damage.
Again, quantifiable research, not opinion. Yet you refuse to acknowledge this.
"Because they use flash cavesons, crank nosebands, figure 8 cavesons, etc. to keep the mouth closed. That is why you don't see a tongue tie in those disciplines."
Nope, actually the great riders don't want to use these in training. Maybe, in a big class. Great dressage trainers, same thing. Watch Michael Matz in his heyday. Snaffle bit, plain cavesson, all you really need. Oh, and great training, and great sympathetic/empathic hands/seat/leg.
As vlayne said.
Bad things happen in ALL disciplines. Great riding also happens in ALL disciplines.
Good night.
(reposting because the first one got eaten)
AMWrider wrote:
>I understand what you are saying about the biomechanics, but don't assume I dont' understand them just because you kept changing the subject. You brought up soft tissue damage and when I refuted it with the Auburn study you changed the subject to hoof wall damage.
>No matter what your opinion is or my opinion is, the Auburn study is a scientific study with quantifiable research which resulted in the findings that 6 oz or lighter chains did not do damage.
Here you go again. You CANNOT discuss the hoof of a horse without talking about both soft tissue, such as the coronary band, and the harder tissue of the hoof wall and inner workings of the phalangeal levers. The hoof can be affected by damage to any one of these things.
Chains damage the heel bulbs, coronary band AND the upper tissue of the actual hoof surface. They also damage the blood vessels that surround the pastern. It has been PROVEN by ultrasounds, thermography and infrared photography. The percussion of a trotting horse on striking the ground is MORE than the percussion of a pacing horse. This is a proven fact. I have not deviated from this stance since the first post I made on it. If you can't keep up then just say so and I'll use smaller words.
Tracy M
AMWrider wrote:
>Where is my proof? Remember I grew up in the Hunter/jumper ring and dabbled a little bit with dressage before going into the Saddlebreds.
So? We're supposed to take your word when you've been a doubting thomas about everything everyone else has posted?
You can't have it both ways. If we're to accept your blanket statements with no proof then you owe us the courtesy of accepting ours.
(hopefully this won't get eaten too)
Tracy M
http://thehorsediary.blogspot.com/
OK, kids, this thread is convuluted enough as it is. I'm deleting the irrelavent stuff and no more Nazi comments or I'll delete those posts too!
Jean
And TJM, Tuffy-
I apologize for my thinking you were the same person. I even said it was possible to have the same initials and be siblings. Two of my uncles are like that. I apologized then and I will apologize again now. I'm sorry for that. It just isn't very common.
Chelsea,
It's our parents that need to apologize. Having 5 kids with the same initials has plagued us our whole lives. When we were in school it was impossible to mark anything without putting your whole name on it. Which is why I use my middle name now.
Jean
Okay since my last post was either deleted or didn't go through, here I go again. The tongue tying issue. Just because you don't see a shoe string or something else around the horse's jaw doesn't mean there isn't something there. The rubber port that was mentioned earlier, which is essentially a hard rubber tongue depressor, is not as forgiving as a tongue tie. At least the tie has give to it. The rubber port pretty much looks like it would restrict all movement with no reward for the discontinuation of the unwanted behavior. Which would you rather use? An unseen, unforgiving device? Or one that doesn't restrict all movement and gives when the tongue isn't behaving badly? Hopefully this one will stay up. This is relevant. There have been accusations that tongue tying is abuse.
It appears I touched a nerve in Golightly. He/she feels the need to accuse me of rage and being insane which is a shame when all I'm doing is stating my own personal opinion.
Also, TM, to the best of my knowledge, it is not childish to discuss Hitler, or compare the likes thereof so if you don't like what I post here, if the shoe happens to fit your like, then so be it.
The Saddlebred folks have given it their all to reason with those of you throwing stones and obviously it is impossible. Most Saddlebred owners I know are very good people, treat their horses like their own children, and in fact, don't go out and start blogs to sling dirt.
It's too bad some of you don't follow their lead - they're a class act.
Tuffy or whoever you are
"The percussion of a trotting horse on striking the ground is MORE than the percussion of a pacing horse. This is a proven fact. I have not deviated from this stance since the first post I made on it."
I have not said one statement about any kind of purcussion of a horse at a trot. You keep harping on it. Of course a trot has more percussion! I am not arguing the point.
The point is....you keep changing the subject every time I bring up the Auburn study which measured pressure points and thermography.
The Auburn study that indicated......use of 6 oz chains are not detrimental to the horse.
What study are you looking at?
You haven't told me what saddlebred show you witnessed these horrors at, you haven't told me what Appaloosa show you were attending so I could verify dates of the corresponding ASB show, and you haven't told us what study you are referring to.
TUFFY said
"You can't have it both ways. If we're to accept your blanket statements with no proof then you owe us the courtesy of accepting ours."
I am not having it both ways, I am playing this by your way.
Susan,
It is childish to discuss Hitler and apply the applications of the Holocaust to the horse show ring. There is a *big* difference in genocide and a dispute about what is show ring abuse and what isn't.
I have no problem with free speech, but please use some discretion when using analogies that can be offensive to some races, religions, or personal origins.
Thank you,
Jean
AMWrider wrote:
>I am not having it both ways, I am playing this by your way.
If that was the case then there wouldn't be so many posts from you disputing what I, and several others, said.
You've been disclaiming things here and then posting your misinformation on the trot forum. Nor have you posted corrections over there.
Tracy M
http://thehorsediary.blogspot.com/
AUBURN STUDY INFO CORRECTION:
Hey folks. amwrider did send me the Auburn Study, and I found that the information about thrush and laminitis in horses wearing pads was actually a letter written to the USDA by one of the vets who did the Auburn Study. Here's the text in case anyone wants to know....
Letter from Auburn University to USDA,APHIS:
(Begin quote) "February 19, 1982
Dear Dr. Schwindaman:
We have yet to carry out the formal steps to determine the effects of built-up pads on Tennessee Walking Horses. Over the years, however, we have experienced what the group considers a high rate of thrush in the horses we have shod with pads and used in tests. Although it is not readily apparent on clinical observation we have observed with thermovision varying degrees of abnormal inflammation on the posterior aspect of the metacarpal area where the flexor bundle is located. This usually occurs the day after a horse has been freshly shod, whether or not he is exercised daily, and lasts from a few days to two weeks.
Attached are some questions we asked of our farrier and four clinic veterinarians who devote their professional time almost exclusively to equines. They all answered `yes' to the first two questions and suggested sheared heels, quarter cracks, and laminitis as other abnormalities of the forefeet of Tennessee Walking Horses shod with conventional pads. They all answered `yes' to the fourth question, giving their reason that they could not adequately examine the feet unless the sole was exposed.
Sincerely,
R.S. Sharman, DVM
Assistant Professor
1. Do you associate, from your observation, increased incidence of thrush with pads covering the sole of horses hooves?
2. Contracted Heels?
3. Other abnormalities?
4. Would you consider it necessary to remove pads and shoes from a horse to do an adequate foot examination? Why?" (end quote)
Sorry about the mix-up!
amwrider,
What have I seen? Honey, I am heavily involved in the gaited horse community here in AZ. I used to be on the show committee for the Carousel Charity Horse Show, which is dominated by the ASB industry out here (honestly, it's because they're the only ones who have money--the rest of us just don't). If you scroll up to my previous posts for this topic, you will see what I have witnessed. I've toured barns out here and talked with ASB owners. I've watched them at shows and see the horses in the barns. I've ridden ASBs as well. Don't put me in the catagory of just having seen a couple of videos. I do not talk about things I don't know anything about.
Concerning 6 oz chains:
This is a direct quote from the Auburn Study:
"Thus, it was concluded that the use of 2, 4 and 6 oz. chains for a duration of 2to 3 weeks did not produce any harmful effects to the horses’ legs, with exception to some loss of hair from 6 oz. chains in the pastern areas."
Now let's think about this. The 6 oz chains are causing hair loss. So what happens if they are used beyond the 3 weeks that were done on this study? If the hair is being lost, then what gets rubbed and lost next? Oh right, that would be SKIN. And then blood vessels will be broken, bruising will be caused...well, the list goes on and on. You don't have to have a study or be a vet to predict what will happen next.
So, amwrider, 6 oz chains do cause damage. They just didn't use them long enough to see what it does, and you can't tell me that 3 weeks of training in 6 oz chains is all it takes to get a horse ready for the show ring. (And another bit of evidence that this data was manipulated by the sore horse community.)
Trojan Mouse said...
"Susan,
It is childish to discuss Hitler and apply the applications of the Holocaust to the horse show ring. There is a *big* difference in genocide and a dispute about what is show ring abuse and what isn't.
I have no problem with free speech, but please use some discretion when using analogies that can be offensive to some races, religions, or personal origins."
It's a shame that the point I was making went so far over your's and Golightly's heads that you deduce that I was making racial slurs. I find your post particularly ironic considering in one of your earlier posts you called a most highly respected professional in the Saddlebred industry a "dickhead" (quoting you only - not my word).
Golightly asked in an earlier post that I "admit there is bad saddle seat". I'm sorry to say I can't do that - the discipline of saddle seat is only that - a discipline. Now if you asked me to admit there is bad riding of saddle seat - then yes, I will admit there are some examples to be seen of bad riding of all disciplines, of which saddle seat is only one.
I personally cannot stand to watch some dressage riders - I think some of them flop and slump in the saddle literally...BUT, if they get what they want from their horse and their horse looks good and performs well, then it matters not what the rider looks like. Thus it can be the same with saddle seat, poor posture does not necessarily equal a poor performance from a horse. If you are truly a partner with a horse, posture means nothing.
Susan,
>It's a shame that the point I was making went so far over your's and Golightly's heads that you deduce that I was making racial slurs. I find your post particularly ironic considering in one of your earlier posts you called a most highly respected professional in the Saddlebred industry a "dickhead" (quoting you only - not my word).
I got your point. And I did not accuse you of making racial slurs, I said people of some races might be offended.
And as far as I know being called a dickhead doesn't constitute an accusation of genocide. Dickhead is a non-denomonational appellation.
Jean
Okay, back to the lordosis.
Why is this being bred forward?
I went to a few sites and pulled up some stallion ads on horses I think have a good chance of passing on *soft backs*. Some are BYB but some are very well bred with show records.
http://www.dreamhorse.com/show_horse.php?form_horse_id=1270581&share_this=Y
http://www.dreamhorse.com/show_horse.php?form_horse_id=1209008&share_this=Y
http://www.dreamhorse.com/show_horse.php?form_horse_id=1147842&share_this=Y (this one has chains on all four feet, WTF is up with that?
http://www.horseshowcentral.com/sas_details/glf_in_his_image/2554/1
http://www.horseshowcentral.com/sas_details/harlem_globemaster/2356/1
http://www.horseshowcentral.com/sas_details/rifles_and_roses/1675/1
If bred to the wrong mare these horses could certainly produce a lordosis baby.
Jean
Susan,
>I personally cannot stand to watch some dressage riders - I think some of them flop and slump in the saddle literally...BUT, if they get what they want from their horse and their horse looks good and performs well, then it matters not what the rider looks like
I disagree. If you can't get what you need out of the horse by riding properly then get off the fricking horse. The flopping and bobbing by any pro trainer *in* the showring is unacceptable. If they want to flop and bob at home then more power to them, but in the show ring they must abide by the rules of equitation. And by equitation I mean the actual art of riding, not the class where people look like stiff puppets and the horses look miserable.
Jean
chelsea05,
"And I still don't see what Andrea means by upside down frame. For one thing, we don't want swaybacks."
An upsidedown frame is when the horse's head is pulled back over his whithers and his croup is excessively high and his back is deep and swayed, like we see in most ASB show horses. The neck is overdeveloped on the bottom and swan-shaped on the top with no muscle tone on the top of the neck. See the following photos:
This is an upsidedown frame.
So is this. Good lord, the horse's head is practically resting on his chest.
Swayback. And this horse isn't all that old, so she's probably been in a brace.
And the best for last:
Click here for the Ranger Study. Scroll down to the picture of Lucy. This is why you don't put your weanlings and yearlings in body braces.
THIS is a gorgeous ASB. Great lines, not bug-eyed, just well put together.
There is no reason why a Saddlebred can't look like this.
Does anyone notice how none of the ASB people on here paid attention to my post about tongues being tied? Huh. I guess people don't like when their claim of using a gadget will mean the horse will NEVER do that again, and then a horse that got the gadget used on him DID do it again.
Overall, TJM, it seems that you've gotten what you get all the time when you post truthful information that puts the talked-about breed in the spotlight. People who will continue to defend their methods and say nothing's wrong with them without considering outside evidence. Of course a drug dealer is going to tell you that marijuana has no after-effects--he wants to sell you the drug, doesn't he?
I'm sorry for the ASBs who continue to be manipulated. And really, that goes for all extremes in show horses, no matter what the breed. I wish so many people would get their heads out of their asses and start showing based on true horsemanship and not gadgets and gimmicks.
Done posting on this one as I actually have work to do at work now and can't play on the computer all day like I was doing! And I'm not going to continue to give out facts to people who manipulate those facts to their liking. THANKS for the great info, TJM. Can't wait for the next topic!
The day that I see hair loss or injury on my horses from use of chains is the day I will stop using them.
It hasn't happened in the 20 years I have been doing this.
The flaw that I have found in the study is that it does not indicate how long the chains were kept on the study horses. I assume it is 24/7 if it is attempting to mimic TWH training, but unfortunately that aspect of the study is an unanswered one so I have to go by my 20 years experience on this.
My ASBs and Morgans do not wear the chains 24/7. They wear them for the 20 or 30 minutes they are being worked at the trot.
I do not believe that the study was paid for by TWH "sore horse" supporters at all. There is a lot of damaging information for sore horse supporters regarding the chemical alteration of the TWH horses in the study and in one instance the study author let personal emotion get included regarding the "unplesantness" of chemically soring the horses and having to listen to them moaning and not wanting to stand on their sored feet ad legs.
AMWrider wrote:
>The day that I see hair loss or injury on my horses from use of chains is the day I will stop using them
That's kind of a silly statement. You can't see a lot of damage until it is too late. Damage to blood vessels, damage to phalangeal levers, all of it is hidden until the horse comes up lame.
I quit wearing high heels years ago because they bothered my back and arches. Yet if you looked at my back, legs and feet there didn't appear to be anything wrong. I still hurt like the dickens every morning though, so I removed the problem and got better.
I do have to commend the trot.org moderator: attafox
He's pointed out that the ginger test does exist, that bashing another breed to justify your own actions is wrong and that a lot of you are guilty of the same things you accuse me of.
He seems to be more interested in the horse and the public perception than those of you that are in full denial mode. This is what is going to change things, not the "I've never seen it" crap.
Jean
I don't think anyone here has agreed with putting bitting rigs on weanlings and working them this way.
I do think that perhaps Dr. Deb Bennett should get with Dr.s Gallagher and Bailey at the University of KY who have been studying lordosis and have come to different conclusions.
I think I mentioned something about this way back in the early stages of the blog that lordosis is genetic and that the mechanisms of it's inheiritance is not fully understood.
I have a horse in my barn, my Gussie, that was sired by a VERY low backed horse. Much, much lower than Lucy. He was never broke as there was no way to put a saddle on his back.
Why they bred that stud to anything I will never know.
My horse is fine, he has beautiful back. The stud threw horses with exceptional athletic ability and great minds - except for my guy whose ditzy brain came from his maternal grandsire...but he also got that line's exceptional beauty though. Tall, leggy, and a bright flaxen chestnut with lots of chrome.
I have turned down two offers on him from dressage riders, one of which was a Prix St. George rider/trainer.
Gussie was shown in weanling and yearling classes, started out as a saddle seat horse but is currently jumping 3'6". He wants to be an eventer but I think 15 is too old to take up this discipline.
For the record, I have been dreaming of the day when ASHA puts out a press release stating "Tail Sets to be banned" or at least "Tail sets and cutting to be banned in pleasure class". I am so tired of trying to explain it away. The industry gets bashed for this at every turn and in is an un-necessary old "tradition". It makes me nuts. There are owners in my trainer's barn that refuse to do it, regardless of what ribbons they get. They are "money people" and we need more like them. What a waste, to have people avoiding a wonderful, versatile and personable breed for the tail issue. Our organization has so much to work
I will never have a gingered horse either, not necessary and just plan nasty. I have been involved sine age 7, and I have never "been down" with that practice either.
The only thing you won't like is that I don't see mcuh harm with the stretchers or "bungies". They are not anything more than a warm-up device if used properly, sort of like you see similiar things used at a gym. No, not on very young horse, but on well developed
it might look strange to those outside of the breed, but I have neve seen and grown horse hurt by them.
One last thing, my "harpstring" comment was meant to give people the visualization of handling the reins (especially the curb) in a delicate way, not that harpstrings are very strong and you should hand on them. For me, I balance (not pull) off of the snaffle and very carefully "play" on the curb.
So that is my story, God Bless during this Holiday Season, and to each, enjoy their own!
Thanks to Vlayne
Where to begin?
Sure been alot of horseshit thrown around.
Let's start with GoLightly's first bit of sarcasim. "So 'natural', so 'beautiful'."
Beauty is found in the eye of the beholder. As for natural? The only thing you will find on a horse's back in nature is a predator. We ride horses and there is absolutely nothing "natural" about any of it. Get over yourselves.
It appears any training devise used by an ASB professional or nonprofessional is inherently abusive. Why? Because it looks like it is. When the correct usage is explained the response is to compare it to something it isn’t then stand firmly. Better yet, take some words, give them just a little twist and come out with an entirely different meaning.
Any training equipment used for any other discipline is not abusive. Why? Because YOU use them. YOU would never abuse a horse, but those Saddlebred people….Those Saddlebred people are as mean and as heartless as they come.
Pay any attention to the reasoning behind what they are saying? Look at it with an open mind? Absolutely not! “Enablers!” they cried.
Seems all shoeing practices for ASB’s are abusive too. If you won’t accept the letter offered from the Farriers’ Association, send an e-mail to them and get the same response back yourself.
Anyone seen Harley the TWH? That’s the way “SS” people want their horses to go. Mmmm, no, that’s the way the Big Lick folks want their horses to go. ASB’s don’t do a running walk. It use to be an option for one of the five gaits a century ago, but not anymore. And before anyone goes off on this little piece of information, it was decades before the Big Lick came into being.
Those Saddlebred people set tails. Not only do they set them, they break ’em. Here’s the proof, someone once saw the x-ray of a broken tail. Okaaaaay? So first we break ‘em then we spend extra money to x-ray ‘em. What …. to make sure we broke ‘em real gooood? Get real. You folks need to talk to someone who cuts tails. They can probably even show you the procedure. Won’t set foot in an ASB barn? Not a problem, go with them when they cut the tails of Morgans, TWH’s, Arabians, Friesians and QH’s.
Where the set tail bends over is called the break. It is only called that, IT IS NOT ACTUALLY BROKEN. It is no more broken than the pole of a horse is a long thing they use to touch the Grinch with. When someone refers to the tail break, they are referring to the bend.
There’s proof that chains hurt ASB’s says a non-ASB person. This is a study that was done 20 or 30 years ago. It says it right in there. Now wait one second, says one of the ASB people. This study was conducted on sored TWH. A non-ASB person says, then what did you bring it up for? Let’s go back to the first sentence of this paragraph. (There’s proof that chains hurt ASB’s … SAYS A NON-ASB PERSON.) The ASB person DIDN’T bring it up. They were responding to it. Non-ASB person, why are you referring to a study that was done so long ago? Let’s go back again, (There’s proof that chains hurt ASB’s ….SAYS A NON-ASB PERSON.) On and on….
The study was done on TWH not ASB’s. Chains are used differently on ASB’s than on TWH’s. It’s been explained. But but but, you say, they could possibly sore. Well so can a girth.
The only saddle horse regulated by the USDA is the TN WALKING HORSE. End of story.
Look at those long shanks used on the curbs! Abusers! Nazis!
So did every single one of you flunk out of high school geometry? The longer the shank, the more pressure needs to be applied for the same results as a shorter shank. In order to move 1” from vertical at 1” from the axis a 2” shank needs to be pulled ½” in the opposite direction. With a 4” shank it takes 1”. The average shank length for ASB’s is 7”. A short shanked dressage curb is far more severe alot faster than any 10" curb. What was the nasty name someone called Tom Bass? Might want to take that back.
Oh look at that sway backed horse. See how its head is behind its withers. Here’s your proof! Right here, look at this picture. …Yeah, so what’s your point? Let’s go back to that little thing called geometry. What you are trying to describe can best be seen in the picture of the pinto. Did you happen to look at the ground? The picture is shot on an angle. For you dropouts out there that is when something isn't perfectly horizontal or vertical. True the horizontal and voila! No more head over withers. What an idiot.
Look at the other sway back. Again, what’s you point? Yep that’s the way we have always bred them, alot like a Standardbred. Wanna know why or are you too busy trying to come up with something else stupid to say?
Apparently dressage riders come out of the womb already knowing it all and only the best are seen at shows. Someone way back was knocking our young and novice riders. How dare they enter academy and novice classes before they are equitation champions? Well avert your eyes, novice and youth riders will ALWAYS have a place with Saddlebreds, like it or not.
Sensationalism, misinformation, ignorance and a Fugly wannabe.
What a mess.
Andrea said...
>An upsidedown frame is when the horse's head is pulled back over his whithers and his croup is excessively high and his back is deep and swayed, like we see in most ASB show horses. The neck is overdeveloped on the bottom and swan-shaped on the top with no muscle tone on the top of the neck. See the following photos:
So you are basically saying that a horse who carries it's head up is upside down. Wow. You obviously seem to think that Saddle seat is taking a Hunt seat horse and riding it in different tack. So your own comments have shown. I don't care how much experience you've had with the discipline. You are basically saying we should make our horses, who naturally carry their heads this way, keep their heads down and forward moving long like a hunter.
>This is an upsidedown frame.
So you're saying a horse that is well set up and under himself behind pushing of his hind end is upside down. Sure, whatever.
>So is this. Good lord, the horse's head is practically resting on his chest.
How can his head be in his chest when his nose is stuck out?
>Swayback. And this horse isn't all that old, so she's probably been in a brace.
First of all, you cannot judge simply by looking at a picture if her back was "softened." It is possible she has some degree Lordosis, maybe genetically inherited. Secondly, the tail set would not have caused that as it would have been fairly loose and would have put no pressure in the back. A biting rig would set the head up and create pressure in the back, but they are only left on for a maximum of 1 hour at a time and used sparingly to educate the horse on wearing a bit properly. The horse would have been supervised at al times while in the rig (not a brace).
>And the best for last:
>Click here for the Ranger Study. Scroll down to the picture of Lucy. This is why you don't put your weanlings and yearlings in body braces.
No body has condoned the use of biting rigs (not a body brace, get your terms correct if you know so much) on yearlings and weanlings. We have only tried to explain it's usefulness and been chewed out for trying to educate you further than OMG that looks so aweful.
>THIS is a gorgeous ASB. Great lines, not bug-eyed, just well put together.
With a shorter, slightly forward set neck, average sized back and is an unstarted 4 year old. Again, you want us riding Hunter or Dressage rather than Saddleseat.
>There is no reason why a Saddlebred can't look like this.
Of course there isn't. Many of them do. Those horses are in different disciplines or teach unexperienced riders how to ride.
>Does anyone notice how none of the ASB people on here paid attention to my post about tongues being tied? Huh. I guess people don't like when their claim of using a gadget will mean the horse will NEVER do that again, and then a horse that got the gadget used on him DID do it again.
I never said they would never do it again and I don't believe anyone else did either. That is an assumption you made. We said that it is a training device used to prevent sucking the tongue back and a deterrent to getting the tongue over the bit. It may not stop the behavior for good, but it will help to get through a workout and end on a good note with much praise for behaving correctly. I know my trainers always praise horses for doing well and tell us, the customers, to do the same. Reward good behavior and punish/correct the bad. A horse behaves badly and then tries to leave the arena on his own. The rider then turns the horse away and waits until the horse does one full circuit of the ring with no mistakes doing something the horse enjoys, such as a canter or trot, before praising the horse's good behavior at the end and going to the stall. Horses understand cause and effect just as well as we do. Certain bad behavior results in undesired effects. Good behavior results in praise and loving attention. Tongue over the bit=bad behavior. Effect-tongue tie=undesired by the horse. Result-horse learns that the behavior of putting the tongue over the bit gets their tongue tied with they don't really enjoy, so they don't do it as often. Get it?
>Overall, TJM, it seems that you've gotten what you get all the time when you post truthful information that puts the talked-about breed in the spotlight. People who will continue to defend their methods and say nothing's wrong with them without considering outside evidence.
Forgot to respond to this one...
>Overall, TJM, it seems that you've gotten what you get all the time when you post truthful information that puts the talked-about breed in the spotlight. People who will continue to defend their methods and say nothing's wrong with them without considering outside evidence.
We have pointed out several times that some of the information that has been said is either false or misunderstood. We have never said that we felt all the practices in the Saddleseat industry were right and we do look at outside evidence. You are the ones not paying attention to what has been put right in front of your noses. We have explained things multiple times only to be told we are wrong and that because it isn't seen in other disciplines it must be wrong and abusive. I though we were talking about Saddleseat here? That includes Arabians and Morgans. This is not just about the ASB. ASB's are trained in other disciplines and they do well. You are basically criticizing the Saddleseat discipline for having a different way of setting a horse up in the bridle, sitting in the saddle (which just because we sit up straight instead of leaning slightly forward does not put us on the horse's kidneys), and for having different training methods that, for the discipline do work *gasp* and the horses are still happy. OMG hell has frozen over. The horses are not being abused and they enjoy their work. There must be something wrong with them in the head. Give me a break guys. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it's abusive or wrong.
And Sidesaddle rider, thank you. That was a very good summary of how things have been going here.
OOPS!
Sorry folks--screwed up on the picture of the horse with the swayback. That's not the one I wanted to use. But it still looks to me like that horse has been living in a body brace. Oops, sorry, BITTING RIG.
I love this:
"
First of all, you cannot judge simply by looking at a picture if her back was "softened.""
Um, yeah, we can. When the back is low like that in the middle, and the horse is that young, it is "softened." But like I said, that's not the photo I wanted to use. And now I can't find the photo I did want to use. Dammit.
"It is possible she has some degree Lordosis, maybe genetically inherited."
If this horse has Lordosis, which is a genetic defect, then why do continue to breed for it? This mare is obviously being touted as a show horse. So now she'll be bought by someone and will go on to be in the show ring with a potentially serious medical condition. GREAT. I saw a medical document online that confirmed that Lordosis is common in Saddlebreds and can be caused by bitting rigs. Unfortunately I only got a quick summary of it--I would have to pay to read the whole report. And of course, I Can't find the link again. I lost all my bookmarked links for information like this because I switched computers and forgot to transfer my pst file.
"Secondly, the tail set would not have caused that as it would have been fairly loose and would have put no pressure in the back."
I didn't say tailset, I said body brace. OOPS, BITTING RIG.
"A biting rig would set the head up and create pressure in the back, but they are only left on for a maximum of 1 hour at a time and used sparingly to educate the horse on wearing a bit properly. The horse would have been supervised at al times while in the rig (not a brace)."
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! The horses I've seen in their bitting rigs in stables I've been to haven't been supervised--they're just left in their stalls for hours at a time.
Oh well. As usual, defend, defend, defend our mechanicals "training" methods. It's useless to even try to understand why they always have a lame excuse for everything.
Here is my thought, and this is for ALL mechanical means of training horses, not just ASBs. I see so many people defend this piece or that piece of equipment: tiedowns, overcheck bridles, etc. They say well, when used properly it will work. Yes, I agree. But you know what? MOST people don't use the mechanical devices properly. This is evidenced by the excessive amount of horses with swaybacks, overdeveloped muscles under their necks, weak toplines, sore noses, hard mouths, etc. So why not set an example? Why not show that a horse can be trained by using your body correctly, using nothing but a simple bit (snaffle or otherwise) to teach a horse flexion and stretching, or no bit at all and use a bitless bridle or a true hackamore (NOT a mechanical hackamore), WHY NOT LEARN CORRECT EXERCISES TO TRAIN A HORSE RATHER THAN RELY ON GADGETS? The answer is simple: poeple want instant results.
Oh well. Go ahead, ASB people, fire away at my comments here. I'm done posting and reading these posts. Didn't I say that one post back? I just came on to let folks know I had put up the wrong picture of the swayback horse and saw the comments. Have fun, ASB folks!
Okay, then let me rephrase. A knowledgable horse trainer will not leave a horse young or old in a biting rig for longer than an hour and will never allow them to be left unsupervised. Of course there are going to be bottomfeeders out there who will do things wrong and ignore what they were taught thinking to cut corners. They know it's wrong, we know it's wrong, but the only way to stop it is to do something and you can only complain so many times before you get ignored. We have all said that any training device is effective in the hands of someone who truely knows how to use it, but in the wrong hands it becomes a pain inducer.
Lordosis isn't the same thing as a back that has been softened. Softening the back is a problem that occured during the growing process while the bones were still soft and underdeveloped. Lordosis is a genetic disorder where a horses is born with a low back. This does not harm the horse becasue this is simply the form of the horse. There is no interference in the layout of the organs or in the body processes. Softening will do these things and I believe everyone of us has agreed that using certain things on underdeveloped horses isn't right. I don't think anyone here is defending that practice.
We don't rely on gadgets. We try things without and use gadgets when they are needed to help the horse along. Don't put words in our mouths.
Lordosis CANNOT be caused by work or equipment. A lordotic horse has deformed vetebra - the horse is born with "triangular" vertebra and the spine does not develop properly. It is usually seen by the horses' two year old year - BEFORE any work begins.
A horse with a SOFT back (not actual lordosis) may have a WEAK back, causing it to sag slightly, or the withers are very "sharklike" causing the ILLUSION of a soft back. I had a horse like this once (shark withers) and in certain poses, she looked low backed. In others, she looked perfectly flat backed.
This mare had a HORRIBLE habit of dropping her back down when standing. I did a lot of exercises with her to help strengthen her topline, especially since Saddle Seat is not conducive to a strong topline. But MAN you should see the abs on our horses!!! :)
Research is being conducted on lordosis right now, sponsored by the ASHA, including the search for a genetic marker. We want to eradicate this condition from the breed.
But until that is done, breeders have to be responsible. Judges have to take it into account (conformation only counts for 25% of the score in most classes) and people with lordotic horses must put them in appropriate divisions. Really - if you end up with one, through no fault of your own - it's better to give it a useful life as a show or lesson horse than send it to slaughter or a breeding farm!
Do NOT mistake true lordosis for something caused by work. It is just not the case.
Yes, soft backs CAN be caused by work, but they can also be caused by other things (carrying a foal, old age, lack of conditioning, poor posture in the case of my former mare, etc). Do not assume a soft back was caused by Saddle Seat. My new horse, who has been doing SS his entire life (he is going on 11) has the straightest back you'll ever see.
But regardless, no type of "low" back is attractive.
I see so many of the up and coming trainers concentrating on strengthening the WHOLE horse now. Not as much typical "in frame" work. They are paying attention to things that were once ignored - all for the benefit of the horse. Many of our clinicians are advocating dressage-type work for the top show horses. It is VERY good for them and makes them a much more well-rounded athlete.
ANDREA said
>I saw a medical document online that confirmed that Lordosis is common in Saddlebreds and can be caused by bitting rigs. Unfortunately I only got a quick summary of it--I would have to pay to read the whole report. And of course, I Can't find the link again.<
It is the Gallagher/Bailey study I referenced above and it is in the Journal of Equine Veterinary Science February 2003.
The article was also summarized in the February 2004 issue of Equus magazine.
The findings were that they have yet to find the exact genetic inheiritance pattern or the exact genes involved. Dr. Bailey is at the forefront of the Equine Genome Project so he is on the cutting edge fo this. It is thought that the genes are recessive but that they are somehow "clustered" with genes for other traits that we are breeding for, but no one has been able to identify it yet which is why we see it crop up with more frequency.
I don't believe their findings mentioned bitting rig use or riding at an early age as being the cause. They indicate it is a genetic deformity in the growth of the vertebra where the one side of the vertebra grows and the other side doesn't which causes a wedge shape to the bone.
Also addig that the same study found that uness there is impingement of the spinal processes (which can happen in some of the worse cases)the horses are not harmed by riding, carrying foals etc.
*Note that the study did not advocate breeding low backed horses, but this was simply a finding*
The study did say that there could be discomfort if the saddle wasn't fitted properly and that the low back could cause gait abnormalities.
I think this is common sense as a poorly fitted saddle would cause pressure points and a low back will not allow the horse to engage his hind end properly.
Saddleseat rider,
>Look at those long shanks used on the curbs! Abusers! Nazis!
So did every single one of you flunk out of high school geometry? The longer the shank, the more pressure needs to be applied for the same results as a shorter shank. In order to move 1” from vertical at 1” from the axis a 2” shank needs to be pulled ½” in the opposite direction. With a 4” shank it takes 1”. The average shank length for ASB’s is 7”. A short shanked dressage curb is far more severe alot faster than any 10" curb. What was the nasty name someone called Tom Bass? Might want to take that back.
Ok, this is where you guys just come off fuckinig stupid. The longer the shank the *more* leverage, which means *less* pressure is needed to do more damage. This is basic physics and anyone with half a brain should know it. The shorter the shank, less leverage.
You are completely and absolutely wrong. Read Dr. Deb Bennett's articles on bitting. Read Luis Ortega. Read Bits and Bitting by William Langdon.
So apply ten punds of pressure to a short shank bit does less damage then 5 pounds of pressure on a long shanked bit.
Jean
Chelsea wrote:
>We have pointed out several times that some of the information that has been said is either false or misunderstood.
But you haven't proven anything is wrong. Every argument about bits/shank length/fulcrum/severity you guys have come off on the losing end of.
You can't argue biomechanics because you don't understand them. If you did, you wouldn't use chains.
You can deny all you want the things that people have stated they've seen first hand, but you cannot *prove* they haven't seen them, and in most cases they prove they have, just by finding wewb references.
The ASB show group has behaved, both here and on the trot forum, far worse than the people who love the breed and want the show ring cleaned up. That's where you really fail. We *all* like the horse. we don't have a problem with SS, but the rest of us want the abuse stopped, and you argue that it's not abuse.
You haven't changed a damn thing except the knowledge that the denial in the ASB industry is more rampant than I thought. You've got people over here arguing your case that are actually making it worse because they show they have no knowledge about things that any horseman should know.
So tell me *one* thing on my blog that you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt is 100% inaccurate and has *never* happened in the history of the ASB show industry.
Prove it, either with photos, video or sworn testimony, which I can then rebut with photos, videos and sworn testimony, and I'll certainly apologize and remove the offensive section.
Jean
Vlayne,
>Yes, soft backs CAN be caused by work, but they can also be caused by other things (carrying a foal, old age, lack of conditioning, poor posture in the case of my former mare, etc). Do not assume a soft back was caused by Saddle Seat. My new horse, who has been doing SS his entire life (he is going on 11) has the straightest back you'll ever see.
I'm disturbed that in browsing through farm websites I'm seeing the soft backs on yearlngs, weanlings and horses that are in their prime. I can understand an older broodmare or show horse that gets a little soft, but not a baby.
And while true lordosis is not cause of a lot of the soft backs, you can tell by looking at the parent's conformations that the trait is being bred forward. The same thing has happened in the Arabian halter industry where the flat croup became the down hill racer croup.
Horses that exhibit these soft backs need to be removed from the breeding pool or only bred to a horse with a perfect back.
Jean
asb today said...
>Well here's where I MUST agree. It should also be pennalized, pleasure or not, it should be a detriment.<
Agreed, as does a lot of the industry which is why the ASHA is helping to fund the lordosis study so we can map the gene and identify it. The concern is that the low back gene seems to be attached to some other traits we are breeding for in certain individuals. It was a great topic of discussion at the 2003 United Professoial Horseman's Association convention.
I would like to see something actually DONE about it.
I agree. A curb bit is a simple lever. The longer the lever, the less force is required to do the same amount of work.
What this does mean, though, is that if the same amount of rein tension is applied to a 5" shank versus a 3" shank, the action is stronger.
A longer shanked bit is not for the heavy handed! But, in my experience, SS riders tend to ride with a lighter touch than a Dressage rider (I've given lessons to dressage riders and upon mounting and asking the horse to go forward, he won't move. Too much mouth contact). We also do not apply constant pressure to the bit - there is MUCH release involved in riding SS properly. But I digress...
Also - that is why a SS horse goes with a MUCH shorter curb chain than a dressage or western horse. It limits how far back the curb can be pulled in the mouth, therefore putting a limit on how much pressure can be exerted on the mouth and poll.
Not speaking for the examples of poor riders you'll find out there - I'm speaking for how it is SUPPOSED to be done.
vlayne,
Thank you for "getting" it.
A shorter curb strap is in most cases less severe since it does limit the movement of the bit on the sides of the lip and the poll.
And I agree that a lot of modern dressage riders are too heavy handed, even with snaffles.
BUT I do see a lot of abuse of the curb rein in saddleseat. We all know how it is supposed to be done, but it rarely is done that way.
You know what I'd really like to see?
I'd like to see an ASB trainer take the time and effort to create a bridleless exhibition. To see an ASB in fully glory, ridden with a line around its neck would be AWESOME. I've seen pasos, rockys and even an Icelandic ridden this way and it does make an impression.
Tracy M
I have seen many a horseman drop the reins in the rack and the horse keeps on. It's exciting. Next time you are close enough to see one work, ask if he can "drop" the reins on him.
I have seen Tom Moore stand straight up in a jog cart and tip his hat to the crowd during a victory pass at Lexington.
And I am not sure but I would almost bet that Melissa Moore could demonstrate this for you with something she has. That's the tounge tying trainer in the previous posts.
Sorry! Fine Harness Cart.
Let's see, the horse that you labeled as "scuttling" is actually doing a gait called the rack. Saddlebreds are quite famous for their four-beat man-made gait called the rack. I thought that someone that knew so much about saddlebreds such as yourself would be able to recognize that.
saddleseat rider wrote:
>The longer the shank the more you need to pull back on the reins to achieve the same effect as pulling back not as far with a short shank.
You are incorrect. This is why torque wrenchs have long handles. It is a proven fact you can lever something far easier, with far more pressure, with a longer handle than you can with a shorter handle. You have it exactly backwards.
Quote:
The principle of leverage can be derived using Newton's laws of motion, and modern statics. It is important to note that the amount of work done is given by force times distance. For instance, to use a lever to lift a certain unit of weight with a force of half a unit, the distance from the fulcrum to the spot where force is applied must be twice the distance between the weight and the fulcrum.
For example, to cut in half the force required to lift a weight resting 1 meter from the fulcrum, we would need to apply force 2 meters from the other side of the fulcrum. The amount of work done is always the same and independent of the dimensions of the lever (in an ideal lever). The lever only allows to trade force for distance.
(end quote)
Or better yet, read the entire article here and maybe you'll finally understand that longer shanks mean less pressure used to create greater leverage:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leverage
I'm married to an engineer. He works on industrial buildings that are multi story heights, and depths, I'd sure he'd be amazed
to know that all of his years of college education were wasted because you're new theory disproves Newton's Law.
Now why don't you trot over to the www.equinestudies.org forum and explain to Dr. Deb Bennett how short shanked bits are less severe than long shanked bits. I'm sure she needs the laugh.
If you truly believe this mythology you're spouting then there is something wrong with the education of not only horse children but people in general.
Your "theory" would invalidate Langrangian Mechanics, something that the engineering community has abided by for over 200 years.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagrangian_mechanics
So it's obvious that your parents are the ones out the tuition fees. not Jean's.
Tracy M
ASb,
>And I am not sure but I would almost bet that Melissa Moore could demonstrate this for you with something she has. That's the tounge tying trainer in the previous posts.
Then if she can do it, why does she use the gimmicks?
Seems to me if all these people can do these things without the extreme pressure then they would cease to use the gadgets that create pressure.
Kind of like taking a 44 Magnum squirrel hunting. Sure we know you can kill the squirrel, but you could do it just as easily with a sling shot, so why waste the bullet?
Tracy M
I think where the confusion lies in terms of shank length and severity is that you often see a shorter shanked bit pulled back MUCH further than a longer shanked bit.
I would hazard a guess that the pressure on the mouth, lips, bars, poll, tongue and palate is somewhat equal in those two scenarios...
Short shanked bit cranked to horizontal, or longer shanked bit pulled to a 35 degree angle.
Yes - if the shorter shanked bit were pulled to the same 35 degree angle, it would be MUCH less severe. However, it would also have far less leverage and not be able to accomplish the desired result.
Therefore, in the minds of most SS people, the longer shanked bits are NOT as severe when compared to a short shanked bit pulled back much further.
Either way... as long as the horse is responding properly, is not fighting the bit or what is being asked, and is trained to react in the correct way via humane introduction to the bits and responsive riding, IMHO there is no problem with it. Use a 3' shank for all I care - just use it in a way that doesn't terrify or hurt the horse.
TM;
Thank you (I think) for your words. I will correct you, tho. Even though my avatar is male, I am a female. My avatar is a photo of my fiancee who passed away in May.
Re: bridleless. I ride a Saddlebred bridleless and sidesaddle. She's not quite ready for public demonstrations, yet. Rode my first one when I was a teen and saw the Foxfield Drill Team ride bridleless and bareback and thought "I can do that."
Liz Martin, former Saddlebred trainer, now amateur, used to do public demonstrations bridleless on the West Coast with a beautiful black ASB. Liz is now better known as Elizabeth Shatner.
I will try here, as over on trot, to be a voice of moderation. The perception from the blog you posted is that these things are *always* done. You have asked posters to prove that they are *never* done, and most of the posters here are stating that many of the practices you are pointing out (such as bitting of weanlings) may be done (as you have offered proof), but that they are not de rigeur. Just as the "enablers" have accepted that these are sometimes done by bottom feeders, can you not in turn accept that these are not commonplace?
In your latest blog, you commend an Arabian breeder for stating that their horse has a defect and that they are doing something about it. Correspondingly, why not commend the ASHA for underwriting the study to isolate the genetic defect that is causing lordosis so that we can work to eliminate it? Instead, people are stating that the breed is breeding for it, which is incorrect. While it may happen, I am not aware of any breeder who breeds *for* this. It is NOT a conformational "plus" and leads to a horse that has funky gaits.
Language in the USEF rules has changed regarding lordosis/low backs (it wasn't even called out previously, and now it is to be severely penalized). This is progress. Why not recognize that?
Because it seems to be a cluster of genes, it has been harder to isolate, but they are closer than ever - and they present their findings at every ASHA convention. It is rare to see a trainer put a low backed horse into a class where they are stripped for conformation anymore, and the ensuing arguments that go on over on trot (know those well) should be gratifying to you.
The arguments regarding set tails that go on over there are interesting as well, and really do much to disprove "trot enablers."
And, I just perused the August 2008 ASHA magazine. I didn't see one curb bit that was anything other than straight up/down (aka no real pressure). I realize that this isn't representative and that I'm sure you can find examples where the curb is parallel to the ground, but *in general*, there is far less "angle to the dangle" on a bit and bradoon than on a dressage double, IMO.
"What nees to start happening is what I gather is the point of this blog as a whole (please correct me if I'm wrong, TJM): for people to stop relying on mechanics, manipulation, chemicals, whatever, to force their horses into a certain frame or certain movements and start learning how to ride and spending years of quality training with the horse. For judges to stop rewarding extremes and start rewarding normalcy and what is actually written in the rulebooks. For people to start taking time with the 2 yos and 3 yos and actulaly train them rather than forcing them into the show ring at such young ages."
Yeah... What Andrea said!!!! :D
(My best friend's name is also Andrea. Yay!)
(She is an AHN-drea.)
"We lie the loudest when we lie to ourselves." - Eric Hoffer
To Horses.
Generous, honest creatures.
Was that in response to a specific post? Or are you just trying to stir the pot (some more)?
Attafox,
>Thank you (I think) for your words. I will correct you, tho. Even though my avatar is male, I am a female. My avatar is a photo of my fiancee who passed away in May.
So sorry. You have my deepest condolences. What a nice memorial to use his photo.
>I will try here, as over on trot, to be a voice of moderation. The perception from the blog you posted is that these things are *always* done.
Actually, that's not the intent, although people fly off on that idea and never really read what I say. My position is that when these things are done, it is *always* abuse. So if you're not doing these things, then you aren't doing the abuse. That's why the "well my horses aren't treated that way" isn't a legitimate defense. I ran barrels for years. Had the quietest, nicest barrel horse you'd ever want. *MY* barrel horse was fine. But that doens't mean there aren't 1000 nutbag barrel horses out there having their asses beat around a pattern every week.
So this means:
Tail sets= bad
Ginger= bad
Harsh bits= bad
Poor riding=bad
etc.
It's not that the everyone in the industry does these things, because of course we know they don't, there are plenty of ASB riders that don't even show and ride in plain tack. It's that everyone that does do these things is a jerk. So if only two people in the industry are doing these things, then I'm going to bitch about those two abusers.
>You have asked posters to prove that they are *never* done, and most of the posters here are stating that many of the practices you are pointing out (such as bitting of weanlings) may be done (as you have offered proof), but that they are not de rigeur.
I never said they were de riguer. I said that when it is done it is bad, and how could any idiot think it was okay.
>Just as the "enablers" have accepted that these are sometimes done by bottom feeders, can you not in turn accept that these are not commonplace?
I never said it was common place. Go read the blog and find a sentence where I say "Everyone in the industry does this"
>Correspondingly, why not commend the ASHA for underwriting the study to isolate the genetic defect that is causing lordosis so that we can work to eliminate it? Instead, people are stating that the breed is breeding for it, which is incorrect.
No, people are stating that to breed, knowing that the condition is being exhibited is wrong. There is a difference between breeding *with* it, and breeding *for* it.
Some people breed with HYPP positive horses and pray they don't get a positive foal (stupid, but it's done). And some people breed for HYPP because they want the muscling it produces. There is a difference.
>Language in the USEF rules has changed regarding lordosis/low backs (it wasn't even called out previously, and now it is to be severely penalized). This is progress. Why not recognize that?
Now that I know about it I certainly will. I deal mainly with tack, drugs and abuse, but if USEF is working to fix this then kudos to them. Now if they'd only take a standing on gingering.
>The arguments regarding set tails that go on over there are interesting as well, and really do much to disprove "trot enablers."
>And, I just perused the August 2008 ASHA magazine. I didn't see one curb bit that was anything other than straight up/down (aka no real pressure). I realize that this isn't representative and that I'm sure you can find examples where the curb is parallel to the ground, but *in general*, there is far less "angle to the dangle" on a bit and bradoon than on a dressage double, IMO.
The shank is a lot longer, and some of the bridoons are really horrid looking. USEF needs to have their butts kicked for allowing some of those twisted ones.
The shank being straight down doesn't mean there isn't any pressure, especially is that the pressure is localized in the tongue, bars and chin.
My sister, Tuffy, does this really good bit clinic where she takes a curb bit and has a clinic participant put their forearm between the bit and the curb chain. Then she takes a fishing scale and attaches it to the reins and starts to pull on the scales. People are always amazed at how few pounds of pressure produce serious discomfort on their arm. Even with the bit almost straight up and down with three pounds of pressure you can get distinct chain marks in someone's arm.
Thanks for posting,
Jean
Cattypex,
>For people to start taking time with the 2 yos and 3 yos and actulaly train them rather than forcing them into the show ring at such young ages."
I agree completely. I think all two year old under saddle classes should be banned.
I also think more time needs to be spent socializing show horses before they ever reach the show ring!
Showing itself isn't abuse, (except the big lick shit, that stuff is *always* abusive), but the things people do to get to the showring can leave a lot to be desired.
Jean
I've been reading this for a while, and let me say this up front. I live in NC, and I am at a lot of the ASB shows in Raleigh, and I have never, ever saw what you saw. EVER.
I don't turn a blind eye--I've never seen it, anywhere in any of the shows I've been to in NC or WV.
The area of NC I live, I can count at least 7 ASB barns close by. Have I been to all of them? No. Have I been to 5 of them? Yes. Out of the 5 I have been to, 4 of those are dark barns--but you know why? Because they are OLD barns! These are barns that are built completely from wood, the stalls are completely wooden,the lofts are wooden, the whole dang thing is wooden, no fancy skylights, etc. It makes for a DARK barn. The 1 out of the 4 that is not dark, is a metal barn that was built in the last 10-20 yrs with the newer type stalls, with the wood only half way up and the metals bars the rest of the way, and the tops completely open, is it dark? NOPE. (And this will really blow your socks off....)IT WAS BUILT FOR (wait for it...) AMERICAN SADDLEBRED HORSES!!! Most people don't buy land and build a barn, most people will by a farm and take it as is, and put their horse of choice in it. Would those same barns be dark if it held nothing but trail horses,or apps or QH's? YEP. (shakes head) But let me guess your argument is the barns you've seen these poor old ASB's in, THEY were built by these trainers from scratch and THEY made them each and everyone dark on purpose? And you saw the blue prints to prove it...whatever. (rolls eyes)
And the feet! Oh those poor, pitiful feet! Those poor ASB's no wonder they don't live very long life's, they are lame by the time they are 10--(they would have to be) and they have to be put down so young---(rolls eyes again) Yeah that's why WGC CH Caramac lived until he was 30. And everyone on here knows why a lot of ASB's get bought by the Amish, don't we? Its because the Amish people love to make horses that have weak, injured legs into their daily driving horses--I mean who wants reliable transportation, anyway?
Sorry, that I'm so sarcastic--but some of the "myths" you have wrote about here are just plain silly. So what you found a couple of dirt bags that have posted videos on you tube to back up some claims--but we all also know that youtube is a place to find a whole lot of stupid people doing stupid things--just ask FUGLY.
And guess what--I don't even own a Saddlebred. I just love horses. But Saddlebreds are beautiful, smart and funny. When I make my horse purchase, I'm going to go find me one of these poor pitiful, crazy, lame ex-show horses. (Grins really BIG)
38spechul
( yeah, we know why you use that spelling)
>Out of the 5 I have been to, 4 of those are dark barns--but you know why? Because they are OLD barns! These are barns that are built completely from wood, the stalls are completely wooden,the lofts are wooden, the whole dang thing is wooden, no fancy skylights, etc. It makes for a DARK barn.
And if the people gave a shit about their horses they would *remodel* their barn and make it safe for their horses.
That's a big duh! It doesn't take a whole lot of brain power to remodle a barn. The Willow Bend Polo club was based in old turkey barns. Guess what, with some effort and planning they had some pretty nie barns.
>Yeah that's why WGC CH Caramac lived until he was 30. And everyone on here knows why a lot of ASB's get bought by the Amish, don't we? Its because the Amish people love to make horses that have weak, injured legs into their daily driving horses--I mean who wants reliable transportation, anyway?
I'm not sure what Amish you're dealing with ut the Amish here buy Standardbreds, not saddlebreds. In fact most gaited or brightly colored horses are shunned by the Amish around here because the are "vanity" horses and not conservative enough for use.
Citing one horse that survives to an old age and remains sound isn't indicative of an entire industry.
The vets here make a fortune treatinig lameness isses on the saddlers and walkers, so they can certainly dispute you're "I've never seen" statement.
Jean
Kristin,
>Saddlebreds are quite famous for their four-beat man-made gait called the rack.
Now this is odd. Because what I've read about the rack states that it is a *natural* gait that is enhanced with training. If a horse doesn't rack naturally no amount of training on earth is going to create it.
In reviewing farm website videos looks like some people have youngsters out there that can do a pretty good rack, even as babies, with no pads/chains/stretchies on them. So how exactly can the gait be man-made if these horses are doiong it naturally?
You'd think someone that purports to be as knowledgable about ASBs as you would know that.
Jean
I know you have heard about Saddlebred rescue....they have been mentioned a lot. Ask THEM where most of their older horses come from. (Ask them how many Amish saddlebreds they have gotten that are 20+ yr old, and have been used for years as daily drivers.) Spotted horses and grays--you don't see Amish people with, but Saddlebreds they love.
Hey! A trainer friend of mine has a few older retired saddlebreds in the fields, pasture pets now, and they are all pushing 30. ( FYI I just used CH Caramac as a reference, he was also a top Saddlebred in his time--a true show horse)
No a remodel is a lovely thing when one has the money...but of course you know that having horses is expensive, heck to buy these farms alone would cost you millions. I also never said the older barns weren't safe--they just aren't bright--just as houses that have wood floors and paneling--wood is dark. But they also don't close the horse up completely, they ALL are able to stick their heads out over their doors.
Heck the place I work has no windows--I spend most my life sitting at a desk in a office that has NO windows, I'm not crazy because of it, nor do my eyes look crazy and wild when I get to go outside... And I don't see my company (that has much more money than an average horse owner/trainer) remodeling the entire place for me to get some sun...
TM,
It is not the "norm" to find a naturally gaited Saddlebred, most Saddlebreds are trained to rack.
ahhh... all us Saddlebred lovers would love to be gifted with one that came by it naturally---oh to dream....
Nope, I liked the quote, plunked it down on 'table. Call it when you see it, is all I meant.
No blinders allowed, figuratively speaking, Only. Andalusians of Grandeur, the blind groom that posted through me really affected me. Some people don't see it, and they never will, perhaps. I think most on this section do. That's a good, great thing.
Horses never lie. They do need to stretch their necks down once in a while, it can cramp their backs, IMO.
Och, ne'er Mind.
I love a good sound saddlebred.
They dance. The great riders "flow" with them.
To many, many more like 'em, and less of t'bads.
They are a driving force of nature.
Literally, etc.
I have one question, is it preferred to have the hind end over-reaching? Is engagement desired, or required? I saw some videos where the hind end seemed to step straight down, instead of forward and down. And I saw some videos where I thought WOW, look at that horse step under himself? More beautiful, to my eye. The horse's back was allowed to round up a bit.
Just asking.
I've learned a lot from these posts.
Thank you, TJM, and all posters.
overnout
38 Spechul,
>It is not the "norm" to find a naturally gaited Saddlebred, most Saddlebreds are trained to rack.
So let me get this straight: One of the biggest gripes about the ASB show industry is the artificial frames horses are forced into, and the abusive training practices that occur to do this. We've heard denial of this from ASB people, but now you pop up and tell us that ASBs aren't naturally inclined to do the show gaits, it's not just refinement it's full scale training to do an artificial gait.
People bitched about the guy using harsh training on his weanling to make it gait, but now you tell us that the gaits have to be trained on because they aren't natural.
And you wonder why people don't like the show industry?
I truthfully have to say I thought the five gaited horses had the gaits naturally and just needed to be refined through careful training. Most of the ASB babies I've seen romping and playing look like they rack better than the adults under saddle.
But I'm willing to bow to your statement that it isn't natural, and requires a lot of training and gimmicks to produce it, which makes me dislike the indsutry even more.
Jean
Jean,
>My sister, Tuffy, does this really good bit clinic where she takes a curb bit and has a clinic participant put their forearm between the bit and the curb chain. Then she takes a fishing scale and attaches it to the reins and starts to pull on the scales. People are always amazed at how few pounds of pressure produce serious discomfort on their arm. Even with the bit almost straight up and down with three pounds of pressure you can get distinct chain marks in someone's arm.
Hey goober, you stole my post! I was going to mention the fishing scale test! Remember the spotted racking horse guy! Boy did he get a shock when he finally figured out how much damage he was doing to his horse's mouth. 15 pounds of pressure on each rein, just at a walk! People were shocked when they found out their normal tension on the reins was so extreme.
I think every rider needs to test themselves this way, to remind themselves that someone's tongue and gums are under that pressure.
Tracy M
38Special,
>It is not the "norm" to find a naturally gaited Saddlebred, most Saddlebreds are trained to rack.
I don't think this is an accurate statement. A saddlebred that is pointed toward five gaited classes has the natural ability to rack and slow gait. If the horse doesn't have the natural ability he remains in three gaited classes.
You don't "train" a rack, you enhance and refine what is already there. If it isn't already there nothing you do will bring it out and what you end up with is a disconnected and choppy high stepping movement.
Cassandra
Cassandra,
>You don't "train" a rack, you enhance and refine what is already there. If it isn't already there nothing you do will bring it out and what you end up with is a disconnected and choppy high stepping movement.
Thank you for speaking up, because I was about to have to add to the blog post and add to my disgust with the industry.
Jean
Okay, I'll try this on for size and see what happens.
Saddlebreds may or may not be born with a genetic predisposition to gait. Some individuals are born "naturally gaited," but instead of the 4 beat footfall, that usually means they pace (I have one of those).
The truly naturally gaited horses ironically make very poor 5-gaited show horses, typically. Why? Because they have to be taught to trot. Yep, you have to train them to trot (that's *part* of the reason my coming 4 year old has yet to be hooked, much less have leather slapped on her, and, before you ask, nope, her tail is not cut).
Once trained to trot, if they are then allowed to "go back" and gait, they usually like it so much that they end up with a not so great trot. It will be pacey, hitchy, a bit off (to your eye they might look lame or skipping or even stiff in the stifle - when really they are mixing gaits).
So, then the industry goes and shoots itself in the foot again by calling the gait "man made." It isn't. Trained, enhanced, but if you have a Saddlebred who isn't genetically predisposed to doing that, it ain't going to happen. Heck, before I got him, my gelding had some farrier (hubby to a BNT) who short shod my horse in an attempt to get him to rack. All it did was piss him (the horse off) and give him corns.
Now, how do they get them to do this gait? First, the horse needs to be secure at the walk and trot under saddle. IMO, should be secure at the canter as well, but there are those who will argue that point. Beyond that, the *general* idea is to start from the walk and get the horse slightly off balance to see if he will take a few shuffling or ambling steps. This is accomplished in a variety of ways. Some will use a hill to go down. Others will put an aluminium shoe on the rear (a little slick and lighter than the front). Others will have the horse go barefoot behind (the idea being differential weight between front and rear for those of you who want to argue physics).
Add that the horse's head will be LIGHTLY shaken from side to side (aiding in the imbalance).
The horse is rewarded for taking just a few steps at this ambling gait - and many of the You Tube videos that I've seen look like youngsters starting out because their heads WILL be inverted until they learn to balance at the new gait (it's the idea of gross motor movement before being fine tuned). At this point, because the bottom portion of the horse is out of balance (by design), compensatory physical things are going to go on with the upper half of the body.
Now, most trainers will try this for a few times over the span of a couple of weeks. If the horse shows no predisposition towards ambling, they go back to training as a 3 gaited horse. They might try it when the horse gets a bit older, or a different trainer may try it, but MOST trainers won't force it on the horse.
My wonderful old horse was a top 3 gaited horse at one point. He came from gaited lines, but as far as I knew, had never been gaited. Before I got him, he had foundered severely, but we rehabbed him to the point of mild riding. We were out one day and he slipped into the most comfortable amble - going downhill while he was a bit off balance. Don't know if someone had actually "gaited" him at some point or if he just finally reverted to his breeding, but it sure was fun.
As to double bridles and pressure. I wasn't allowed to handle a double bridle in a horse's mouth until I could manuever it using tissue paper reins with the double mounted on a chair, so doubt that I'm wielding that much pressure with the hands I developed when I was a child.
But, I do have to laugh - because before the time that I brought up that the shanks were virtually straight, the arguments were how the shanks were being yanked back. Now it's morphed into a "you don't know how much pressure you're putting onto it even when they are straight."
Anyway, yeah, have at me if you wish, you'll find I have a pretty thick skin (guess it's why I'm a mod "over there"). When the love of your life passes away, not much else can phase you :)
The horses shown in 5 Gaited classes must have SOME natural tendency to do lateral gaits or they simply cannot do them. No amount of forcing can create a true, slick rack or nice stepping slow gait.
These gaits are part of the Saddlebred's genetic makeup, but because so many different breeds went into making the Saddlebred, there are some lines that cannot rack, and some that cannot trot without a lot of interference from the rider. Since that interference is not desirable in the ring, a horse who cannot rack is not shown 5 gaited, and one who cannot trot usually ends up showing on the racking horse circuit, or being used for breeding to a line that does not rack.
Attafox,
>So, then the industry goes and shoots itself in the foot again by calling the gait "man made." It isn't. Trained, enhanced, but if you have a Saddlebred who isn't genetically predisposed to doing that, it ain't going to happen
Okay, that makes sense and is what I thought all along.
>But, I do have to laugh - because before the time that I brought up that the shanks were virtually straight, the arguments were how the shanks were being yanked back. Now it's morphed into a "you don't know how much pressure you're putting onto it even when they are straight."
I made a generalized statement about how much pressure can be applied, even if the shanks are straight. However, I have seen trainers riding with shanks that are pulled way back while in the warm-up pen. I'd guess they tighten the curb prior to going in the ring, since it will produce more elevation.
And I have seen youth exhibitors being "racked away" with that have the shanks pulled back as hard as they can and there is no stopping the horse.
Jean
Ok, since I don't really come on here often, Cassandra, attafox, and vlayne graciously took care of any loop holes my statement may have caused before I could get to it. Thanks guys.
TM said:
>>I'd guess they tighten the curb prior to going in the ring, since it will produce more elevation.
<<
Actually, unless you have a truly skilled rider, the classic way of using a Weymouth sees the snaffle or bradoon used to elevate and the curb to "tuck" the nose in. Only those who are truly skilled at riding the curb can do both with one bit. I was fortunate enough to ride with a "curb man" who was a virtuoso at fine tuning a horse's performance off of the bit.
And, since many do use the double only as a show bridle and just prior to the show, the warm up might feature an exaggeration of any bit or gait (a little more speed to take the edge off of a hunter - even lunging before hand), a little more bit to warm up. I've seen curb chains adjusted both tighter and looser depending on the horse and the day, but tightening it would most likely end up in a chin to chest rather than an elevated head.
And if an ASB doesn't like the bits, "spitting the bits" isn't pretty.
>>And I have seen youth exhibitors being "racked away" with that have the shanks pulled back as hard as they can and there is no stopping the horse.<<
As MickeyD appropriately observed earlier - trainers in saddle seat are guilty of overmounting juveniles, just like trainers in other disciplines are guilty of overmounting. That's not specific to saddle seat, the bit, or the breed.
And, back to applauding the USEF for taking a stance. Earlier someone stated that the breed rules are essentially passed through from the breed organization. That is true. So, the fact that lordosis is now being penalized in the show ring may be in the USEF rules, but it started with the BREED association.
>>>I will try here, as over on trot, to be a voice of moderation. The perception from the blog you posted is that these things are *always* done.
Actually, that's not the intent, although people fly off on that idea and never really read what I say. <<
That last line really makes me laugh - as it is exactly what some of the posters are truly thinking.
And, onto lordosis, one more time. Okay, so we don't breed for it - you get that. So, you say, why breed with it? I'm going to answer that in general, as I am not a breeder (I've bred my mare once - she's not lordotic, nor is her daughter).
The lordosis studies are showing that it is not a pure case of recessive or dominant gene. IOW, you can breed two straight backed ASBs that have straight backed parents and somewhere in the gene pool mix, it comes through and you have a low-backed youngster. On the flip side, you can breed low-backed critters and get table tops - that breed on with more table tops, so figuring out the familial lines that are producing this is difficult.
The study that was commissioned actually asked for those with lordotic horses to submit DNA upon death to the ASHA for submission to the study. It is ongoing, but basically, it is still a bit of a crap shoot. However, it IS being addressed.
And, having seen plenty of older swaybacked broodmares in other breeds, unless one sees photos from earlier days, you can't always know if the broodmare you are looking at in a photo is being bred with lordosis or not.
Like I said ... Have at it. Leverage is a propensity issue. Someone's married to an engineer, I was raised by one. Yes I talked to him about it. Yes we are still talking about bits that move freely, not a lug nut that won't come loose. The theory needs to be applied in the correct manner.
My 3-gait horse could slow gait. He could not hold it together to build speed for a rack. Sounds like it would be morally wrong to develop the muscles, coordination and willingness required for him to pick up speed and move into a rack.
Horses don't "naturally" walk on a lead. Sounds like teaching them to do so is abuse. After all you use a devise (lead rope). And I can tell you it is only saddleseat people who would put a chain over the nose or give a yank on the lead.
GoLightly,
I you've spewed so much drivle I looked at your profile. You state some of your favorite movies are "Champions", "The Man From Snowy River" and "Phar Lap". This says alot about you. To those who don't know these movies I will sumerize for you. Champions is about a jockey who fights cancer and the horse he rode. What is his mount? A steeplechaser. I dare any of you to watch this movie, the race scenes in particular, without wincing. Snowy River's most awe inspiring scene comes when a herd of horses is driven over a cliff. No wait from a different angle it's not a shear drop off, it's a slope of about 160 degrees. To quote GoLightly - Yeah, the horses loook sooo comfy:( - Again, try not to wince. Phar Lap is about a race horse from New Zealand or Australia, can't remember which right now, whom it was widely speculated to have been poisoned. This gives a clear idea of the person we're dealing with. Shoots her mouth off about how cruel saddleseat in any form is, but finds entertainment in seeing cruelty depicted on film.
Whatever
TM
You've stated you would remove any post that is inaccurate. Please go to the Saddlebred Rescue site. There you will find hundreds of horses that have been taken in and rehomed WHO WERE ON THE ROAD AS AMISH CART HORSES. Why haven't you SEEN a Saddlebred, but only Standardbreds? Beats me. No doubt because you don't know a Saddlebred from a hole in the ground unless it's a show horse.
I'm sure you will come back saying that SBR's work is all a lie. They buy horses from New Holland to use for their torture chamber. That they pulled the wool over the eyes of those they received awards from for their work in saving horses from a horrific death in a Mexican slaughterhouse. Oh, excuse me, I said Mexican. How about a South of the Border Slaughter House. That sounds more PC, more like somewhere you would take the kids.
You have crossed the line. You are now insinuating an honest, hardworking and respectable organization is full of liars because you've never seen a Saddlebred on the road. Although, I'm sure you have, you just didn't know what you were looking at. Well I haven't seen all the cruelty discussed on this blog, so I would have to say they don't exist.
Please to anyone who is here from SBR. GET OFF THIS SITE. Your time and energies will do more good with the Treasures than they ever will here. There will never be any understanding, there will never be any compromise. We teach gaited horses to rack, they teach Warmbloods to piaffe. That makes us cruel and them not. Just stop argueing with them. They will never concede anything other than what we do is wrong. No amount of reason will penatrate these thick skulls.
One last thing. The daughter of one of SBR's founders has been named Junior Rider of the Year by USEF. Guess that makes USEF an "enabler" too.
Trojan Mouse
I just want to know who you worked for or watched or trained with that makes you so knowable about the breed. You've seen caulking boots used in ways I have never seen. If we had usda check are horses did anyone get wrote up? Have you ever seen a unhappy horse go with its ears up all the time?
julia
On a different note, since the Arabian breeder was commended for noting that his horse was a carrier, please note that a test for this was available to ASB breeders earlier this year. I happen to know an ASB breeder who gelded her stallion after he had passed EI (now JEB) on to his 2nd foal.
A larger discussion of this is on the "enabler" forum :)
http://www.trot.org/forum/showthread.php?t=629
"Shoots her mouth off about how cruel saddleseat in any form is, but finds entertainment in seeing cruelty depicted on film.
Whatever"
(shakes head)
You know, I have thought about taking down that first post. It just enrages you people all over again. So sad, too bad.
English comprehension skills are sorely lacking, I guess.
I love the movie "RiverDance" too. Ever ridden to the music?
Keep reading the comments.
To those I've learned something from, again. Thank you. To those who chose to hear only negatives, try to slow down, and read what was said. And comprehend it.
Please.
Here it is again. I don't know, maybe some of you only read every other word, or something.
"I love a good sound saddlebred.
They dance. The great riders "flow" with them.
To many, many more like 'em, and less of t'bads.
They are a driving force of nature.
Literally, etc."
and
"I've learned a lot from these posts.
Thank you, TJM, and all posters."
Good luck, and Merry Christmas.
Especially to vlayne, asb today, CassyW and attafox.
Yeah, I think I will take the first comment down. Blood pressure is a dangerous thing, at this time of year. Don't want to cause anybody an aneurysm, or anything.
Have a Happy New Year, All!
On a different note, GoLightly said:
"Blood pressure is a dangerous thing"
too true :(
(and yes, I know I took it out of context, but then again, lots of things have been taken out of context, so why not join the party?)
Sorry, on the testing post, I wasn't clear. The Arab is carrying a different disease than the test that the ASHA identified and made available to ASB breeders (for EI now known as JEB). The similarity was that there are breeders that are doing something about a genetic defect AND there is a breed organization enabling them to do so as well.
Sorry for any confusion my hastily typed post might have presented.
" amwrider said...
CATTYPEX
"Dear Lifelong Saddleseat People,
You know, I've ridden at several NICE h/j /eventing / dressage barns, and NEVER ONCE saw a horse's tongue tied down!!!!"
Because they use flash cavesons, crank nosebands, figure 8 cavesons, etc. to keep the mouth closed. That is why you don't see a tongue tie in those disciplines."
True that... doesn't mean I LIKE those, either.
It's just so PECULIAR, the tongue-tying thing.
----
aaaannnddd.... since I started typing this hours ago....
About the Amish.... TJM, sorry on this one... I was at dog agility class one night, and heard some INSANE fast hoofbeats coming up the country highway. We all looked, and it was a young Amish dude driving a FANCY Saddlebred, Mane, tail and legs flying up & down. I asked some Amish friends (teenage girls) about him later and got much eye-rolling. Apparently he is a young dandy, some teen in Rumspringa who REALLY loves himself. Kind of the equivalent of a Corvette or even better, some riced-out car.
The horses Andrea posted as good examples are pretty. It's SO TRUE: There are certain conformation constants that transcend any breed (or should).
Hey, it will be interesting, won't it, to see what the current economic crapola will do to various "fancy" breeds and their marketing.
I foresee a lot of mid-range horsepeople concentrating more on family fun-type activities, and maybe a lot less high-end showing across the board??
I figured as much, what with the crash in prices & all.
The GOOD thing is that maybe there will be a little less showring "silliness" across the board.
The BAD thing is .... well, there are a lot of bad things.
Yeah, it's scary.
: (
NOT COOL.
But that's another topic.
Oh, attafox.
I am sorry.
(smacks self upside the head)
There, that'lprobably make everyone else feel better, too.
To You.
To ASB Horses.
GoLightly - really, don't smack yourself. Hurts.
BUT, it does explain why I have a "meh" attitude if someone comes after me for a viewpoint. They're just words.
And trust me, Mike, aka Bubba (he was from NC), not only loved me, he LOVED Saddlebreds. Had to explain to him that the horse traveling with its nose to the ground wasn't sick - that's the way it was trained. He loffed his giraffe necked "kids." Stood beside me at colic surgery - but get HIM to a vet (aka doctor?), no way - but that's another blog!
Sorry to get off topic, but didn't want GoLightly to torture herself with a bitting rig or something ... :)
Ms Mouse and Your also well informed Mini Me, your sister.
I wish to thank you for the experience. I have learnd very much here. After riding Rugged Lark, giving a clinic with George Morris, and spending alot of time with Billy Harris, having Bill Shoemaker as a client and then being partners with Jim Babcock on a Chicalena colt,I thought I new a little about other discplines. I take my hat off to you both.. you know more than any sucessfull horseman I have ever met about every discipline. I am so impressed. I would appreciate it if you could send me your physical address as there are some papers I wish to have delivered to you.
In case you have forgotten..I am the one you have publicly called a "Racist piece of shit". Thanks for everything.
LF Lavery
Ms Mouse and Your also well informed Mini Me, your sister.
I wish to thank you for the experience. I have learnd very much here. After riding Rugged Lark, giving a clinic with George Morris, and spending alot of time with Billy Harris, having Bill Shoemaker as a client and then being partners with Jim Babcock on a Chicalena colt,I thought I new a little about other discplines. I take my hat off to you both.. you know more than any sucessfull horseman I have ever met about every discipline. I am so impressed. I would appreciate it if you could send me your physical address as there are some papers I wish to have delivered to you.
In case you have forgotten..I am the one you have publicly called a "Racist piece of shit". Thanks for everything.
LF Lavery
Mr. Lavery,
Oh gee, threats from you. Good think I screen capped your website with the racist comments regarding how funny it was to allow you horses to bite your "mexicans"
Tell you what, when you get ready to send me those papers you need to check carefully and be sure that all your workers have their proper paperwork in order too. This means for the past several years, not just 2008.
And by the way Mr. Lavery, this is America, where I can express an opinion on something. I don't live in fear that some farm owner will fire me, not pay me back wages and knows that I'm too afraid to go to the authorities become I'm here illegally.
And if you're so experienced then why don't you know that recommending a harsher bit for a training issue is the last ditch effort of someone that doesn't know what the hell they are doing?
I read all the "advice" columns on your page and can only conclude that you really don't like horses, because you always recommend doing something that *isn't* good for the horse.
Jean
Okay, back to the "all, always, never" that has been prevalent here (and for which I will apologize in ASSuming ;) that the "you" used in the original blog meant "everyone) ... Since you've read all of Mr. Lavery's advice, I went to his site (I don't go there often) and decided to start with November. The very first piece of advice was regarding a rider whose horse basically bolts in the show ring at the canter. Here was the advice (and I'm using absolute cut/paste here):
>>
Thank you so much for your question. I can't begin to tell you how many times this same question has come up. It seems that there is a "fast cantering" epidemic out there. You are very astute to have discovered that using your "seat" can be one of the aids to slow a horse down. Perhaps, the most sparkling example of this is watching a good reining horse and his rider make speed transitions. At speed, the "W's" on the riders Wranglers are pressed to the cantle and his Bottom is closer than a clean shave to the saddle. His only movement in the saddle is in complete rhythm and harmony with the horse's canter. Without touching the reins, to slow the horse down he simply quits riding with the horse. By that I mean they are no longer in concert and his movement in the saddle is, in fact, counter to the horse's canter. You may have never noticed this very subtle cue so next time you have an opportunity to watch a reiner, you will now be able to pick it up easily.
In my opinion, 99% of the horses that "run off" at the canter were never asked to canter correctly. Yes, I mean they were never taught to take the canter correctly and yes I mean the first step of a lead and the mindset of the horse at that time, can determine what speed the horse will be going.
Although I always preach, "the rail is your friend" in the case of the canter this advice can really work against you. You will note many horses "leap" to the rail for the first step of the canter and it is all downhill from that point. They depend on the rail and the rider is no longer in charge. This behavior usually comes from horses who have been taught to canter by rushing them to the rail to canter. When dealing with a horse anything rushed will never have a good outcome.
If you want a horse to canter slower (relaxed) he must be relaxed when the lead is asked for. For a horse to canter slowly, he must be fairly loose (relaxed) in his bridle. If you ever have watched good race horses I am sure you noted that the harder the Jockeys pull on the reins, the faster the horses go. In fact, they only start to slow down when turned virtually loose after the finish line. Attempting to slow the speedy canter down by pulling on the reins and allowing the horse to have something to lean on will only reinforce this behavior.
Bypassing the basics and simply treating the symptom is what many riders often do. They are not that interested in why the horse is going so fast, only in slowing him down. Rider "A" has had great success cantering in a small confined area such as a Bull Ring. However, Rider "B" is sold on the great outdoors and has had equal success running in the open pasture field. Oddly, these are two popular methods and they can produce the desired effect. Other methods such as cantering in the cart, ponying, cantering in lines, etc., can all be of use but again they do not address the cause of the problem.
Students of the canter were in awe of Mitch Clark and the thrilling Skywatch. After making exciting seemingly "out of control" racking passes, Mitch would merely stop, usually in the middle of the ring and have this great athlete step quietly off on a canter that at times was near a lope. As excited as he was for the other gaits, he was as relaxed as could be at the canter.
To me, that is the key. The horse should have the confidence in the rider to depend on him for guidance and have the education to execute what is asked of him. The slight shifting of the rider's "cheeks" in the saddle the pressure of the calf and the relationship between the direct and indirect reins should all be nearly impreceiveable when cueing the horse to canter. To start the canter in this fashion requires three distinct steps:
Position, determining where and in what direction the canter will commence.
Preparation Which includes the shifting of weight in the saddle and the slight tightening of the direct rein.
Execution- The actual act of using you legs to put the forward impulsion in place.
When all things above are put into play, the horse will step quietly off on the correct lead, relaxed and with his head nearly straight in the bridle. as oppossed to bent over his shoulder. This, of course, is simply basic equitation which is actually not supposed to be described as the art of looking nice on a horse but by definition the art of riding the horse.
I am enclosing some homework for you that will go into further detail about what we have just discussed. These procedures will work if the rider will work at them. They are not overnight miracles but then horses do not learn this behavior overnight either.
I don't want to win the Derby
Country Pleasure Mare That Leaps into Her Canter
As far as the last part of your question, I am not sure what an overweight and out of shape old man could tell you about exercise that would have any credibility! It has, however, always been my experience that lunge line lessons (bareback or saddled) can be instrumental in building a proper, independent seat necessary to become a completely effective horseback rider.
I hope I have been of some help to you. Ms. Lampe, besides being a wonderful horsewoman, is a very tough task master, I know from experience. I hate to think what she may have to say about this. Thanks again for your question. I wish you Good Luck and Good Riding.
LF Lavery
<<
Could someone please educate me as to what in this is not good advice? And, could not be given no matter what seat? Because I'm honestly baffled ... and I don't see Mr. Lavery recommending something that isn't good for the horse.
Attafox,
Let me start by asking you to edit your post to not have such a large chuck of Mr. Lavery's writing here. He does have the copyright on everything on his site.
That being said:
QUOTE:
If you ever have watched good race horses I am sure you noted that the harder the Jockeys pull on the reins, the faster the horses go. In fact, they only start to slow down when turned virtually loose after the finish line. Attempting to slow the speedy canter down by pulling on the reins and allowing the horse to have something to lean on will only reinforce this behavior.
UNQUOTE
This is complete and utter bullshit and another one of those myths that people that know nothng about horse perpetrate. You don't throw a racehorse the races at the end of the race. I've ridden enough OTTB's to know their guidence systems. What slows them down is light flexing back and forth, the jockey standing up, not pushing foreward, and their weight moving back on the horse. Have you ever retrained an OTTB? MY guess is that Mr. Lavery hasn't because if he gave the horse rein and expected it to stop he'd find himself in the next county.
So basically his advice is: To stop a headstrong horse that pulls on the bridle, drop all pressure and give him his head.
Yeah, I want to see all the youth riders on runaway horses using that one.
Jean
AttaFox:
My head is much better, thanks for your kind nature.
I have learned much from this thread, as I said. I had to admit, upon reading TJM's bolded post from her sister, that these "get rid of it all" statements are patently absurd, and do no favours to good trainers. I shudder to think of PeTA, taking all animals away from us. I've used "bitting rigs". I would use them again. Never of course, for hours at a time:) They are a common tool, used kindly, they are a great tool. Used badly, they are cruel. This is true of nearly every type of training method out there. I say nearly. I learned about tack nosebands, at one stable. Tacks on the rails, to sharpen a horses form over fences. Some tools seem inherently cruel to me. But, in the wrong hands, a snaffle bit can be a torture device. A poorly seated rider can cause great discomfort to their horse. I hate it when the horse is blamed, for the failings of his rider.
I agree with your summation of Mr. Lavery's advice. I hope TJM will continue to out the TRUE shame in the show ring, without resorting to such outbursts of profanity and anger directed at the wrong people.
I come from the horse showing (H/J) world. There is good and bad in all disciplines, repeat ALL disciplines.
I am troubled that TJM wants to continue such conflict. I have been troubled by the entire horse industry for a very long time, you see. I came here to learn. The calm coherent posters here helped me with that. I had been outraged by some of the videos posted, especially of TWH's. I admit, freely, now, having watched many more videos, that I finally understand where Bill Steinkraus was coming from, when he extolled great SaddleSeat.
I have been troubled by this thread since it started. I must say, TJM, that in order for awareness to be present and changes to be made, the kind people in this sport seem to already be on it. It is the truly clueless that are not reading, and have no interest in learning, that need to be called out for their ignorance and cruelty. Not those that are working to educate.
For the record, I am in Canada.
Canada, the frozen north. There ain't a SaddleSeat rider known in this province, at least that I'm aware of. It's way too cold here:)
If that's not true, please, I would love to visit an ASB barn in Ontario. I couldn't find one. I looked.
Ignorance can breed ignorance. I appreciate, again, the posters that were interested in the educational aspect. And I must agree with Mr. Lavery's ideas on runaways. I rode many different, problem horses for many, many years. True runaways are running from something. Pain, or fear of pain, usually. I used to drop my reins. It worked, every time.
To those of you that indeed educated me, I say thank you, and Merry Christmas.
TJM, fight the good fight, and out the ones who need it. I think these people have made some very, educated valid points. Sorry, I follow this blog for the AssHats to be outed. (looks around)
Nope, none here. (Ok, maybe Susan, but she's a special case:) She still seems to think in absolutes.
Nazi, or not. Until you've witnessed the gray areas in the show ring, blinders will be kept on. I still stand by my opinion, that abuses do happen, in EVERY discipline. Let's work on eradicating them.
TO ASB Horses, may they float freely, well-trained, and well-loved.
Don't laugh, but if I ever own another horse, I may head straight for an ASB. The dressage videos I saw on trot.org brought tears to my eyes. I think warmbloods better watch out, there's a "new" breed in town:)
Ok, I'll shut up. Husband's demanding the computer, Again.
(deeep sigh of relief, heard around the net)
ASb today,
>These are the Saddlebred that will be featured this year in the 2009 Tournament of Roses Parade. One the riders were featured in this blog for her 2007 Louisville video. Hmm doesn't seem as if the rest of the country is onboard with your distain of her skill.
Being in the Rose Parade is not indicative of equestrian skill. The Fourth Memorial Cavalry B Troop has been to the Rose Parade several times. It is composed of GIs, most of whom learn to ride on rental horses from the Buffalo Corral on Fort Huachuca. I grew up with these guys, so I know their riding skills.
>Also and I can't resist besides the fact that most of these posts only have replies from a handful of people who follow this blog,
Seems like only a handful of ASB people felt the need to step up and deny all the abuse. There's been a huge wall of silence from the people that agree the abuse is rampant. So if this blogs gets several thousand visitors a day and only ten ASB people show up to dispute the statements I think that says a lot.
>Tuffy horse that is the weirdest website you have set up with that horrid attempt at a Black Beauty format.
It gets close to 25,000 hits a month from all over the world and is linked to over a 500 websites, so looks like a lot of people don't share your opinion. I've also had offers to due monthly diary entries for several horse magazines and newsletters, but since I'm doing a book on Tuffy I decided not to share him.
Tracy M
Attafox,
I agree with Trojan about how race horses are ridden. I retrained a lot of ottbs as polo ponies and h/j. You do not just hand them rein to slow them down. That's a bunch of crap from people that don't understand how race horses are ridden. I used to exercise race Tb's for Jerry Greene. If I'd given rein to his horses they would have run into next week.
Tracy M
Golightly wrote:
>I have learned much from this thread, as I said. I had to admit, upon reading TJM's bolded post from her sister, that these "get rid of it all" statements are patently absurd, and do no favours to good trainers
I'm not sure what you mean by this, would you clarify?
Thanks,
Tracy M
Mr. Lavery wrote:
>Ms Mouse and Your also well informed Mini Me, your sister.
How odd. I'm taller than my sister by several inches, and from your photo I'd surmise that I'm taller than you too. So I'm not mini anything. However, I suspect your derogatory use of the term follows along the lines of your disdainful use of the word Mexican in regards to your barn help. Do you routinely disparage short people as you do those of other races?
>After riding Rugged Lark, giving a clinic with George Morris, and spending alot of time with Billy Harris, having Bill Shoemaker as a client and then being partners with Jim Babcock on a Chicalena colt,I thought I new a little about other discplines. I take my hat off to you both.. you know more than any sucessfull horseman I have ever met about every discipline
Oh, I'm so impressed....not. Hmm, shall we have a pissing contest about mentors? I rode with George Brush (dressage and jumping), worked at Tom Chauncey's and Al Marah,(arabians), with Bill Cass (he's in the ApHC Hall of Fame and bred the horse that won the largest WP class in the history of the sport) Jerry Greene ( racing), Don Young (cutting) and also trained and handled Grey Eagle, one of the few stallions in America used to play polo. I fail to see how being a partner on a Chic Olena colt makes you special since I've got several Doc OLena bred horses, no big deal. I hope you had your colt tested for Herda. I also had a son of Hall oF Fame Champion and three time GEAR sire Colida, as well as a Padron daughter. Whew, big deal, like anyone cares.
And unlike you I know how to properly stop a race horse. And that when you have a training issue you're supposed to drop down a level in bit severity and fix the holes in the basics, not increase the severity to patch the problems you're too lazy to solve.
I would suggest that before you give any more training advice you go visit Dr. Deb Bennett's pages and learn about a horse's skeleton and how bits actually work.
Tracy M
asbtoday wrote:
>I wanna go back to where the curb chain was linked on those 10" bits... can we huh?
What about them? When the curb chain is engaged the bit creates pressure on the tongue, bars, lips, poll and chin.
When it isn't engaged the bit still creats pressure on the tongue, bars, lips, and poll.
Are you under the assumption that without a curb chain a shanked bit suddenly turns into some mild device? You're incorrect. It still exerts tremendous poll pressure and without the block of the curb chain the cannons of the bit lift into the lips much like a gag bit. Poll pressure doubles and basically the horse's head from the poll to the lips is held in a vice.
Try it sometime. Put a curb bit on the horse, remove the chain and then pull the reins up. You'll see the lifting action on the bit and the increase in pressure on the poll. Use enough pressure and you can rip the sides of the mouth quote badly, as I have sen happened when cheap leather curb chains and straps have broken during speed classes.
Tracy M.
asbtoday wrote:
>So the abuse you witnessed was with speed racking? That's not Saddlebreds dear.
Where do you come up with this stuff? I said speed classes: IE barrels, poles etc. But the class doesn't matter, it's the action of the bit that is being discussed.
>With a cash lovell curb there are 3 pieces the bar and the shanks, disengage the chain and there is NO pressure on the bar.
You seriously cannot be that obtuse. If the bit is attached to the cheekpieces and the reins are attached to the shanks and you PULL the reins will you will apply pressure to the mouthpiece/bar and cheekpieces, and crown pieces.
How on earth could you pull on a fulcrum and NOT apply pressure to the axis of the fulcrum?
If you truly believe you can pull the reins on ANY bit and not put pressure on the mouthpiece then you need to stay off of all horses.
Seriously attafox, isn't there an educational resource for ASB riders to tell them how bits work? This seems to be a constant theme amongst this group, not knowing how their own equipment works.
>Comeon... who is the publisher, eh?
A friend of mine that writes a lot of books about Legends.
Tracy M
asbtoday wrote:
>Done it.. dunno what kind of bit you were using but with the one I was using curb chain disengaged and if not for the snaffle I was outta control...I don't know what kind of pressure you are using but I could ride with an egg in my palms and never bust it.
You make no sense. You say you ride with hands that can cradle an egg, but without a snaffle the horse is out of control.
Here's the deal: On a TRAINED horse you stop the horse with your seat, and legs and then apply pressure to the reins. SO the bit shouldn't matter.
On an untrained or poorly trained ( such as a race horse) you stop more with the reins until you can get them used to stopping properly. My SS horses rode INSIDE of the bit. They didn't need constant pressure in order to create the action. They were only "picked up" during gait changes up or down.
Please go read this and take saddleseat rider with you. The webpage isn't wholly accurate but does describe how a curb works and the pressure points.
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Curb_bit
Tracy M
ASBTODAY,
>With a cash lovell curb there are 3 pieces the bar and the shanks, disengage the chain and there is NO pressure on the bar.
You cannot have a bit in a horse's mouth, with reins attached, that does not apply pressure to the mouthpiece when the reins are pulled. It simply cannot happen.
I find myself siding with the blog owner on this. There seems to be a lot of misinformation about bits and how they work amongst the modern SS crowd. I don't know why this is, but it concerns me.
As for Mr. Lavery:
I read his column posted today and he does mention lunging a yearling in a bitting rig. I find this very disturbing and cannot imagine how he thinks this is a good policy.
http://www.askthetraineronline.com/
Then he says this:
{quoted}
If all has gone well, so far, your "long" yearling should be able to lead well, from either side, although I do not approve of lunging after maturity, the colt should lunge equally well both directions {end quote}
Does not approve of lunging after maturity? Why not? Lunging an older horse is a good way to keep them fit and flexible. I've never heard of such a silly statement from someone saying they are a trainer.
And what is he doing teaching a yearling to drive with a bit in its mouth? How insane! Teach a young horse to ground drive with a halter or bitless bridle, so their first experiences do not put any pressure on their mouths.
It's reading this kind of stuff that convinces the rest of the horse world that those of us that own Saddlebreds don't have a clue! I'm starting to agree. In all my years of watching my father start colts in driving he never used a bit during their first lessons.
Cassandra
Trojan said
>In reviewing farm website videos looks like some people have youngsters out there that can do a pretty good rack, even as babies, with no pads/chains/stretchies on them. So how exactly can the gait be man-made if these horses are doiong it naturally?<
I am curious as to what websites you are referring to. Please share.
Tuffy
I also have not heard you indicate what show in NC you attended. What is the harm in telling us? If you don't know the name of the saddlebred show, then please, by all means tell me which Appaloosa show it was and then I can determine what saddlebred show you attended.
You claim that you want us to "police" our own, yet you won't help us to do so? Are you trying to be an enabler?
asbtoday wrote:
>So the abuse you witnessed was with speed racking? That's not Saddlebreds dear.
Tuffy wrote:
>Where do you come up with this stuff? I said speed classes.
I believe she is referring to the comment about the bit experiment with the fishing scales and you were talking about the very heavy handed rider on the spotted racking horse.
Cassandra, most ASB trainers don't lunge mature horses as we would longline them instead of lunge them, but I am sure you already knew that.
amwrider wrote:
>You are so impressed with yourself you sit at your keyboard and insult a woman who has been asked to showcase a breed in a national parade and was a participant in the Nagno closing ceramonies... Incredible to me.
I didn't insult anyone. I made a statement: Being in the Rose Parade is NOT indicative of riding skill. I know, I've seen some of the people they let in up close.
And being in any international competition does NOT make a person a saint. They may be good at what they do, but they aren't perfect. Look at some of the Olympic riders ( Barney Ward comes to mind) that end up getting busted later for drugs and abuse. Just because YOU admire someone doesn't mean I have to. I don't require you to admire the people I like.
>Your friend? I meant what company pray tell is so interested in your writings that you have a signed contract to publish this wonderful knowledge... to coin your sister's phrase... shit.. nevermind...
Why would you care? But just to satify your need to pry into my private life I will tell you that I've been publish in the Miniature Horse World Showcase, DeQuarter, Lippitt Morgan Review, The Paso Fino Monthly, Trail Rider magazine and many others, and that doesn't include my article "Because My Daughte Grew Up With Horses", which went viral on the internet after a bunch of jackasses stole it from my website) and has been stolen and republished in more newsletters and forums (including trot.org) than I can count.
Tracy M
AMW rider:
>I believe she is referring to the comment about the bit experiment with the fishing scales and you were talking about the very heavy handed rider on the spotted racking horse.
1) That was my sister posting that issue, even though it was my clinic.
2) That wasn't the post she was replying to, so why suddenly bring up speed racking, which hasn't even been part of this entire dialogue?
>Cassandra, most ASB trainers don't lunge mature horses as we would longline them instead of lunge them, but I am sure you already knew that.
Maybe most SS ones don't, but the H/J and dressage ones sure do. There's a darling ASB hunter mare that shows locally and she's lunged at shows to warm up. Doesn't seem to bother her a bit.
But, Mr. Lavery is once again proving the statements about people putting yearlings in Bitting Rigs. He does it, he recommends it and he's using a bit even on their first attempt at lunging and driving, which is just fricking crazy to me.
Tracy M
AMWrider wrote:
Tuffy
>I also have not heard you indicate what show in NC you attended. What is the harm in telling us? If you don't know the name of the saddlebred show, then please, by all means tell me which Appaloosa show it was and then I can determine what saddlebred show you attended.
Oh please, I had repeatedly said it was a spring show at the Hunt Center. It ran concurrent with the ApHC show. How the hell would I know the name of the ASB show, I wasn't entered in it, I was showing apps. We happened to see the ASB's there, but we had our own horses to show. You've already verified that you find an App show there at the same time as an ASB show, so what fricking more information do you need? I was busy showing my horses, not trying to ferret out every bit of information about a breed show I had no interest in.
You keep harping on the stupidest things. We've proven that weanlings and yearlings get worked in bitting rigs, and now we've got Mr Big Time ASB trainer recommending it to boot. We've proven there's a ginger test. We've proven the bits with 10 inch shanks exist. We've proven that their are 15 hand yearlings.
The ASB people have proven they have no concept of how bits, or physics, work or how the horse's actual structure works. Getting snippy with the people that have backed up their statements with facts seems pretty stupid.
The show was in NC, in the spring, at the hunt center. ASBs and Apps were showing at the same time.
There you go, that's the information I have on the ASB side of it. If you're so insistant that people don't haul their horses in bitting rigs, as several posters here have attested, then I will certainly film the next ASB rig I see being unloaded and post it on you tube for you.
Tracy M
AWMRider,
>Cassandra, most ASB trainers don't lunge mature horses as we would longline them instead of lunge them, but I am sure you already knew that.
What I know is that I lunge my Saddlebreds, and my father lunged his Saddlebreds because he wanted a horse that could balance on turns, in both directions. If you're not lunging your Saddlebreds perhaps that explains why I see so many horses winging so badly from behind, with riders on the wrong diagonal to hold them up around the curves.
I think lunging a young horse does more damage, since young bones and joints should not be subjected to continuous circling.
Cassandra
Sure, Tuffy:)
"This includes tail sets, padded hoofs, bitting rigs, breeding for genetic defects, two year old futurities, deaths from extreme jumping courses and other things that get the public worked up."
This is the part I had problems with, Tuffy. The Long Hooves & tail sets are old school ways, I do understand that. I've seen the harness critters at the Royal Winter Fair for years and years. Hackneys, Drafts, Roadsters. I have watched the Trotters at the StdBd. races, live, once in my life. You see tongue tying all the time, in these disciplines. Most people aren't aware of it. Stretchies have been around for a long time, too. Chains? Sorry, still not a huge fan. S'okay. Chain use may diminish, with increased awareness of the willingness of these noble creatures to make us happy. It may not.
But awareness is a good thing to learn.
Anyway, I honestly don't ever remember seeing SaddleSeat in any classes. But I may not have been looking very hard:)
I have googled several times, looking for Ontario ASB's. Whoops, I mean a SaddleSeat barn, I know we "use" ASB's in this country. I haven't seen any SaddleSeat Riders, except in the Arabs. Where the heck are they?
:)
I've ridden quite a few saddlebred and their types, they have a much smoother, easier to ride action that may be just the ticket for this old back, half broken.
Next, two year old futurities, deaths from extreme jumping
(did you see Call Again Cavalier's death? I have to agree, that "class" was asking for catastrophe).
These types of sports are driven by economics. It's hard to make money from a horse in a field, growing. I agree, it's wrong, for most, not all horses. When done properly, with good common sense, a two-year old youngster can benefit from easy slow learning. Not a lot, but some.
This is not the norm, among the uneducated masses, instead it's "ride 'em, the horse has a back"!
The "Extreme Eventing" Class was a disaster waiting to happen. I mourned for a week, thinking of it. Yes, 3-day Eventing is another job we have always asked the horse to do, and the great ones do it brilliantly and safely. Most of the time. Horses are a dangerous sport. People pay for "thrills & spills" I guess. I always hated the falling scenes in the Grand National Steeplechase. The movie "Champions" for me, was about overcoming adversity for both horse and rider. The horse "Aldaniti" also came back from a devastating suspensory injury, as his rider Bob Champion overcame cancer. The movie wasn't about the risk both horse and rider take. It's a given.
But, your head can get squished just as easily, riding on the flat.
Breeding for genetic defects has been human's way of making the darn critters in the first place. It's called domestication, and breeding for function. I know, we've screwed it up. The price we pay, as humans, is through the mistakes we make.
Anyway, the really absurd thing for me was Bitting Rigs. A Very common training tool. Very Bad in the wrong hands. I know, in my foolish youth I did the rig in the wrongest way. Thank goodness the horse let me know. I learned early, thanks to a horse that was kind enough to explain my error. Forgiving enough to let me make it up to him.
I've used a twisted snaffle, and a double-twisted, and they can help with a dead-mouthed horse. The horses came to me, pre-ruined. They left me softer in the bridle than they started. They went back to softer bits. You need the right hands, the right INITIAL Education of the horse and RIDER.
I can't imagine "outlawing" bitting rigs, as I've know them. A surcingle, a longing cavesson, a longe-line/whip, loose side-reins, bingo, horse learns something, before you even get on. Over-done, absolutely, it's bad.
Which is why there is so much ignorant cruelty, in the world IMO. There just isn't enough quality initial education for people to handle horses properly, and fairly, from the beginning. I don't believe some of the rankest beginners even seek out the knowledge they need to learn.
And again, IMO, there are a lot of "blame the horse, not the rider" amateurs riders out there, that close their minds to learning. Again, JMO. Just what I've seen & heard.
I hate the sneering that happens between horse-people of all the different disciplines. It is wrong. Doesn't help horses, at all. A horse is a horse, no matter his rider's chosen course.
The bio-mechanics required for the different disciplines is also important. A pulling horse isn't built to the same standard as a TB. The SaddleSeat Horses were developed for the rider's comfort and fancy-schmancey-ness. I LOL'ed reading about the Amish "Hot-Rod".
The other things you mention are yes, inherently "asking for trouble". But tails are a touchy, touchy subject, as are tongues:)
I still think it's a bit icky, to cadge a phrase from CattyPex. It's old school, I think.
The anti-Long-Footed stance makes inherent sense to me, in that depending on the conformational functionality of the horse, his long-term soundness could be questionable. A horse's foot, to me, just wasn't designed for that length, and only amplifies any weakness in the hoof & the joints above it. JMO. If the ASB can maintain his soundness into his twenties, then ok, if not, not ok.
You can't get rid of everything, all at once. Old habits die hard. (Smacks self, gently, up-side the head.) My old, OLD habit of speaking way out of my knowledge base is waning, more & more as I age. I was a loud-mouthed kid, with even less knowledge. I've asked this question elsewhere. Why is this so rampant, in horsie youngsters? I was just as guilty of this "Once you know, you know all" mentality, in my youth. I've learned, that I never stop learning.
Thanks again, attafox.
Sorry if I've rambled, I only get x amount of time at this machine.
I always appreciate broadening my horizons, even if I am an old broad.
:)
Oh, and I really didn't mean to sound stupid or insulting in my question re: the "right" amount of over-reach behind. I understand the mechanics, and some horses are built with more over-reach, than others. Is it more desirable, to have lots of over-reach behind, at all gaits? I would assume yes.
Yes?
Merry Christmas to all.
(Throws red roses and green sparkly confetti)
GoLightly, I am in Wisconsin. The "just as frozen" north, as we're at -24 right now. Anything above 0 will be downright tropical... but anyways, if you are ever in my area, please email me. I'd love to have you in for a gander at my Saddle Seat horse, and I would be happy to work him for you.
Tuffy, I love your essay "Because my Daughter Grew Up with Horses." It was forwarded to me in an email, of course without your name, so I'm very pleased to know who wrote it. Wonderful stuff. I forwarded it to my mother, hoping it would turn the lightbulb on (she is, to this day, PRAYING I would outgrow this "phase"). Unfortunately it went right over her head. Sigh.
Your appaloosas are lovely.
http://www.trinityapp.com/index.htm
Oh, you might want to update the page on your site where you state that Knollwood Farm Ltd. is using your essay - it appears they've updated their site and it is no longer anywhere to be found. It seems they took your email and threats seriously. Yaay for them.
CassandraW - daughter of unknown yet referenced BNT - please let us know to whom we are hearing such wise words and all-encompassing claims. Your father is who, pray tell? A name I'd recognize, for sure... clue us in.
As for long lining/driving/working long yearlings... I have started a few long yearlings, in December of their yearling year, if they are of sufficient size and maturity to work with. I teach them to long line and hook them to the cart only once or twice, and then turn them back outside for 6-9 months, bring them back in as late two year olds and resume training. I've found they are much easier to work when they are their larger two-year-old selves if they've already been introduced to a few things. It does them no harm; in fact, I think it's better for them. They get to grow up a bit more before they start "real" work, and it's not so traumatic for them as they already have an idea of what's going on.
As long yearlings, the work sessions are only about 15 minutes at MOST, just enough to give them an idea of something new and accept it. Since their attention span is so short, and their bodies are still maturing, there is no benefit to working them like an older horse. This is probably fairly common, especially in the northern barns like mine where Jan-March the weather is actually worse than December (usually - this winter is quite the cold exception LOL!).
Anyways, learning to wear a surcingle and crupper, learning to lunge and then accept a bit, learning to steer and stop, and learning to walk while pulling an empty lightweight racing sulky is NOT in any way detrimental to a long yearling. Short sessions, simple lessons, no weight on their back or in the cart, no demanding work, no shoes, no curbs, no rider, none of that. They also learn such basics (or work on them, if they've already been introduced) as being crosstied, getting on/off a trailer, grooming, picking up feet, etc. I fail to see how/why this is so awful. Most of them enjoy it!
I don't put them in a bitting rig at that age, because the lessons a bitting rig teaches are not what I'm trying to teach a horse at this stage. I save that for later, when actual bridling is important. At this stage, it is not. They are only learning to accept tack.
Golightly wrote:
>This is the part I had problems with, Tuffy. The Long Hooves & tail sets are old school ways, I do understand that. I've seen the harness critters at the Royal Winter Fair for years and years. Hackneys, Drafts, Roadsters. I have watched the Trotters at the StdBd. races, live, once in my life. You see tongue tying all the time, in these disciplines. Most people aren't aware of it. Stretchies have been around for a long time, too. Chains? Sorry, still not a huge fan. S'okay. Chain use may diminish, with increased awareness of the willingness of these noble creatures to make us happy. It may not.
But awareness is a good thing to learn.
What we, as horse people, have to realize is that our ways look odd to outsiders and if it looks abusive the outsiders, who outnumber us, will make sure we have to change our ways. They have proven this again and again. They know how to lobby better than we do, they have more money than we do, and they have a lot more bored people with nothing better to do than we do.
> can't imagine "outlawing" bitting rigs, as I've know them. A surcingle, a longing cavesson, a longe-line/whip, loose side-reins, bingo, horse learns something, before you even get on. Over-done, absolutely, it's bad.
I wasn't advocating outlawing them. I'm advocating using them with common sense. Putting one on a yearling or weanling is not going to do anything but raise hackles and make people scream abuse.
>(Throws red roses and green sparkly confetti)
Ohh thanks, but where's my cocoa and plate of cookies?
Tracy M
Well, my goodness, I thought I left the manure at the barn.
Since winging was brought up again - I'd think many of you would realize that often it's conformational. I've got a pidgeon-toed ASB and that's the basis of his winging. Years of massage and stretching later it's not nearly as bad as when he was much younger (almost made you sick to look down on it), but it's still conformationally based.
Now, for both sides, and those of you who know me know I've been refraining: it's saddle seat. TWO words. Just like hunt seat or stock seat or balanced seat. Look it up in the USEF rules or in the original book regarding the discipline's equitation by Helen Crabree.
And, while some non-rider types have done the Rose Parade, I would hope that their horses were sufficiently calm or had calming agents because it is a daunting venue. Big parades are not for the faint of heart nor the inexperienced.
And Tuffy - you didn't like Mr. Lavery's race horse analogy - but what portion of his advice suggested (as your sister pointed out) that he didn't like horses? He advocated NOT getting into a pulling contest with them and that you should work them off the rail. Advocated throwing away all martingales, draw reins, etc. until you could solve the problem as again, a pulling contest wouldn't work. He advocated seat over hands. Are these not "good things" in your POV?
GoLightly - working at finding you some ASBs in your region of Canada. There are some on the West Coast and in Alberta.
attafox,
>Well, my goodness, I thought I left the manure at the barn.
No seems the asb people keep bringing it over here.
>Since winging was brought up again - I'd think many of you would realize that often it's conformational.
And when they don't wing in a straight line and then scuttle around the curves is there a special asb name for this movement? The rest of the horse world calls it unbalanced and winging. It usually happens to horses that aren't trained how to bend or flex on a curve.
>Now, for both sides, and those of you who know me know I've been refraining: it's saddle seat.
Oh the semantics police have arrived. Here's one for you:
Bitting rig on a yearling: It's spelled *abuse*. Long or short yearling, there is no reason for it. Most long yearlings are really only 18 to 20 months old, which is another 12 months away from riding. (If you give a crap about your horse's back)
It's also the sure sign of a trainer that has no idea how to create a mouth on a horse. WTF are you people doing putting solid reins with very little give on a horse that doesn't even have solid bones yet? No wonder your horses develop soft backs and bad neck sets.
>And, while some non-rider types have done the Rose Parade, I would hope that their horses were sufficiently calm or had calming agents because it is a daunting venue. Big parades are not for the faint of heart nor the inexperienced.
Not everyone needs to drug their horse to ride it in a parade. I realize that calming agents are probably the norm for the ASB crowd, but the average horse and rider doesn't need them. We've ridden in parades all our lives, including the Helldorado in Tombstone, Arizona, which is one of the rowdiest and the big Cinco De Mayo in Tucson. We've never used any types of calming agents. The 4th Cavalry horses are trained to work around gunshots and cannon fire, they aren't going to spook at something as mild as a parade.
>And Tuffy - you didn't like Mr. Lavery's race horse analogy - but what portion of his advice suggested (as your sister pointed out) that he didn't like horses?
Because all his advice is littered with gadgets and using harsher methods. Not a single advice column he writes talks about backing off the horse, reducing the severity of the equipment and fillng holes. It's all about increasing the bit severity, rigging up the horse, adding more chains. There is nothing about working the horse *as* a horse. It's all about working the horse to suit the human.
Just for giggles I sent the link to his site to the Bridled Horse group I'm on. They had a field day with it and the unanimous vote was he didn't have a clue as to what he was talking about. Bitting rigs on yearlings? No real horseman would ever consider such a thing. Since your first rides should be bitless why the hell would you risk soring their mouth before you even get on the horse? Not lunging a mature horse? No wonder the show ASBs have no flexion and look like stiff legged things on the curves.
Yet, the non SS ASBs move gracefully and with a lot of bend to them. So it's obvious that there is only one section of the breed that believes that silly crap.
Jean
Mouse said "It usually happens to horses that aren't trained how to bend or flex on a curve."
Yeppers... this drives me NUTS!!! For as much circle work as we do (long lining) a lot of the ridden horses cannot go around a turn properly to save their lives!!! I hate that, and I don't understand it.
I think it's because our judging emphasizes the straightaways - we come out of the turn and set the horse up and that is what the judge looks at - the pass down the rail. The turn, and how the horse takes it, is not judged. Heck, at the Red Mile, some trainers are known for riding a horse deep into the turn, pivoting, and riding straight out - no curving at all (the arena is VERY narrow).
So the horses (and riders) are not taught how to turn properly, and that should be fixed.
So I'm with ya on this one (although it's certainly not abuse, just poor training).
Nope, Tuffy, the manure is flinging from both sides.
My horse wings on the straightaways and at any gait. It's conformational. Training and stretching has helped him, but his pidgeon-toes (and therefore legs angled towards each other) don't help. Since he's not gaited, he's not shuffling on a corner.
As to:
>>Because all his advice is littered with gadgets and using harsher methods. Not a single advice column he writes talks about backing off the horse, reducing the severity of the equipment and fillng holes. It's all about increasing the bit severity, rigging up the horse, adding more chains. There is nothing about working the horse *as* a horse. It's all about working the horse to suit the human.
<<
Once again, you are speaking in absolutes. I provided an example, asked you about that, and other than citing your differences with the race horse analogy, which was a very small portion of it, you have yet to address the rest of it. You say "not a single advice column says to back off the horse," yet in the example I provided, that's exactly what he did.
"Bitting rig on a yearling: It's spelled *abuse*. Long or short yearling, there is no reason for it. Most long yearlings are really only 18 to 20 months old, which is another 12 months away from riding."
"Bitting rigs on yearlings? No real horseman would ever consider such a thing. Since your first rides should be bitless why the hell would you risk soring their mouth before you even get on the horse?"
What I don't understand is where driving fits into this? Almost all animated horses learn to drive before they are ridden. Wouldn't that mean that the horse would have the bit introduced to him before they are ever ridden? In your opinion what is the ideal/typical time line for a horse? Responses from both "sides" are much appreciated.
A bitting rig is not the way to introduce a horse to a bit, at any age, for riding or driving.
I've already explained my process with a colt (long yearling or older, doesn't matter, I do them all the same). Once they are driving well (steering, stopping, rating speed, standing quietly, backing) then I will break them to ride. None of that involves a bitting rig.
To me, a bitting rig is more of a remedial device for a horse who has become heavy in the bridle, or for keeping a seasoned horse "fresh". A yearling is none of these.
I'll pipe up, that I think these horses were developed to be as much a driving horse, as a saddle seat (Ta-Da, sorry about that, attafox) horse. I know. Duh.
I think turning a driving horse is an art, as well, obviously.
They are usually pulling something, and all. They were bred to pull straight, and turn carefully:)
Most good training methods begin on the ground, just as vlayne described. Small, tiny amounts of learning are most beneficial, to any young horse. They can't physically/mentally handle any more than that. Common sense is such a misnomer, though, yes?
The bitting rig is a tool for explanations to the horse. I used it on my 4 year old unbroke TB gelding, with side reins looser than loose, well after he'd been longed and backed. They helped, but they were used well after he'd found his own balance first. I didn't need them much, but I was glad they were there. He "broke" out to be a really nice horse, until BO foundered him, twice.
I never did any driving. Goat tying, side-saddle, tent-pegging, yes, driving a cart of any sort, no. A hole in my education. My Uncle's mini-donkey & trap were sold before I could visit, and I don't think I would have learned much:) It's an art, again, done right.
I've never packed a horse or mule into the Grand Canyon either. Another art.
Tuffy, I quit all caffeine. This unfortunately makes cocoa a no-no.
I miss my coffffeeee. How about Dark Chocolate Aero Bars, aka heaven on earth:)
I KNOW, they have caffeine. But a little is good for you..
Take the roses and the confetti, please? I'm getting snowed in, low on sweets.
"Trojan Mouse"
I do not appreciate your snide and very rude comments about the Saddlebred industry. You obviously enjoy degrading fellow horse enthusiasts.
It seems much of your frustration is coming from the subject of abuse which has a contains a very wide range of breeds as you have made a point to acknowledge. I was born loving horses, specifically choosing the natural beauty of the Morgan, and soon to follow came the born show horse, the Saddlebred.
Now that you know that I stand defending the ASB, I go back to the topic of abuse.
I have seen abuse in every aspect of the horse industry. Whether it be hunters, quarter horses, race horses, or show horses abuse is seen in every breed. It is wrong to tack an industry to abuse. Abuse derives from one person, and that one person is not made up of an industry as a whole.
It is disappointing that your experience with "saddlebred people" has been so negative. I have chosen to pay more attention to the "greats" in the industry than the low life's that lack true talent or patience.
Let me tell you, the percentage of "greats" is much higher than low lifes in the Saddlebred industry. There is a difference between a horse being forced and a horse being enabled to show.
Any true horsemen can see the difference in the ring.
It is disturbing that you enjoy giving such criticism.
Merry Christmas, TJM!
Best wishes and all the best in 2009!
Thanks for being there. I still think you rock. You too, Tuffy!
No Political comments allowed, on Christmas Day:)
Ok about the chain bits, yes some people do abuse them, and i totally agree in some cases it is terrible. HOWEVER, the idea of the harsher bits are lighter hands, I have ridden both Saddle Seat and Dressage; personally i found traits of dressage to be a whole lot crueler. Yes they use smooth snaffles, but with constant pressure and hold on the horses mouth...which they then obviously lean against causing more pressure and damage on the mouth. In the right hands the bits are used as a reminder, not to hang on. You use pretty much no contact on the horses mouth and they are only there if the horse gets away from you or fights and then it is only a slight touch. To me that seems far better that a constant tug on their mouths!
I think places like this are rediculous, made by misinformed people who do not fully understand the subject matter.
Sorry but its the truth.
"but with constant pressure and hold on the horses mouth..."
No, you see, that's bad dressage you're seeing. Lightness is possible, just time consuming.
Bad riding happens across all disciplines. I think heavy hands are a bane of horses' lives.
I still think more initial grounding is needed, in all disciplines, right across the board.
Merry Days Ahead!
Delacosta,
>I do not appreciate your snide and very rude comments about the Saddlebred industry. You obviously enjoy degrading fellow horse enthusiasts.
No, I enjoy degrading horse abusers. If someone isn't abusing a horse then I'm not talking about them.
>It seems much of your frustration is coming from the subject of abuse which has a contains a very wide range of breeds as you have made a point to acknowledge.
I cover all breeds and any breeds. I get sent endless requests to cover topics, breeds, and people. If I was Santa I'd have a naughty list a mile long on trainers that people have turned in to me as bad trainers.
>I have seen abuse in every aspect of the horse industry.
So? Citing abuse in another section of the industry does not excuse it in the ASB industry. Abuse needs to stop. Poor riding needs to stop. Perpetuation of genetic defects needs to stop. I don't care which breed it is, the shit needs to stop.
>It is wrong to tack an industry to abuse. Abuse derives from one person, and that one person is not made up of an industry as a whole.
So you're telling me there is only *one* trainer out there doing Big Lick stuff? Or *one* trainer doing Rolkur? Abuse stems from the idea that *winning* is *everything*. There are a lot of people out there that will ruin a good horse for the sake of a little piece of blue satin.
>It is disappointing that your experience with "saddlebred people" has been so negative.
I can only report on what I see. If the ASB industry didn't have these flaws I wouldn't be reporting on it.
>I have chosen to pay more attention to the "greats" in the industry than the low life's that lack true talent or patience.
You mean the "great" that recommended putting a bitting rig on a yearling? I've encountered some of your *greats* right here and they confirm my blog.
>Let me tell you, the percentage of "greats" is much higher than low lifes in the Saddlebred industry. There is a difference between a horse being forced and a horse being enabled to show.
I dsiagree. As long as you have people that are carded ASB judges putting bitting rigs on yearlings, and severe bits on horses then your lowlife quota is pretty high. And let's not forget the "defenders" that came over here and proved that the SS ASB crowd doesn't understand how their severe bits work, or how a horse's biomechanics work.
>Any true horsemen can see the difference in the ring.
Yes I can. I know good SS, having seen it all my life. YOu can't grow up watching the Al Marah and Tom Chaucey horses and not see good saddle seat.
>It is disturbing that you enjoy giving such criticism.
What is really disturbing is that you find my blog about abuse offensive. Should no one speak up? Should we all just hide our heads and pretend the abuse doesn't exist? Is that how every case of cruelty, neglect and abuse should be handled? By ignoring it and focusing on the positives of the industry?
I don't think so. It's speaking out that gets changes made. Being silent has never accomplished one good thing towards getting abuse stopped.
Jean
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