Lets take this blog to the next level

If you have a photo of crappy show riding, know of a jerkwad trainer or judge, or someone in the show world that is an abusive piece of shit then send the info to me. This blog is not anti-showing, it's anti-abuse. So there is no truth to the claims from the TWH, ASB, western pleasure and dressage zombies that I'm trying to shut showing down. Instead I'm trying to make showing more honest and to get abusive practices out of the showring! Email me at shameinthehorseshowring@gmail.com



I have a request for my readers: If you have successfully rehabbed a show horse, or gotten a rescue and taken it on to a show career then let me know, I'd love to feature you here!






Tuesday, September 30, 2008

It’s all about collection: Horses and Idiots

The beauty of writing a blog is that at some point someone will stumble across it, take everything said on it completely wrong and then blunder off to another blog or forum and pitch a fit. Their first hysterical accusation is that I, as the evil blog writer, am hysterical. Of course the fact that they took every single thing out of context, or took every statement personally, doesn’t matter. I’m the problem, not their inability to read or comprehend.
Let’s look at several of the last blog posts I’ve made and then review the responses. The Icelandic post has inspired comments from here to Siberia. There are entire forums in Finnish, Swedish, German, Icelandic and other languages just bitching about me. Of course they deny the photos show real abuse, and they are filled with indignation that the sight of straining mouths cranked down with dropped nosebands would offend anyone. Silly us, to think we’d be upset! We’ve had Iceland residents stop in and defend some of the practices, and we’ve had them stop in and decry the practices.


Doesn’t this little guy look “thrilled”? That gaping mouth, those shuttered eyes, the fact his head is rammed back into his neck. It’s tradition! So it must be okay!
One thing that keeps getting belabored is how “strong” Icelandics are, like being ridden by a big tall person isn’t a problem. I “get” that Icelandics are strong. They are a small horse and have a dense bone structure. But there is still no reason for a very tall adult to be riding a horse that is the width of a QH yearling. We can see the size of the horses in the pictures. Some of these horses are “not” the heavier draft looking Icelandics. They are thin, fine boned and look like they have giants on them. It simply makes no sense. I even tortured myself and watched Beowolf and Grendal, which had Gerard Butler in it. I would watch anything with Gerard in it, especially hot, sweaty, half-naked, draped in skins Gerard. The movie was filmed in Iceland and there were several scenes of these huge American, British, Danish and Icelandic actors just tolting along in their little short horses. It was embarrassing to watch. I’m sorry, but Gerard is 6’2”. He does not need to be riding a 14 hands tall horse; even if did make his manly parts jiggle appealingly. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0402057/
The riding over the kidneys is just horrible. And despite claims that an Icey has a mysterious 19th rib ( by someone from Iceland), the fact remains that if you’re sitting right in front of the pelvis you are right on top of the kidneys! There is no excuse for the hyperflexion of the neck. There is no reason to be pulling that hard on a horse. If the horse were trained properly he would yield, slow down and collect. Instead these horses are taught to gait fast, without being taught how to work in the bridle. I see evasion in just about every photo. But it’s okay because it’s tradition!





The blog posts that brought howls of dismay from the prowlers were the drecquitation posts. People are mad that it was pointed out that top trainers ride like shit. Like it was a shock or something. Like someone just happened to catch the trainer on a bad day, when all was wrong in their world and they weren’t riding up to par. Bullshit. Trainers put these ads out with the crappy riding and in some case inspire copycat fads, like that leaning back crap the mechanics in motion guy does.



Some of the keyboard jockeys went so far as to spout nonsense about trainers not needing to ride correctly. WTF is that about? Of course trainers need to ride correctly. My favorite comment was “I’d rather be an effective rider than a pretty rider.” Wake up Barbie! If you are an effective rider then you are riding pretty. Equitation means more than the Stepford Wife robot-armed shit we see in the show ring. Equitation is based on the horse’s skeleton and musculature and how the rider has to react to them. It’s not about who has the most spangled shirt or who holds their hand the stiffest. Equitation is about “riding properly”. If you ride properly then good things will fall into place. If you’re riding like shit and still getting a good performance it is because your horse is good enough to compensate for your flaws. He’s forgiving you for your stupidity and making you look good. If he had a good rider on him he’d look even better.


Then there are the little forum monkeys that just love to bitch about the blog but are too chickenshit to post on it. The Horse City Forum, Pleasure Horse Forum and FHOTD Forum come to mind. I have never been so amused in my life to read all the conspiracy theory bullshit that people threw out there.

Them: She hates stock horses.
Me: I grew up owning stock horses and love them dearly

Them: She’s never shown. She knows nothing.
Me: I’ve shown all my life. And when I started showing it meant you went in every class you could, not specializing in one single event.

Them: She doesn’t draw the shoulder lines right
Me: The shoulder lines are drawn “above” the actual shoulder to show the angle, and allow people to see the actual bone structure of the shoulder below. If you seriously thought I was putting the shoulder line to show where the shoulder actually was then you are dumber than dirt. If you look at where the gaskin and hock lines are you can tell the lines show the angles, not the actual structure. DUH!

Them: She’s hysterical.
Me: I’m in one spot, where anyone with a set of balls could comment. You, one the other hand, are running around, frothing at the mouth and having a conniption fit on various forums where all your similarly hysterical friends can back you up. You remind me of smart ass kids who talk big as long as they know a chain link fence separates them from the person willing to kick their ass.

Them: She doesn’t know anything about WP/EP/Iceys etc
Me: I’ve got the photographic and video proof on my side.

Them: I’m disgusted with her blog.
Me: But you’re still reading it and spouting off about it elsewhere.

Them: She cited Black Beauty so she has no credibility.
Me: Why don’t you just get a neon sign showing how ignorant you are? It would make it easier for anyone that meets you to understand you've never read anything more complicated than a comic book.

Black Beauty was written in 1877 by Anna Sewell. Prior to this time there were no animal welfare laws in England, beyond it being frowned upon to slaughter cows and pigs near a church on Sunday. Black Beauty brought an awareness of animal welfare to the general public and then to the members of parliament. Because of the public outcry, the Black Beauty Laws were put into effect, and equine welfare was finally being addressed. Black Beauty was instrumental in getting laws passed that abolished bearing reins(very tight over check reins), limiting the work days of the cab horses and making it possible to jail, or fine, someone that abused, or criminally killed, a horse. In other words Black Beauty did a hell of a lot more for the horse than any of the whining keyboard jockeys.

Them: She generalizes and makes us all out to be abusers.
Me: Get a fricking grip. Unless I specifically name you or use your photo I'm not saying shit about you. If your skin is so thin that nothing even remotely related to your life can be discussed then I suggest you order some kevlar for Christmas and learn to STFU. I can generalize abuse because we all know it exists. We know who abuses and we know who doesn't. If you're that bugged by me mentioning the shitty things that happen in the stock horse show ring then get off your ass and put a stop to them. Don't support the organizations that allow the abuse. And don't pretend that just because an organization has a rule against something that it is being enforced. Make sure the rules are being implemented and don't leave it to the organization to do the right thing,


What is really humorous to me are the little 18 years old know-it-alls that argue about breeds they show, but have no concept of the history. Seriously, shouldn’t there be some kind of test before you can own a horse? Maybe, something that requires that you know a bit about the breed, as well as how to handle it. I have never read so much uninformed shit in my life as I did reviewing the posts about this blog. Look in the mirror people; you’re why this blog exists. You provide me with an endless supply of material! This blog could go on forever and never run out simply because of the people bitching about it.



According to the polls most people think tail blocking and halter are problems. People seem confused that anyone would even consider putting a lip chain on a baby. Oh! It’s for safety! Yes, because it’s so much safer to flip your baby over and wrench his back and neck than have him fidget a bit. But then again a few wrenched backs might cover up the hideous conformation like this halter horse exhibits.








See here people, the line is “above” the fricking shoulder, but follows the angle. The back looks like something a snow boarder would like to take a try one and the neck makes me think of cinder blocks stacked on a horse’s body. Halter champions. Gotta love them.


It’s easy to see why this blog has collected some idiots. They rarely post here, being fearful of having their asses handed to them, but they do bitch, moan and whine on other forums. They are the reason this blog exists.

Now on to collecting horses. There are a lot of people out there under the false impression that a horse can collect himself with his head and neck lower than his withers. They are misinterpreting being in a frame, and being responsive, as being collected. Horses can be strung out like a Times Square crack ho and still be responsive. Just look at any barrel horse or open jumper. Collection is all about the skeleton and then the muscles. It is not about over flexing, bunching up the butt or hindering forward movement.
To quote Dr. Deb Bennett: “(1) the loins coil (2) the part of the back that would be under the saddle arches upward (3) the base of the neck is raised relative to the loins.”

If your horse’s head and neck are lower than his withers then he’s not collected. He’s in a false frame and he’s responding to your cues.

To further quote Dr. Bennett: “For the horse to go correctly "on the bit" or to "look through the bridle," he must raise the base of his neck. The scalenus and longus colli muscles, underslinging the base of the neck like a hammock, lift upward from below, raising the neck bones above. In a horse whose topline muscles are sufficiently relaxed, the uplifting action of the scalenus-longus colli complex comes to be aided by the coordinated contractions of the front part of the longissimus dorsi muscle, which pull the base of the neck upward”

Raise the “base” of the neck. So WP people, can you explain to me how a horse can raise the base of his neck when his chin is at his knees? He can’t. He is not collected. He may be responsive, he may be your personal dream ride, but he’s not collected by any means. I recommend everyone read this page and learn it by heart. http://www.equinestudies.org/knowledge_base/true_collection.html

Then have the balls to tell that trainer on the low-headed WP horse that it isn’t collected, it’s framed. And those of you insisting Icelandics must be hyper flexed need to read the part about gaited horses.

Here’s where the reality of the matter sets in. If you don’t like the blog then don’t read it. Going off to a forum and trying to defend the people that cause the offenses only perpetuates the problem. The show ring has some severe issues that will have to be addressed within the next few years for the horse industry to come out of the rut it is in. People see the show ring as a political arena where abuses are endorsed. People are tired of having to compete against fads, drugs, tail blocking, poor training, gimmicks and trainer/judges that kiss ass to other trainer/judges. So bitch about me if it makes you feel better, but it’s not changing a damn thing. I’d prefer to bitch about the problems and work on getting them fixed.

71 comments:

AbbyAugustArabian said...

Hey,
I just wanted you to know that I read your blog everyday and it is nice to see someone out there who is pointing out the stupid hoops that people have to jump through to show horses nowadays.

I have just started eventing beginner novice after showing equitation and western pleasure for ten years, and I am so much happier now that I don't have to follow the stupid eq and wp trends. I hated how you were taught to ride one way one year and the next year that is not what the judge was looking for.

In eventers it is nice because there is no one set style to ride. You just ride effectively or your ass is in the dirt.

I was also wondering if you could explain the lines that you drew on the halter horse for me. I understand what some of them are, but there were a few I was unsure of. You can e-mail me if you want.

merlinteam4ever@hotmail.com

Abby

Horse's friend said...

All I can say is "you go girl". Ignore the gossip and just tell it like it is. You have far more readers that agree with you than post on those forums.

Trojan Mouse said...

Abby,

Go ahead and ask about the lines and I can explain here.

The lines across the top of a horse from rump to withers show whether the horse is level, uphill or downhill.

Lines just above the shoulder, show the shoulder angle. The shoulder angle should match the hoof angle, so those are what the lines near the hoofs are.

THe lines in front of the gaskin show the gaskin to hock angle.

The lines up the back of the leg show what the hock to fetlock should be parallel too.

If there are any others you want to know about let me know.


TJM

fuglyhorseoftheday said...

I have said before, why don't we have open, non-amateur, equitation at the AQHA, APHA, etc. shows? I'd love to see it!

hotternhel said...

For some reason I think you may be referring to me about lip chains. I think you need to go reread that section on FHOTD. I never once said I condoned showing in a lip chain. To my recollection I don't think anyone else did either. I did say that showing with a chain under the chin is more of a safety measure than restraint. (This is where your "safety" comment came in).

Not once did I or anyone else say "hey let's go put some fucking lip chains on a baby". A broke horse is a broke horse. A horse should not need to be shown with a chain under the chin but it should tolerate a chain under the chin; mare, gelding or stallion. Many halter people do show with lip chains, I don't condone it.

However, I will use it as a restraint method in my work as a vet tech.

Someone, not you, had stated that it is foolish to show a mare or gelding with a chain under the chin. My response is that you are a fool if you put full and 100% trust into an animal that outweighs you by such a great amount, in a class with other horses. Anything can happen in the show ring. Seasoned horses spook even while retired on the rail.

Then you get the fucking bleedng hearts that say "my horsie is perfect, he has never needed a chain to be shown, let alone handled. This is almost the same as saying dogs should not have to be kept on leashes. Because we all know dogs never attack other people even if they have never bitten before. They are animals; same as horses, and SHIT HAPPENS.

This is why I say that chains under the chin are not evil. No one was condoning lip chains in the show ring. Please relay your info accurately. Did you call me out by name, no, but comments you relayed were relaing to my posts and you relayed that information inaccurately. The posts are still there for all to see.

There is much abuse that goes on at the breed shows.You condone not supporting those associations yet you also say that we need to make a change in them. Most associations you have to be a memmber to vote on the issues. Most associations only investigate issues raised by its members. Not participating in the association and bitching about the issues on the "outside" will not solve anything.

You do have some good insight and you are right about many things, but please; if you want to help eliminate these abuses, please become a member and speak up at meetings. Sending family members to meetings is not the same.

hotternhel said...

ETA: Please excuse the typos. It is 1:30 in the morning and I'm tired.

Trojan Mouse said...

No Hotternhell,

I was referring to you with the comment about a horse with his head lower than his withers being collected. Seems to me you were going to prove to me that it was possible to collect in that frame, even though the loin and neck base can not be used correctly in that position. It's not collection, even if the big AQHA trainers say it is. It's frame, with response.


I don't have a problem with a chin chain on a horse. But I think showing in a lip chain is just an ad for how fucking poor a trainer someone is.


TJM

Trojan Mouse said...

FHOTD,

If the breed shows required trainers to win an equitation class before they could show open the open classes would be empty.


I also think there should be a judge out watching the warm up pen at all times and giving people strikes that count against them when they enter the class. I've seen too many trainers beat the shit out of a horse in the warm up ring and then ride into the class like nothing happened.

TJM

hotternhel said...

A peanut roller no, but a level headset; or with the poll slightly below the withers the horse can raise the base of his neck and be collected. This is to what I was referring.

Trojan Mouse said...

hotternhell,

>A peanut roller no, but a level headset; or with the poll slightly below the withers the horse can raise the base of his neck and be collected. This is to what I was referring.

No, really he can't. He cannot use the muscle groups required for collection. Nor can he completely engage his loin. Bennett, Klimke, Gurney, even Leonardo Da Vinci, who did some of the earliest equine anatomy studies, all agree. You cannot engage the base of the neck with the head level or below the withers. What you are describing is a responsive horse in an artificial frame.

Collection, like equitation, is a term tossed out by trainers and neophytes and has come to mean something completely different to what it actually defines. I don't give a shit if the best WP trainer on the planet says his horse is collected, if the head and neck are below the withers the horse is not collected.



TJM

hotternhel said...

Well then I guess that I'm going to have to take my mare out back and shoot her for having a level or slightly higher than level headset and not being collected and all. Please; I will buy your plane ticket,you can come ride my mare.

I guess myself and other professional horse people alike have to disagree with you. You throw out one article like it's God's word and bam... no WP people even know how to collect their horses. I find some of these "facts" quite amusing. Really... Keep them coming, it gives me something to respond to during the hours I'm not training a horse. As I said before, many of your ideas, thoughts, expressions are correct; some of them are wrong. This blog is fun to read, but is like any other horse related endeavor. You must be able to sift through the bullshit to get to the real stuff.

Please, go ride with Shawn Flarida, go ride with George Williams. Then maybe, you will learn that horse's can and DO collect themselves with a level, slightly lower than level, or slightly higher than level headset. George will even tell you that.

I do have pictures just in case you want some proof. Base of neck lifted; shoulders lifted, hind end engaged...

You wrote " Bennett, Klimke, Gurney, even Leonardo Da Vinci, who did some of the earliest equine anatomy studies, all agree".

Are you sure of this? Where are the citations and works? Where the hell is the proof?

Even if they did happen to agree, any "study" done by Leonardo Da Vinci was done so long ago that he could not have known everything that we know about horses today. He could have formed improper hypothesis, etc. Seems to kinda make his whole "agreement with the issue" a moot point, eh?

Carrie Giannandrea said...

I like your blog and I check constantly for new updates.

Thank you TJ for bringing out the atrocities being done to the horse!

Good Eq, good training as well as good conformation make a PRETTY PICTURE!!

Carrie Giannandrea
Dances with Horses
Formula One Farms

anniebanannie said...

"I do have pictures just in case you want some proof. Base of neck lifted; shoulders lifted, hind end engaged..."

Let's see them.

CutNJump said...

Wow! TJM- that is like several posts in one!

You might break it down next time for easier reading for the uncomprehensive ignorant twits among us.

Keyboard jockeys- I love it.

Even our 'top notch' dressage barn neighbors haven't a fucking clue! One of our previous students went with them when they moved in nearby- since they also host shows.

She has a horse she bought 9 months ago- green broke and has been hauling her over there for lessons religiously.

I'll be damned if they cannot get her to canter. AT ALL! The mare is so heavy on the forehand from the consistent use of side reins and hanging on her face, she couldn't get out of her own way if she tried.

One lesson, a few excerises to loosen up the shoulders and wahlaaa. By the end of the hour Johnie Rotten had her cantering her horse. A few strides and on the wrong lead, but cantering nonetheless. (Leads are an easy fix as we all know...) She was thrilled, and the work was not difficult for either of them.

As for the trainers and people featured in the pictures bitching about their use- the faces are blocked out. Even the horses' face sometimes. Unless ALL of us know the horse or the outfit, there's really no way of knowing who it is. Unless of course your names are named, which I haven't seen done yet.


By the way bitchers, if names were mentioned, then so be it! Unless of course the truth hurts, which we all know to well IT DOES!

Sorry but if you are going to follow blindly along, and you got picked on, then maybe it's time to take a long, hard, honest, open minded look at what you are dong and change your ways. Be a part of the solution- NOT the problem.

Shouldn't these fuckwits be outed? After all, they ARE the one responsible for PROMOTING this bullshit we see in the ring referred to by them as 'training'.

CutNJump said...

I just have to comment on this-

"It’s all about collection: Horses and Idiots"


And what a collection it is!

Way to go TJM!

*cheering from the side lines*

Carrie Giannandrea said...

CutNJump said:

"Shouldn't these fuckwits be outed? After all, they ARE the one responsible for PROMOTING this bullshit we see in the ring referred to by them as 'training'. "

Yes, I do believe anyone who is training improperly should be outed! Training a horse for its "whole life" instead of for the immediate win gives the horse "value"! Something a whole lot of auction yard horses are wishing they had!

Carrie Giannandrea
Dances with Horses
Formula One Farms

Andrea said...

hotternhel,

"Are you sure of this? Where are the citations and works? Where the hell is the proof?"

WTF? She just quoted proof right there in the blog. The proof is if you stripped your horse down to his bare bones and watched him move. Study after study has been done on this--you can't deny true science.

"Even if they did happen to agree, any "study" done by Leonardo Da Vinci was done so long ago that he could not have known everything that we know about horses today. He could have formed improper hypothesis, etc. Seems to kinda make his whole "agreement with the issue" a moot point, eh?"

Obviously you have never studied Da Vinci. Da Vinci's work on the human and animal anatomies are STILL being used to this date as accurate representations of the human/horse/cat/etc. body. If I remember correctly, the man took the bodies apart piece by piece, peeling back each layer of skin and muscle, to draw what he saw. I think even Grey used Da Vinci's drawings as reference when he wrote Grey's Anatomy.

You say that Da Vinci couldn't possibly have known all the stuff we know today about horses. I beg to differ--people did not work the way they do now back then, so Da Vinci had hours upon hours to study horses. He probably saw things that we are only now "discovering," such as the importance of proper collection and teaching a horse to carry itself correctly. Plus, horses have not evolved into different animals in the very few thousand years since Da Vinci was alive, and we have scientific proof of that. Evolution happens over millions of years, not a few thousand. And unfortunately, breeders have done such horrible things to horses over the years to get a ceratin look (dish-faced Arabs and bulldog-like Halter horses on stick legs) or a certain movement (peanut rollers, breeding a TWH to pace so when they sore 'em it'll "square 'em up") that it has actually ruined the purity of horses in general.

Man, it amazes me how people can be so ignorant of fact that is put right in front of their faces. It's like people saying the sky is green when anyone can look outside and see that it's blue. GEEZ.

Sug said...

I am so glad you referred to Deb Bennett's work in your post, Trojan Mouse. I really think her work is abysmally underused, despite pieces of it being published in reputable magazines (Equus) for decades now and not just through her own institute of learning.

Sometimes I forget about the articles she has long had posted on the "Knowledge Base" section of her site. I read the one you referred to in your post again. And quite frankly, I could probably read it ten more times and not get out of it everything it's intended to convey.

A note about your equitation posts. I have asked for clarification on certain of your colored lines before (though they were in reference to the conformation posts, not equitation), and you had mentioned that you did not necessarily draw them completely accurately but enough so that the point was made. Do you feel the rider's heel should be directly below his/her hip? I speak specifically of hunter seat equitation. I suppose I ride more "at the girth" and with my leg not so far back.

Sug said...

Andrea sai, "Man, it amazes me how people can be so ignorant of fact that is put right in front of their faces."

Does it really amaze you? Others? It doesn't amaze me anymore. I am jaded and am prone to more pessimistic views as I age. It's sad, really, but it's the truth.

I remember once being asked to do a conformation lecture for a group of Pony Club members. I was deeply involved in studying Deb Bennett's theories back then (maybe 2000), so I went that route--starting conformation study at the loin...and on and on. The leader of the group was impressed, I think, but she said she was a little surprised at how I approached it. She thought I would start with the old 4-H way of balance, muscling, structural correctness, quality and travel--all important features. I was NOT asked back again. Instead a person that teaches the 4-H way was brought back. So, on this excursion, the children all learn about pigeon toes and cow hocks but nothing whatsoever about what holds the front end of the horse to the rear end. Sigh.

I am not sure people want to learn anymore. Really learn. If it cannot be digested in two minutes or less, it's too complex or it's not important or __________ (fill in the blank with the appropriate poor reason).

In pursuit of learning anatomy, I participated in a five-day anatomy class in which we took apart a pony, peeling muscles away one by one. I flew across the country in pursuit of knowledge. I once thought everyone would do this if the opportunity presented itself but now I don't think so.

cattypex said...

Oh Lordy....

A lot of people STILL think that "slow" = "collected."

And that weird noodly-legged lopey joggy thing that WP horses are doing now? Is THAT supposed to be "collection"????

All this OBSESSION with the NOSE on/behind/in front of the vertical, has NOTHING to do with engagement of the hindquarters, which is a big fat chunk of true collection.

WP people are so misinformed, and obsessed with glacial slowness, "putting a horse in a frame," or "headsets," which are completely artificial constructs that have NOTHING to do with correct movement !!!!!! GAH... the very terminology is SO telling. "Setting" a head a certain way and going slooooooooooow is no more useful to real life collection, engagement, etc.

It frustrates me SO much. It reeks of quick-fix, just-for-pretty (not really pretty), ignorant misinterpretation of body mechanics. And I'm not even a terribly educated person or a Trainer!!!!

CutNJump said...

All this speak of a level or below level headset- Sheesh! As if that is ALL that matters...

What about impulsion, roundness, balance working off the rear end, working in the bridle and all???

Apparently it's all about the 'headset' which comes naturally, when everything else is in place. But all of us knew that one, right? Is that why only the headset matters?

I would put a small tip here about how to get the head back into a naturally lowered position, but it would be lost on so many deaf ears.

I bet the horses would like it MUCH, MUCH better than a jab in the side with a spur and a yank on the reins..., but then when you aren't training them to begin with, you wouldn't know how to ask or what to feel for when you actually DO get the desired response.

*massive eyeroll*

may said...

"My favorite comment was “I’d rather be an effective rider than a pretty rider.” Wake up Barbie! If you are an effective rider then you are riding pretty."

Have you SEEN some of the top eventers? George Morris commented about one top event rider (I can't remember his name offhand) that it was impossible to find a good picture of his riding and a bad one of his horse. Effective and pretty are NOT synonymous, although ideally they should go together, particularly in equitation classes.

cattypex said...

CNJ can I marry you? :P


Yup, it's all about where a horse's HEAD goes.....


As for "pretty" riding, there's pretty, and then there's good.

If you're perched up there with all the parts in the "right" place, but stiff like a little green army man, that's not Good riding.

If you've got a good seat, following hands, moving WITH the horse, so what if your heels aren't all the way down?

But really, form follows function. I bet George Morris was talking about "pretty" in the super-rarified H/J equestrian sense...

Hey, pretty-looking riding vs. good riding isn't all that different from this other correct movement of the horse issue!

CutNJump said...

May- There was a video series called "The Horse In Sport". There were videos for jumping, rodeo, dressage, driving and a handful of other events.

In the jumping video they showed Reiner Klimke (sp?) on a horse I forget the name... (Alerich I think?)

Anyways, over every single jump, the horse is ducking one way and Reiner is ducking the other to balance them over the fence. They referred to their form as "Unconventional".

Boy is it ever, but sometimes riding and pretty, just don't fit. A good rider knows effectiveness will get them further any day.

Cattypex- I'm blushing... LOL!

CutNJump said...

On the pretty vs. effective note-

If you have trained your horse properly, your aids are effective and the horse is moving correctly, it is easy to sit up there all 'perched' and look pretty.

Then the smile on your face is a genuinely 'real' one, instead of that fake, painted on thing we are all so used to seeing...

Tuffy Horse said...

Andrea,

>Obviously you have never studied Da Vinci. Da Vinci's work on the human and animal anatomies are STILL being used to this date as accurate representations of the human/horse/cat/etc. body. If I remember correctly, the man took the bodies apart piece by piece, peeling back each layer of skin and muscle, to draw what he saw. I think even Grey used DaVinci's drawings as reference when he wrote Grey's Anatomy.

Andrea,THANK YOU for posting this so I didn't have too. Da Vinci's anatomy of the horse has drawings that even current vet schools use. They are clear, crisp and so precisely drawn some of them look like photos.

HotternHell, I really don't care what your trainer buddies "know". They evidently don't know you can't lift the base of the neck and have a level topline.
When you want to take time out from trying horses to "frame" up then take some equine anatomy classes or sit in on some autopsies so you can learn muscle structure. Then hand draw all the muscles and label them. When you finally see how they connect you'll realize that what you call collecting is NOT real collection.

I can't imagine people that own horses that do not understand the biomechanics of the animal.


Tracy M.
http://thehorsediary.blogspot.com/

Tuffy Horse said...

May wrote:

>Have you SEEN some of the top eventers? George Morris commented about one top event rider (I can't remember his name offhand) that it was impossible to find a good picture of his riding and a bad one of his horse.

There is a BIG difference between flat classes and anything over fences. Even the best rider will shift while taking fences. But to ride poorly on the rail, especially in the manner we see in HUS and WP, there is no excuse.
George is his own worst critic. His biggest fault is that he doesn't think he looks as cute on a horse as a twelve year old girl does.

Tracy M
http://thehorsediary.blogspot.com/

Tuffy Horse said...

Sug wrote:
>I remember once being asked to do a conformation lecture for a group of Pony Club members. I was deeply involved in studying Deb Bennett's theories back then (maybe 2000), so I went that route--starting conformation study at the loin...and on and on. The leader of the group was impressed, I think, but she said she was a little surprised at how I approached it. She thought I would start with the old 4-H way of balance, muscling, structural correctness, quality and travel--all important features. I was NOT asked back again. Instead a person that teaches the 4-H way was brought back. So, on this excursion, the children all learn about pigeon toes and cow hocks but nothing whatsoever about what holds the front end of the horse to the rear end. Sigh.

I sympathize! I give clinics all the time. Trying to tell people that a horse's sinuses/ears/throat are all connected and can determinie how a horse breathes and uses his heads just gets me incredulous looks.
For one of my daughter's 4H classes I drew the skeleton on the demo animal with contractor's chalk. We used our black welsh mare, who was a trooper.
When she was finally skeletized and the kids were asking questions I noticed the other 4 H leader giving me weird looks. I finally asked her if she had a question ( just to put her out of her misery)
She said: I wish you had done this on a horse, so the kids would know where their bones are. We don't have many kids riding ponies.
Death by clipboard would have been too good for her.


Tracy M
http://thehorsediary.blogspot.com/

CutNJump said...

Tuffyhorse- death by clipboard... GAWD! i would have loved to have seen that.

I would have rather embarrassed the hell out of the person and asked them what the difference was with the exclusion of height and proportion?

Let me hear an answer to that one in front of everyone...

Some people just don't get it.

Tuffy Horse said...

CutnJump,

I'm sure somewhere there is a law that is specific to the punishment for killing ignorant parents with clipboards or sharpie pens. Personally I think it's one of those things that should garner an immediate free pass, like killing cheating spouses. If you catch them in the act you should be allowed to kill them.


However, in light of the recent question of the veracity of some of Sis's statements, I can offer a few from my favorite riding masters ( not trainers, because the term is too plebian)

Horsemanship is the one art for which it seems one needs only practice. However, practice without true principles is nothing other than routine, the fruit of which is a strained and unsure execution, a false diamond which dazzles semi-connoisseurs often more impressed by the accomplishments of the horse than the merit of the horseman.
Francois Robichon de la Gueriniere


I think a lot of the horses in the show ring today are false diamonds. They appear dazzling DESPITE the fact they're being handled against their nature.

The next two are so relevant! I love Kunffy's books!

A horse 'held in shape' by his rider is only posturing in a seemingly correct form, usually for the benefit of inexperienced observers.
~Charles de Kunffy

...there are more and more peole who have no access to classical equestrian education or lack the will to purue it, riders who are intellectually lazy, are physically incompetent, and will gladly promote the notion that there is a new kind of dressage akin to technology.
~Charles de Kunffy


This is what has demoralized the western show industry. People do not know how to create a "bridled" horse anymore. Instead they ride strung out, using fad frames, and changing the "in" style every feew years or so. This is the difference between "classical" riding and "fad" riding. Classical riding will survive because it is actually based on the horse's nature. Fad riding changes with whatever trainer is considered the flavor of the month.

I have yet to see any of the stock horse trainers come even close to this level of collection.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T3AcvnEuMw&feature=related

I wonder what HUS and WP would be like if people had to work individually, under the judge's eye the whole time. That whole plucking and jabbing crap would get discounted pretty quick.



Tracy M
http://thehorsediary.blogspot.com/

cattypex said...

That video of Alerich always makes my eyes sting....

You ROCK for quoting Charles de Kunffy! er however you spell it ....

Those are awesome quotes. I'm gonna paste them to my Stickies so they're readily available.

And go re-read some books......

Really, the only fashion that should've changed in the last 100 years is... um... breeches?

Well, except the "forward seat," which isn't as old as it should be.

Sigrún said...

lol.. see you dont have a prob. about adults rideing Icelandics other than it looks silly to you..

heimski kani...

Tuffy Horse said...

Sigrun wrote:

>lol.. see you dont have a prob. about adults rideing Icelandics other than it looks silly to you..

I don't think anyone has a problem with adults riding small horses, as long as it's small adults. I have a problem with big adults riding little horses.


Tracy M.
http://thehorsediary.blogspot.com/

Trojan Mouse said...

Sug said...

(Just curious, is it Sug like Tug or Sug like Sugar?)


>I am so glad you referred to Deb Bennett's work in your post, Trojan Mouse. I really think her work is abysmally underused, despite pieces of it being published in reputable magazines (Equus) for decades now and not just through her own institute of learning.

I agree. Her books and articles are so educational. I really think people "miss" reading them because she is not a flamboyant, loincloth- wearing, carrot-stick-wielding, horse-whispering, capitalist.

>I read the one you referred to in your post again. And quite frankly, I could probably read it ten more times and not get out of it everything it's intended to convey.

I agree. I get something new every time I read it. I can also get absorbed in her Conquerers book and spend an entire day reading and comparing it with other works!

>Do you feel the rider's heel should be directly below his/her hip? I speak specifically of hunter seat equitation. I suppose I ride more "at the girth" and with my leg not so far back.

In equitation classes I like to see the heel as closely in line with the ear as possible. But in other classes it would probably be forward. What I do not like to see is the leg in front of the girth, or the toe well past the elbow.

I think a lot of the poor riding we see in the equitation ring is based on the fashion of riders sticking their butts out and making their backs convex. Their butt sticks out and their leg pokes foreward. This also raises the heel. The woman on the big chestnut horse in the english dreck post was a classic example. I just want to blow a pea shooter at the horse so it will buck and unseat someone riding so poorly.

TJM

Cooper's Fan Girl said...

Da Vinci studied baroque horses who have upright frames, they didn't have quarter horses back in the Renaissance. He wouldn't have ever seen a good horse with a natural level frame carrying himself properly.

Trojan Mouse said...

Cooper's Fan Girl said...
>Da Vinci studied baroque horses who have upright frames, they didn't have quarter horses back in the Renaissance. He wouldn't have ever seen a good horse with a natural level frame carrying himself properly.


Allison, don't be fucking stupid. It doesn't matter what breed of horse it is, they ALL have the same fricking muscles and bones ( with respect to Arabs sometimes lacking one vertabrae)

No horse can lift the base of his neck if his head and neck are below his withers. It is physically impossible, whether it is a QH or a Saddlebred.

I'm sure DaVinci saw better horses than most of the crap in the show ring today. Breeding was mandated by royal decrees and all noblemen were required to ride stallions, in order to improve the training and breeding of horses.
When you get tired of of being a know nothing then get your ass of the couch and go find some books that actually teach anatomy and history.

TJM

Jamie said...

Thanks for the good post! I tend to be one of those people that can feel collection, but can't explain it...especially from the anatomy standpoint. So that link was very helpful. Me and my horse have come so far in the past year it's astonishing. But the first was just the basics and some stretching and balancing. I didn't start on true collection until this year. And yep...he does it out in the field and on the lunge line with no equipment, so I know it's natural for him. :)

cattypex said...

"Da Vinci studied baroque horses who have upright frames, they didn't have quarter horses back in the Renaissance. He wouldn't have ever seen a good horse with a natural level frame carrying himself properly."

Um... where do you think quarter horses CAME from?

Baroque horses. From Spain. Yeah, with some TB and morgan mixed in.

Heh, there's a SUPER cute registered AQHA gelding in my lesson who looks like some kind of baroque/Morgan cross. Moves like it, too. Now, THAT's Foundation. ; )

Trojan Mouse said...

Cattypex,

>Baroque horses. From Spain. Yeah, with some TB and morgan mixed in.

>Heh, there's a SUPER cute registered AQHA gelding in my lesson who looks like some kind of baroque/Morgan cross. Moves like it, too. Now, THAT's Foundation. ; )


According to Allison QHs and Morgans are not even distantly related.

Ignore the fact that ranchers were encouraged to use them to improve mustang breeding. Ignore the fact the US government had TB and Morgan remount stallions spread all through the west. Allison says QHs and Morgans are not related, so it must be so.

TJM

Carrie Giannandrea said...

TJM said:

"If she wasn't such a bitch she'd give me Vader for my birthday so I could have my own stallion to brag about."

Now now TJ...........you know how attached Vader is, besides, he is only a short walk away! Just pretend he is yours! LOL!

Carrie Giannandrea
Dances with Horses
Formula One Farms

Sug said...

RANDOM THOUGHTS

Tuffy Horse wrote: "George is his own worst critic. His biggest fault is that he doesn't think he looks as cute on a horse as a twelve year old girl does.

George is hard on himself but I've a feeling he still considers himself cute, even to this day. He did a great job preparing the United States show jumping teams for Beijing (or Hong Kong, more appropriately).

And then she wrote: "Death by clipboard would have been too good for her."

Clever and funny comment. But doesn't the ignorance just want to make you give up sometimes. I guess I might be preaching to the choir here, but sometimes I am falbbergasted at the level of ignorance.

Trojan Mouse asked: "Is it Sug like tug or Sug like Sugar?"

Sug like Sugar. It's a nickname.

Report from the field: I attended an AQHA-approved show this weekend--not a huge one but several stallions were on the grounds, maybe eight or nine (that's a lot for a weekend show). Not a single lip chain was used. Now I know as well as Trojan Mouse that they are used frequently, but not so much at this show. Some of the stallions were yearlings, so maybe it was an age-related (and thereby disposition-based) decision.

Same show: Someone was longeing a horse with a chain through it's mouth (a chain that you'd find on a leadrope)--trust me, nothing worse than some bits. He was tugging a little now and then but nothing excessive in my opinion. The warm-up ring was situated near the show ring; the judges noticed him longeing the horse in this manner and requested AQHA's representatives (two Professional Horseman) go speak to him about inhumane and unethical practices. They did. Everyone was kind, the guy snapped the chain to the bottom ring of the halter and continued longeing. Smiles and laughs. Of course, as this is going on, the jerking and spurring is going on in a whirwind around him.

Trust me, I am not DEFENDING some actions by people but it seems as though some of AQHA's people are looking out for misdeeds. At least some misdeeds.

Oh, and I almost forgot this, one judge actually went to look at the sides of some of the western pleasure horses. She was blatant about it. She was obviously looking for spur marks. Good for her. Too bad she was not a good judge as far as selecting the best horses.

Carrie Giannandrea said...

cattypex said:

"Really, the only fashion that should've changed in the last 100 years is... um... breeches?"

Thank goodness for that!! I don't like jods..........they are funky!

Carrie Giannandrea
Dances with Horses
Formula One Farms

Carrie Giannandrea said...

Tuffy Horse -

Awesome quotes! Thank you for those, they make me want to go to the library, NOW!

Carrie Giannandrea
Dances with Horses
Formula One Farms

Tuffy Horse said...

Sug,

>But doesn't the ignorance just want to make you give up sometimes. I guess I might be preaching to the choir here, but sometimes I am falbbergasted at the level of ignorance.


Me too. I get really shocked when people tell me how long they've had horses and they're still doing stupid stuff. 30 years and ignorant as a post.
One of the most aggravating things people pass on is breed bigotry. Kids learn this crap from their trainers and parents.
I once did an entire demo on a roan snowflake Appaloosa mare. She is a peach of a horse, nothing bothers her and she's perfect for any close quarters clinics. I had one of the kids tell me that she sure liked my horse. I thanked her, and then this same kid said: I'm glad you brought her instead of an Appaloosa because they are mean and stupid. I asked her who told her that and she said: My grandma.
I then told her that my mare was a registered Appaloosa and she was certainly not mean or stupid.
I was then informed that ALL Appaloosas are white wirh dark spots, so my mare was not an Appaloosa. I don't advocate child abuse, so I just dropped the discussion.


>Smiles and laughs. Of course, as this is going on, the jerking and spurring is going on in a whirwind around him.

Oh good Lord. Does that just make you want to scream?

>Trust me, I am not DEFENDING some actions by people but it seems as though some of AQHA's people are looking out for misdeeds. At least some misdeeds.

You are so right. The PC police will crack down on some things and ignore others.


>Oh, and I almost forgot this, one judge actually went to look at the sides of some of the western pleasure horses. She was blatant about it. She was obviously looking for spur marks. Good for her.

I do that too. I love busting the paint and App people that put the gray spur marks on their horse's white sides. Like DUH. I can see that crap from the rail people!

Tracy M
http://thehorsediary.blogspot.com/

Tuffy Horse said...

Carrie,

>Now now TJ...........you know how attached Vader is, besides, he is only a short walk away! Just pretend he is yours! LOL!


She can forget that! She can get her own horse.

Besides, she's an ungrateful wretch. I took her some tomatos earlier and she got all pissed because I was reading fugly from her computer while she skinned them. My fricking wireless server and she won't share her puter. What a maggot!.

Tracy M
http://thehorsediary.blogspot.com/

GoLightly said...

Holy crap, what a bunch of idiots... I am so glad you're out there!!! Too bad these witches spend so much time ranting at you, when they could just try to learn something, and make their horses way more comfortable. Basic anatomy is tough for some people, as well as changing their hard headed minds. "HeadSet" should be stricken from any horse-person's vocabulary. Horses work from their hind to the front. A horse with his head level to, or below his withers, is never, ever balanced, or collected. Maybe we could start calling them contortionistas??
TJM, you rock.
CNJ, it was Paul Schoekmole (sp) & Deister, him jumping one way, Deister twisting the other. I still watch those horse in sport videos. I still cry when I watch Gail Greenough win the World Champs, against Nick Skelton, Conrad Homfeld, and Pierre Durant.
Girls rule, boys drool:)
better work
Keep blogging!!

cattypex said...

Thanks go lightly

I was hoping this thread would get back on track, since it's important.

It sucks when people start getting personal...

TJM, for once I have to say, take a chill pill, and keep the commentary focused on the HORSES and poor vs. effective RIDING and TRAINING.

hotternhel, you chill too.

tsk tsk ;)


ANYWAY.... any horseman from any discipline other than stock horse pleasure will tell you that there is NO WAY a horse with its body all strung out can ever truly collect!! It's physically impossible, and it's SO TRUE that the hindquarters are YOUR ENGINE. It pushes the horse from behind, and that head & neck are balancing the movement. Heck, I'm not even well-versed in Dr. Deb's stuff (though I LOVE it, I'm not ready for a quiz), and that's what I was ALWAYS told by many horsemen.

How ironic that QH's have those nice big butts, but only in cutting/reining do they get to USE them.

The Baroque-looking QH I posted about earlier is used as a dressage horse. He's a cute mover.

CutNJump said...

Seems the party got into full swing while I was sleeping. Sheesh. I guess that will teach me, eh?


Golightly- Thank you for the correction. I remember the video and seeing those two going over some huge jumps and both of them leaning opposite directions and thinking W!T!F?!?!

I also remember Michael Matz shown working a big chestnut horse on the flat and over a few fences. I can still remember his statement about how if the horse has no talent and doesn't enjoy jumping they will never do it well. "You can hit me in the butt with a cattle prod, but it still won't make me run like Carl Lewis!"

Last spring I body clipped a mare, whose sire is Abdullah. Yeah, that was beyond cool!

The local PBS station aired them in their entirety each night and I taped the ones I wanted. Over the years I lost the tape. Never seen the series listed since, but I haven't exactly searched high and low either...

CutNJump said...

Just like the blog post title-

"It’s all about collection: Horses and Idiots"


Apparently it is quite the collection.


Oh and hotternhel- I don't know if my posts were omitted or used- I really don't care either way, but even still- I doubt they were as any information, as I said before would be lost on so many deaf ears. Which from the sounds of things is about all you have listening to your blathering.

Trojan Mouse said...

Golightly,

>"HeadSet" should be stricken from any horse-person's vocabulary. Horses work from their hind to the front.

I agree.

>A horse with his head level to, or below his withers, is never, ever balanced, or collected.

I'd extropolate on this a bit further. Cutting horses working with their heads low are balanced for the job they are doing. Balance does not equal collection, although collection always equals balance.


?Maybe we could start calling them contortionistas??

Cute, sounds so Cirque De Soliel!
How about Frameanistas? The WP industry has be riding in "frames' since the early 80s. I haven't see a truly collected WP stock horse since the last ApHC Nationals in Columbus, Ohio, so a long, long time.

Trojan Mouse said...

golightly,

>CNJ, it was Paul Schoekmole (sp) & Deister, him jumping one way, Deister twisting the other. I still watch those horse in sport videos. I still cry when I watch Gail Greenough win the World Champs, against Nick Skelton, Conrad Homfeld, and Pierre Durant.


I am having a total brain lock up and cannot remember the name of the big red horse that jumped bridleless with the jaw bit. He was so fricking awesome! My younger, and much more senile sister, can't remember either.

may said...

"There is a BIG difference between flat classes and anything over fences. Even the best rider will shift while taking fences. But to ride poorly on the rail, especially in the manner we see in HUS and WP, there is no excuse."

Tracy M, I completely agree. I'd also add that in other non-rail classes (cutting, roping, even reining to a certain extent) there are plenty of good riders who don't look pretty, but they sure make their horses look good.

CutNJump said...

Trojan Mouse- Cutters certainly work with their heads down low. Good call on that one.

Sadly on RFD some of the cutters we see on Rode to the Winners Circle, their heads are coming up a little.

I hope this isn't a new 'trend' as it would be bad...

CutNJump said...

May- take a gander at some of the lead pony riders or outriders on the track. Some of them seriously flop along like a sack of potatoes. Even on derby day

I feel for their mounts.

Trojan Mouse said...

CutnJump,

>Sadly on RFD some of the cutters we see on Rode to the Winners Circle, their heads are coming up a little.

I wonder if the little cutters are having to shift their center of gravity to hold up some of those huge riders. They can't drop their heads as low because the weight compressing their spines makes it impossible to round up and drop down.

Tuffy Horse said...

Samsung Woodstock!

HA! Call me senile huh!

GoLightly said...

TJM, yeah sorry, after I typed and sent, I realized how over-general that comment was. The horse can be balanced, doing just about anything he wants, can't he? It is, after all, his body! Depends on how he is conformed, of course. And how crappy or not the rider is.
The downhill horses are just built wrong. Very few, if any that I knew of anyway, ever amounted to much, soundness and falling down wise. As long as his rider is staying the heck out of his way, horses can do incredible things, maintaining their own balance. A horse is in perfect balance when he's throwing ya through the air!
I had an old schoolie that would lean up against the arena wall, to help his adult beginners stay on, if he felt their balance shift. He'd let kids fall off, though. He was a tall TWH cross, he HATED kids.
Anyway, yes, cutters are in a class all their very own. Frickin' cats on the hoof:) I love to watch a good cutting horse. The great reiners are way cool, too. Sigh!
And I totally get why you like the Rugged Lark video.
That is balance, alright. Pseudo-Dressage people, notoriously wacko (sorry, I KNOW they are not all wacko) in their mind SET, can't see it. Oh, that's not DRESSage.
I guess I just stared at the WP horses too long, where whatever the heck it is that they're doing, it isn't balanced, or "collected" or frankly pleasant to watch. What purpose does the jog serve in these WP classes? I don't get it.
I don't consider shuffling along with your horse's nose at his knees balanced. And if it's to hearken back to the old days, when cowboys needed a slow comfortable faster than a walk gait, couldn't it at least cover some more ground?? Oh, right, if ya can't sit the trot, slow it down!!!
You ain't seen nothing 'til you've seen Mongolian Riders. Julia Roberts did a TV special about them, god, what poor, weedy, fugly little critters.
I guess those in Iceland had to ride what they had, as well. I'm talking culturally speaking, now. I'm tall, and in my youth, if all I'd had to ride were Icelandics, I'da ridden 'em!
I'd need way more of a memory jog with big red horse with no bit, (was it on that video?). I'm probably way older than even your younger (reportedly) senile sister.
Excellent quote from CdK. So true, we've complicated a very simple thing, all you need is to let the horse find his balance, with rider, and then, ride him forward, (straight comes along after that, oh what a nice feeling it is) and you're already halfway there!!! Perfect practice makes perfect, another George-ism. Trouble is, some just don't have TIME to practice. I can't believe how many riders still use their hands first, to (I hate this phrase) "frame" him. At a clinic with George Morris & Christilot Boylen (OH, I was in HEAVEN) everything they said was preceded by Ride him Forward.
Frameanistas, gets my vote.
Contortionistas is probably what the horses feel on their backs.
Abdullah, ohmigod, I still have his picture, given me by a photo guy, from a horse show at oh, never mind. Unfortunately, he's got an obvious spur gash, on his white coat, this is when Debbie was riding him. Guess that's why photographer didn't sell the pic. And Conrad got the ride, not long after. Hey, no comment, he was a class by himself, that horse... And in an article in Practical Horseman, Conrad mentioned he was a "difficult" personality. Debbie was, and I believe still is a pretty darn good rider.

holy shit! Gotta Go!
Blathering, yes I'm blathering.
Thanks again, TJM.
Keep 'em pissed off!!
To the horses.
Keep 'em happy, and comfortable.

ZTIG said...

Hotternhel said:
"Someone, not you, had stated that it is foolish to show a mare or gelding with a chain under the chin. My response is that you are a fool if you put full and 100% trust into an animal that outweighs you by such a great amount, in a class with other horses."

That would have been me, mares, geldings and foals to be exact. And yes I still think it is a sad state of affairs when a trainer cannot properly train a horse to be in a situation without a chain. I don't think you have ANY business training if you can't. I have handled young OTTB Stallions still coming down off the drugs, walking by mares and have had no need to use a chain. I do agree however that there are situations it is necessary. Emergency vet work or a young stallion that still needs to learn are acceptable situations. And since those occasions can happen you should teach your horse to accept the chain. However, if you can't train a horse to lead, stand quietly, walk, trot, etc without one... do the world a favor and get out of the business. We don't need more of that.

By the way you also stated you used it for looks, a chain is NOT attractive in any way shape or form. It shows only your lack of ability to train your horse.

I see plenty of people on endurance rides, at dressage shows, expos, etc who NEVER need to put a chain on their horses, stallions included. Why? Because they have been properly trained.
And if you need one for safety then do you use one while riding? Because we all know bits can slip and move and provide little control from the ground.

And NO ONE said ANYTHING about putting a horse down because it was poorly trained. Yet again you take things to an extreme.

PLEASE educate yourself! The DaVinci comments were ridiculous... according to you great minds like Xenophon, DaVinci, Plato, Aristotle, etc.. didn't know what they were talking about either... Please read Xenophon it may help you.

Last but not least I have a Baroque QH, she LOOKS Spanish with a touch of Arab. She is foundation bred and the only fault is a short neck and slight cow hocks... Please educate yourselves on breeds before making comments regarding breed origination. What is winning in the show ring today is NOT always what they are supposed to be. Which is why so many of us are annoyed by the organizations.

cattypex said...

I've posted this before, but a wise old horsewoman around here used to say "Everything behind the girth belongs to YOU. Everything in front of the girth belongs to THE HORSE."

CutNJump said...

Hotternhel- Wow you can't seem to hold your own around here. At least not for very long anyways...

Is that why you and Trojan Mouse got into it so? Is that why you felt the need to go to somewhere else and bash away?

Why not bring everyone else here and have a go at all of us? Even the odds if you will. After all- Trojan Mouse is the one who posted this blog and this particular topic, which seems to have struck a chord. At least with you...

Instead we all started talking about actual training. A concept which escapes your grasp and that of your other keyboard jockey 'psuedo friends'. Too many of us raising interesting and GOOD points, for you to deal with, so you turned tail and ran.

That's fine. You do that. Keep reading if you wish. You might learn something along the way. What's the worst that can happen? You change your mind and your horses benifit from it?

The rest of us and your horses can only hope for the best.

Carrie Giannandrea said...

CutNJump said:

"Instead we all started talking about actual training. A concept which escapes your grasp and that of your other keyboard jockey 'psuedo friends'. Too many of us raising interesting and GOOD points, for you to deal with, so you turned tail and ran."

Very well said!!

Training, slow and methodical, gentle training!! There are no substitutes for shortcuts! Otherwise you end up with having to resort to gimmicks, such as mouth jerking, spur jabbing and rude bits!

Sorry, can't support the WP industry and how it treats a horse. When they get rid of tail blocking and beaming, then maybe they will be heading in a more meaningful direction!

Carrie Giannandrea
Dances with Horses
Formula One Farms

Trojan Mouse said...

It just keeps getting better and better on the FHOTD forum where Dumbernhell and her little compatriots are. Now they've started a thread trying to bash Sis's horses.

http://fhotd64476.yuku.com/topic/14298

They're pissed at me, so they go after a family member and her child.
What a bunch of sorry asses. Even sorrier is the fact that none of them could even come close to riding as well as Amy does.

Assholes.

TJM

The Iron Squirrel said...

Oh for the love of god THANK YOU so much for pointing this shit out! People should be shot for some of the stuff they do to their horses- tying their heads up at night so they have to trot around the next day with their noses in the dirt! Yanking at their mouths with twisted wire bits! People SUCK. I just feel terrible for the horses. I wish there was something I could do to help...

Ponykins said...

I've shown for 40+ years. Like you, I have noticed a general decline in doing thing correctly. You'd think people and their horses would be getting better thru the years, not worse. To me, the proof is at Quarter Horse Congress (going on now). Other than in the equitation classes,I've never seen such awful riding. At that level, you'd expect the best of the best. So untrue. Who started that leaning back while riding western syle? Yikes. A large majority of the western pleasure photos in the stock horse breed journals picture people who look like they would be better suited to be lying in a recliner chair than on a horse. We sit and make fun of all the "puppy paws" and straight fingers in the hunter pleasure classes. The only classes we enjoy are the hunter over fences classes in which the horses at least seem to be going naturally and happy. And for Pete's Sake, those fake tails flopping around between their hind legs look rediculous. But the #1 horrid thing I see there are dead tails tucked so tight between their butt cheeks that they looked glued there. Honestly people, it looks horrid horrid horrid - nothing pretty about it. Looks like the world's tighest wedgie!

Pony_Rider said...

I am an Icelandic owner. The *only* thing I'm going to say in defense of the riding is that, when gaiting, Iceys *do* throw thier heads in the air naturally.

My fillies do it in the pasture all the time.

Aside from that, the nosebands are supposed to be in place to keep people from cranking thier mouths too hard, but in the top-ranked shows they're never worn properly. The nosebands are *supposed* to be under the bridle and tight enough to cushion the mouth should hard cranking be going on.

In the high stakes shows, you see again and again nosebands worn *over* the bridle, or incorporated into the bridle; just for looks.

I will say about the big riders: if they are in Iceland, they don't get a choice. Icelandic horses are all they have; importation of horses has been illegal for one thousand years.

If an Icelander is six feet tall, guess what; he's still riding an animal that in the U.S. is technically a pony.

AbbyAugustArabian said...

TJM,
Thank you for your response to my comformation questions. What is the angle at the gaskin suppose to be? What was the line at the throatlatch for?

Abby

Trojan Mouse said...

Abbey,

>What is the angle at the gaskin suppose to be?

It shows the angle from the gasking going into the hock. It tells you whether the horse can get his leg under him or not. Too upright and he's post legged, to slanted and he's camped out.


>What was the line at the throatlatch for?

Blocking off the end of the neck to show where the thickness does no decrease much from base of neck to top of neck.


TJM

AbbyAugustArabian said...

Thanks TJM.

I should already know this stuff, and I think I have heard about that before somewhere, but I guess it didn't sink in.

Abby

Nosnikta said...

"If you're riding like shit and still getting a good performance it's because your horse is compensating for your flaws"

I LOOOOVE THAT!!!!! OMG! That is SOOOOO true. Huge Pet Peeve of mine in our local show rings around here.

Bowleserised said...

I like what you're doing, and I'm only saying this because I'm a fact nerd about Black Beauty and you have a few things wrong:

1) Bearing reins were never abolished in the UK, they just became socially unacceptable.


2) The first animal rights legislation in Britain and the world, was passed in 1822. It was called Martin's Act, and it made it an offence punishable by fine or imprisonment to wantonly beat or behave cruelly for no reason to horses, donkeys, cows etc.

There were debates in the English parliament as early as 1800, and pamphletting and philosophical debate long before that. In 1806-7 the issue of the protection of animals was brought up in legal cases. The SPCA (later RSPCA) was founded in 1824.

Anna Sewell was part of a wider trend, boosted by the Enlightenment. You can find on-line a very early example of an anti-cruelty (and anti-fox hunt) "equine autobiography" from 1799, called Dick, The Memoirs of a Little Poney, Supposed to be Written by Himself (but authored by "Arabella Argus").

Black Beauty did have a huge influence worldwide though.

Darcys_arse said...

I do agree with you in that there are some serious issues in the equine industry in all disciplines and they do need to be addressed. Your opinions are valid but your style of writing disappointed me, they less than colourful language and using the blog as a way to "out" those who have said wrong takes away from your integrity and your right way of thinking many people are much braver at writing things down on the internet than actually saying them but do two wrongs really make a right? I believe if you change the way you write your opinion you will, first of all have many people agree with you and a lot more respect also