Lets take this blog to the next level

If you have a photo of crappy show riding, know of a jerkwad trainer or judge, or someone in the show world that is an abusive piece of shit then send the info to me. This blog is not anti-showing, it's anti-abuse. So there is no truth to the claims from the TWH, ASB, western pleasure and dressage zombies that I'm trying to shut showing down. Instead I'm trying to make showing more honest and to get abusive practices out of the showring! Email me at shameinthehorseshowring@gmail.com



I have a request for my readers: If you have successfully rehabbed a show horse, or gotten a rescue and taken it on to a show career then let me know, I'd love to feature you here!






Wednesday, August 5, 2009

Online learning: Updated Again

Online forums are a curse and a blessing. First they spread a lot of information quickly to a wide range of horse people. Second they spread a lot of information quickly to a wide range of horse people. I have seen some brilliant tips on horse forums, but I've also seen some of the most blatant stupidity imaginable. Since horse show people are found on just about every equine related forum out there it stands to reason that some of the information passed around an cause problems.

I’ve gotten a lot of feedback and got to visit some forums that made my eyebrows leap off my head with the rampant ignorance. It’s a wonder that some of these people’s horses survive a day, much less a lifetime of incompetent care.

I’ll list the top five good forums first. These forums actually provide good solid information and don’t cater to the hearts, flowers and unicorns crowd. They are for the horse, not for the ego.

1) Chronicle of the Horse

Geared mainly toward English but does have some western conversations. Good information on feeding, foot care, veterinary treatments and riding. Has a good reputation for getting “endangered horses” rescued.

2)Dr. Deb Bennett’s Equine Studies Forum

Absolutely the best place to learn about the mechanic’s of the horse. You will rarely see Western or English Pleasure or halter people posting here, because they can’t justify working their horses so young to Dr. Bennett. Also has great sections on bitting, handling and arena exercises.

3)Allbreed pedigree Forum

This is a great place to expand pedigree knowledge for all breeds. There are several prominent equine historians that participate and offer their knowledge for free. Being able to fill in the holes in a horse’s pedigree can help prevent genetic defects from being spread.

4) The Appaloosa Project

There is no equal to the equine color genetics knowledge that this forum provides. They have gone beyond looking at base colors and take you into learning about patterns, modifiers, genetic links to defects and other great stuff that anyone planning to breed horses needs to know.

5) Just Horsin

Normally I avoid anything to do with the pleasure horse industry. But I started reading this forum and was impressed that they were willing to crack down on BNT abuse and people that breed for horses that aren’t sound. Definitely more about riding and showing than the other forums and does have a lot of snark factor, but over all the equine advice is sound.


I got several emails about the collective dipshit equine forums and if I included them all here I would have a list the size of War and Peace. I’ve never seen such a morass of stupidity in my life!

In order to cut down the list to a reasonable size I had to set some criteria:
How harmful was the information being passed around?
How stupid were the majority of members?
How high was the whining level?
How pathetic were the justifications for doing shit wrong?
How fricking psycho I perceive the moderators to be?
How useless the existence of the forum is?
Even with this stringent culling method I still had to pick through quite a list, so I went for the ones that just pissed me off personally.

1)Horse Topia

Who the fuck are these people and what planet did they come from? Seriously do they have real horses or just Breyer Models and a crack pipe to make it all seem real? Why is anyone asking what to feed a baby mini after they already have the horse? Find that shit out before you get a baby. What is with asking if you should breed your grade pintawalkaloosian? Are you fucking kidding? Oh and let’s not forget that the stallion must be either grade too, or a registered horse with a proven genetic defect. My eyes almost bled from the color genetics thread. If these stupid fucks actually succeed in crossing those horses they are going to get something lime green and plaid. Unless you’re into pre-death penance or just a masochist avoid this place. Rating 5 Horse Apples

2)Baywind Farm Horse Forum

Let’s just say I could blog for a year and a day just on the crappy photos I saw posted here. The yellow lines of dooms would look like that big monkey drawing on the plateau in Peru. I could start my own version of the Nazca Lines all over their ass.

I added this photo because the forum evidently didn't understand what lining a photo means. Yellow is bad, blue is correct.
Can these people not ride? Is it something in the water? It’s obvious the moderator has her panties in a twist because she’s never going to be anything but some backyard local show fixture, but seriously, when did hosting a forum mean that zero common sense was required? This forum alone would make me avoid buying anything from Baywind Farm. It's like if Exxon used pictures of the Exxon Valdez spewing oil in order to sell gas shares.
One thing I saw here that pissed me off was the mention of this blog, but given under another person’s name. Hey you stupid fucks, this is my blog, my name is all over it and I don’t appreciate you giving my hard work to someone else just because you’re too stupid or lazy to read the big words posted here. I think most of us here appreciate humor and sarcasm, but people trying to be funny and snarky, while just coming off lame and ignorant, give me a pain in my ass. Rating 4 ¾ Horse Apples


3)Lil Beginnings Miniature Horse Forum

There literally are no words to describe this bunch, although complete stupid fucks would work in a pinch. Breeding and getting dwarves is just part of the business, right? Dwarf Threads, You can't post replies on the dwarfism threads. They don't want discussion, they want their "experts" to have the last words. Dwarves are to be accepted and expected. Promoting smaller horses over quality horses is okay. And let's not forget that breeding for color as the most important trait is just sooooo the right thing to do. Having photos of some tiny mini hauling around a fricking moose in a flowered dress is just wrong. Get a bigger horse or carry the mini. He is not supposed to be hauling around twice his weight. And the feeding misinformation! How there is a single mini out there that isn’t foundered I’ll never know. This is another group that sets the whine level to ten and feels that others “owe” them respect instead of them earning it. They also can’t read for shit. They assigned my blog to another author because my fucking name on the front page is just a joke, right? I type my fingers to the bone so these no-reading asswipes can give someone else credit? I don’t think so! It’s obvious that this bunch sits around all day with nothing better to do but post about their whines, grips and frustrations, while denouncing anyone that offers a differing opinion. Their attack on a newbie for telling them something they did was fucked up was priceless. Driving people out of the horse industry is just what we need to be doing. Rating 4 ½ Horses Apples


4)Free Speech Horse Forum

I hate to add this one, because I really enjoy the parent blog. However, the desire to be associated with a straight talking, controversial blog has attracted a myriad of dumbasses, dweebs and dorks. I've traveled over there in the past and a few of the uppity bad asses tried to get tough until they found themselves featured here and at that point they whined, pulled their hair and threatened me. Big whoop! A forum member sent me nasty emails. Like I’ve never dealt with that before. They also seem inclined to bite the hand that feeds them and criticize the creator of the forum, although never to her face on her blog. I hate chickenshits. I really hate ignorant chickenshits. Despite the attachment to a blog that denounces irresponsible breeding there seems to be a plethora of morons on here asking if they should breed their grade mare to Joe Bob’s grade stallion. I don’t get it. Rating 4 Horse Apples.

5)Horse Dopia

The name says it all. This place is populated by the people too dumb to make it on the Horse Topia or Free Speech forums. Scary thought huh? Believe me, that isn’t teen spirit you’re smelling. This place should almost be mandatory as a test in order to own a horse. If you get accepted to post here then you don’t get to have one! Only when you’re regarded as too smart to be on this forum can you again apply to get a horse, and only then if you’re not a member of any of the other top five piece of shit forums. Rating 3 Horse Apples.


Ironically, when you read the above bad forums you will almost always find a thread bitching about the Fugly Horse forum, or this one, or any other forum where the bullshit gets called out and the "pretty princess pony" people get told to get their heads out of their asses and back into reality. I don't know about Fugs, but I consider it an honor when the dipshits hate this blog, it means I'm doing something right. And I also love it when I google search their sites and this blog pops up as the first listing under their name. That way people can get the information on the stupid aspects of these sites first, before wading into the cesspools of stupidity they share.

I also like this blog Horse Common Sense by Sue, that features some of the dumbest damn forum posts I’ve ever read. If horses really had access to computers, and could read the stupid shit their owners think, they would all gather together and run off the edge of the Grand Canyon, with the gaited horses leading the way.

From the stat tacker it's easy to see the Baywind and Miniature Horse Forum have found my blog and are having a fit. Too fricking bad. If they'd shown any sense in the first place and not posted bullshit about who owns this blog, as well as the stupid posts that endanger horses then they wouldn't be here.

Leaving threads up that people can find when they search the name of this blog just leads me right to the places where the stupidity festers in the horse world. It's easy to see why I got so many emails about these forums as being bad places.



T Jean Maus, blog owner

178 comments:

jennybean79 said...

I love www.abovelevel.com

It's a Morgan horse blog/forum - it's full of great information and the people on the board are very respectful and helpful to all.

GoLightly said...

There are on-line forums??

;)

Cut-N-Jump said...

Is this your attempt to get us to regain focus? lolz

I guess you had to do something, right?

Trojan Mouse said...

CNJ,

Nope, this is part of a mission to eradicate stupidity from the equine web.

I've read a few forums lately that have convinced me that single cell life forms have figured out how to work a keyboard.

I've also discovered that regional and breed specific forums are the worst for incapsulating stupidity.
I'm testing this theory by asking for input from readers.


T Jean Maus

katphoti said...

I agree, TJM--for some reason, breed-specific ones are the worst. I have to find the names of the ones I'll send you, but mostly, I stay away from forums. I like blogs instead!

horsndogluvr said...

The forums at Saddlebred Rescue seem to have more intelligent people than most.

The other forum I hang out at with some frequency is the Free Speech Horse Forums. It seems to swing back and forth between posts from real horse people and teenagers who think they know everything. It can get funny, sometimes.

I don't hang out at too many others, because I am trying to change my level of criticism from snarky to helpful. (I said "trying," dangit!) Way too many cretins - I mean ignoramuses.

Looking for my rusty halo, Ruthie

Cut-N-Jump said...

TJM- Good Luck!

Seriously, the deluded are among us. They seem to be everywhere. There's always one in every crowd.

BTW- my first comment, I was kidding because of the turn the last thread took.

photogchic said...

Not a forum reader. Am I missing out?

cattypex said...

WHY is it that the breed people can't get discipline-specific stuff right?

AQHA just MURDERED Western Pleasure & HUS.

Arabs have historically done weird things with dressage.

TWH... don't get me started.

Appaloosas just ruined their OWN breed while everyone else stood by and groaned.

etc. etc. etc.

I dunno, I guess that, like dogs, newbies start out in love with a particular breed. And some get mired down in it and just take all the dumb stuff to the nth degree?

CoTH forums are useful and fun.

Fugly is good when it's about how to rehab a horse, etc.

Horsetopia is too scary for me to even sort out the good stuff.

Dr. Deb Bennett has the absolute best info on equine mechanics EVER.

Mikolaj said...

I was disgusted with a lot of forums long ago. The vast majority of the public ones are teeming with snot faced teenage hunter/jumper brats who figure if you don't show, you're open to be insulted in every way possible.

Luckily, I stumbled across the most perfect forum around over going on 3 years ago now. It is the most amazing family. It's not as "happening" as many forums, but it's cozy and quiet and a place where "everybody knows your name". From accomplished show jumpers, to Western Pleasure, to the backyard misfits, we all love and appreciate each other. The only thing that will get you ganged up on is coming in with a bad or holier then thou attitude.

HorseLover Forums

I've also started visiting The Horse Forum. It's another nifty place, not as close knit, but a lot more activity and again, very little in the queen shit department. A huge mix of many disciplines, you get the occasional issue, but the mods are on top of it and seem relatively impartial. You get a polite reminder to keep it civil and then the post gets locked if people can't abide.

The Horse Forum

I like these place precisely for their wide range of disciplines and interests. I refuse to go to breed or discipline dominated forums anymore, the bullshit is damn near palpatable at times.

Golden Girl said...

I gotta say that every spring thru early summer I am hooked on the Mare Stare site. I first started watching mares foal out on the Freeland's Miniature horse sight so I could actually see and learn how to deliver a mini foal.
Then I changed over to Mare Stare because I loved watching all breeds of mares foal, and also visiting the web sites of the farms they were from!

Mare Stare's Chat rooms full of nice people, and are espically fun during a foaling. The forum is great for zeroing in on a close mare, getting up dates on new foals and general horsey chat! Just a good general family type atmosphere :)

Vectormom said...

OMG!!! I tried to go back and find it but I came across a website that was austrailian and it was about obtaining a horse show judging certificate completely ONLINE!! Oh I wish I could find it now. The ext was .au and it was hysterical!!! Goin' back to look for it. So ironic I was catchin' up on your blog on the same day I had come across it. <---stomp, stomp ... marching off to find it....

Cut-N-Jump said...

TJ- you will have mail shortly. Gotta love it!

GoLightly said...

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!


Standing Ovation!!!

Thanks, sorry.
14th.

katphoti said...

DAMMIT! I didn't get my entries in on time. Oh well.

Here's two to avoid:

www.walkinghorsechat.com
Now you have to pay on WHC, so don't bother trying to go on there. But the talk about how to "fix" (aka sore) your horse is RAMPANT. Anyone who doesn't believe soring goes on should go on there. I get posts from insiders who are lurking under annonymous names, and they are horrible, just horrible.

www.trot.org
Saddlebred forum, but they have stuff about TWHs too. The stuff they post about TWHs is totally incorrect and stupid. Mostly the ASB owners on this forum use the TWHs as their scapegoats--citing that soring is still done, and therefore it's okay for us to torture our breed. *SIGH*

So, overall, thanks for the heads up, TJM. I will join some of the good ones!

katphoti said...

TJM said: "If horses really had access to computers, and could read the stupid shit their owners think, they would all gather together and run off the edge of the Grand Canyon, with the gaited horses leading the way."

AMEN SISTER! Me being a gaited horse owner and all that, too. Sometimes I truly believe the calm temperament is actually a deteriment to the breed.

Serenafix said...

Jean,

I have to agree with you about the Baywnds group. I live near some of these people and they are idiots. Talk about a cult mentality. They gang up on anyone that doesn' agree with their "party-line".

I visited horsetopia once and left in disgust. But overall I think the regional or discipline oriented forums cause more harm than good. People get too locked up in their own groups and refuse to try anything new, or listen to peope from the outside of their group. I swear the Baywinds people would end up arguing with Reiner Klimke if he showed up.


Serena

Sara said...

Haha, so I'm guessing that Baywinds and the miniature horse group didn't make this list solely because one of the readers here is a friend and follower of yours, and she was "attacked" on both of those forums? Hmmmm...sounds both fishy and coincidental to me....

MiniLuver said...

I think us mini owners have a harder time than regular sized horse owners. For some reason this breed attracts the starry eyed and unprepared like no other breed. A lot of middle aged women decide that minis need to be their first horse and get into it completely unprepared. All it takes is a website and a forum and you can surround yourself with other less informed syncophants and pretend to be a "guru".
There are good mini people and we have to struggle against the people that ignore defects and breed for color. The breeders with integrity try to change the public image of minis and it's a hard fight when so many are owned and shown by idiots. The forum you posted is a hornets nest of malcontent and back scratching. Be glad they only got your name wrong and didn't just make up blatant lies about you, like they do about everyone else that makes them mad. I quit reading and posting there a year ago because I was so sick of their shit.

MiniLuver said...

And I forgot to add: Most of the crappy forums will resort to gang ups to drive people out, but if that doesn't work they ban people so they can't reply to any slander posted about themselves, or defend themselves. I got in an argument with another mini breeder over the dwarf issue and got banned for saying she had no right to continue breeding a mare that had produced a majority of dwarfs. Because banning me obviously makes the dwarf issue go away.

Tuffy Horse said...

Don't feel special MiniLuver, I got banned for asking people not to use my copyrighted articles. I got threatened by a lawyer that then urged her client to break the law, which is a whole n'other issue. Don't you love it when thieves gete all indignant because you don't want them stealing your stuff?
And I get accused of owning this blog. I WISH I owned this blog, it was a great idea, but alas Jean beat me to it. Between this blog, Mr. Rotten's, Fugly and CNJ's horse grooming you'd think the horse world could get a clue.


Sadly I have got to quit writing serious stuff ( and trying to make a living) and get back to writing about Tuffy. I'm sure he's mad at me for not updating his blog, which is the ONLY blog I own.

Tracy M

Trojan Mouse said...

Sorry Tuffy, but this is my blog and my idea, just like the politics lists are mine too. You'll just have to deal with the too little, too late.
I've gotten more emails about the mini industry, evidently things have struck a nerve. I think I'll do an expose on it next. People need to know of the abuses going on there.


T Jean Maus

Cut-N-Jump said...

Tuffy- Thanks for the Kudo's on both mine and my husbands blogs. Hopefully we can make a positive difference!

He did have to ask one poster to leave on Neighborhood because of the tone and negativity that follows her. This is the third one that I know of that she has been asked to leave.


MiniLuvr- Dear gawd I know what you mean! There's a woman near Katphoti's neck of the cactus with a mini stallion. $75 breeding fee. He never has beaten my pony stallion in halter at the local shows. Why? Her little guys legs are so crooked they make a drag queen look straight! Yet she drags him out to every show and brags about his wins- when he's the only horse in the class...

And before anyone gets hopeful enough to think his ad gained no interest- he has covered one mare that I know of. Of course the pictures showed Kyoot! but nothing of legs, angles or you know, the pertinent information about conformation.

Trojan Mouse said...

CNJ:
>Yet she drags him out to every show and brags about his wins- when he's the only horse in the class...


I homnestly think the show industry needs to come up with "degrees of color" for ribbons.
If you get first because you're the only horse in the class then the ribbon should be such a light blue it's almost white. If you get first out of two horses it can be sky blue. First out of three it can be denim blue. First out of five you finally get a royal blue ribbon.
I'm so tired of POD horses at shows taking win pictures with ten blue ribbons when they were the only horse in the class. Hell the ApHC has National Champions in some event that only beat one other horse. So they get a medallion and huge ribbon. It's disgraceful.

T Jean Maus

cattypex said...

Ugh... That overbent Baywimds horse!! Actually people should worry less about where the horse's nose is, and concentrate on whether he's engaged, sound and truly carrying himself. Again, read george Morris' article.

As for the crapslingers and general craziness .. To paraphrase Chris Rock, how come horsepeople always be trippin'?

Thanksvfor the links and the warnings!!

Cut-N-Jump said...

TJM- In our house those are called exhibition classes. You aren't there to do anything else but show off while everyone watches---> YOU. If I am the only horse in the class, I will scratch the class and ask for a schooling round in another, if that's what the horse needs.


I agree there should be some sort of code for winning with X number of horses in the class. Maybe that goes along for all placings too?

One of our old clients had a horse who she touted "He has a show record!" Yes, he does. Not an impressive one, but a show record nonetheless.

It consisted of 3rd out of 4, 4th of 4 and about 6 'A' shows with similar results. I don't know the circumstances, who the rider was, who the trainer or barn were, so I can't honestly comment any further than to say, depending on the horse, his mental capabilities and such, it could be improved or that could be as good as it gets for him.

WashingtonBay said...

Well congratulations you made a young teenage girl cry, until we reminded her that she's fabulous, and the mean-spirited opinion of other people she doesn't even know, doesn't mean squat.

She's feeling better now, I think. One hell of a noble mission you're on here, picking on kids and their beloved ponies. What's next, poking grannies with sticks?

Thank you for the traffic to our little forum today though! :~) For the most part, we're having a lot of fun with it. We have fun with most things.

We don't mind the nice new members we've gotten from it, and I'd like to extend a welcome to any others who like to have fun and actually help and support other horse lovers. (IOW, this kind of crap is not allowed)

Good day to the rest of you!
WashingtonBay
www.baywindfarm.com

Prissy18 said...

O wow you have no shame do you? Mean soul mabey.... Wait... no you would have to have a soul to do that! I think WB should have said so much more. And if you so good post some pics of yourself and we'll see if people rip you apart like you do them. As for using one of Baywind members pictured your a bitch just for that. For the record you had that girl crying. You dont even know her. She took her pics down because of you. Just because you wanted revenge you bashed my FAVORITE forum. BAYWIND IS AMAZING AND WE WECOME ANYONE TO SEE THAT FOR THEM SELVES! Who is the girl who writes this to bash anyone? Exactly.
Enjoy your day everyone on here.

-Prissy18

Trojan Mouse said...

Washington Bay,

I don't recall your group being too upset when they made my niece cry after she read your horrible words about her. So I fail to have sympathy when you come here spewing your hypocrisy.
I also seem to recall your group just laughing their heads off about being such smug thieves that they'd condone theft of what was a gift to a young girl.
A few of your forum members even tracked my niece down and sent her nasty emails about her mom and what a liar she was to write the poem about her. I'm betting they didn't pop up and admit that did they? Or how people pull up your forum and send her posts from it, calling her names because the poem is not for public use.Your group never stopped to consider that when you were ragging the author of the poem and my blog that you were also saying public words about a very nice young girl, that was given a gift by her mother, which a bunch of unethical people stole and blasted all over.

So keep your hypocrisy to yourself. We don't buy it here.


T Jean Maus

Tuffy Horse said...

Jean,

They never did consider my daughter's feelings. One Baywind person even tracked her down on a kids' horse group and ragged her through several emails. It was disgusting. A few of the people from the miniature horse forum did do, and sent her nasty emails about the photos of her riding on our website. We've still got the emails and it's appalling what they did.

So I agree, the hypocrisy level from the groups that condone stealing from other horse people is just ridiculous.


Tracy M.

WashingtonBay said...

It didn't happen. Not by anyone I know. Mine is not the forum that encourages anyone to track down kids, badmouth them, or harass them. That would be you... and your friends.

What you ladies have is a paranoid streak and a vivid imagination.

Cassy W said...

Looks like Washington Bay and Prissy are invoking the "everyone's a mean nasty bitch but us" rule of internet etiquette.

WB, I went and read the Baywind forum and your flock of idiots was dead wrong to treat the author of the poem the way you did. And if any one of you really did contact her daughter then double shame on you. I doubt your group would have the balls to admit doing it, because it would prove just how low you are. I hope you do leave the threads up, since they show outsiders exactly how nasty your group is.
People don't have to be nice when someone else steals things from them. I don't condone what Jean does with the photos, in fact sometimes it pisses me off, but at least she has removed stuff when requested, and from the photo you can't even tell it's a child, nor does it have any identifying marks on it. The lines cover up most of the rider's identity. Which is very different from posting someone's copyrighted work and then blasting them as the "crazy lady" when they want it removed.

If you reprinted something from one of my books I'd have your ass so fast I'd own Baywinds and turn it into a refuge for the internet incapable.


Cassandra W

WashingtonBay said...

For the record, no one condoned "theft" we were all too happy to credit, and then delete the silly 'ode', when you asked, and anyone who reads the thread you linked to on your page can see what took place. It's all still there.

We had fun with your illogical ranting and baseless accusations about it, that's true. :~)

Good night to you both...

MiniLuver said...

Cassy,

Looks like WB is already proving your point. Full denial mode. "We'd never steal, harass a child and mistreat a soul", but an entire thread shows the venom unleashed at the child and her mother. Some of the things are just awful. I can understand Tuffy's frustration.

I also don't doubt that some of the mini people attacked her too. After how they treated me I know they are capable of it.
Looks like WB and Prissy are proving why Trojan listed their forum as one of the worst. I agree. I wouldn't join it, not without kevlar and a guard dog.

Tuffy Horse said...

Washington Bay,
I don't have to make stuff up. Your forum and the comments on it PROVE how nasty your group was to me and my daughter. It's out there in internet land in perpetuity. Now when people search for my article they'll pull up my page, this blog and the Baywind's Forum and see how it all played out. Perhaps I should add a section to my Copytight Thieves page and post the emails from the members of the two forums. The one where the BWF woman says my daughter is probably a crazy b*tch just like her mother, and that the poem wasn't really written about her is really interesting. Of course, there are posts on your forum that mimic this language almost to the letter, so why bother denying it?
Looks like you don't know your members as well as you think. But then again with the example you set why should they be any different?

Tracy M

katphoti said...

WB, you are HILARIOUS! With that kind of nasty attitude, you TOTALLY just turned me off to EVER checking out your forum. You did a GREAT job of losing some potential customers!

Oh, and how about you stop playing on forums and the Internet and learn how to teach children HOW TO RIDE???

Tuffy Horse said...

Washington Bay,

You didn't delete it until you all acted like idiots. You tried every way possible to justify the use of my work and when you deleted it you included this snarky commentary about why you were finally deleting it. It was immature and stupid on your part. I asked for a simple deletion of the piece and if you had done it when first asked the matter would have ended. Instead your group harrassed me through 6 pages of posts, as anyone can see, and then you BANNED me so I could not respond to any further accusations. And once you got over snickering about that some of your members started ragging my daughter via email. I've got the emails and the server log.
So don't act all indignant and surprised when someone else's points out what a bunch of hypocrites you all are. I was wronged first by the people that stole my work. I have a right to protect my property.

I'll also point out that respectable forums, such as COTH, deleted it when first requested, because they respect an author's rights. This shows that they are serious forums dedicated to being fair to everyone, and not a bunch of harping wolf packers that gang up on anyone that isn't in their clique.



Tracy M

JohnieRotten said...

So this crap happens here too!

Wow!

katphoti said...

Oh, Tuffy, I've been meaning to tell you this forever. I hope this makes you feel better.

I sent your story about your daughter off to some horsey friends, and several of them wrote back to me and told me how wonderful it was and how proud I must be of MY daughter! The worst part was I had (what I thought was) clearly stated that the story was not mine! So I told them I didn't write it, just was passing it along. I'm glad I know who the author is now. I don't even have kids, nor am I very fond of them, and that story made ME cry. It was beautiful--great job!

katphoti said...

To all:

I had another row with the ASB people here in AZ. I met MFT people out here who actually KNOW WHAT A FOX TROT REALLY IS (SHOCK!!!!!) and invited them to the ASB show that has Open Gaited Breed classes. (They were at the new QC arena, for those of you who know this area.) They were promptly told by an ASB show rep that they weren't allowed in the classes--only the breeds listed. I sent an email voicing my concern, and was very polite about it. I received backlash from both the ASB club AND the only other TWH trainer out here who I used to have respect for. But she's also an ASB trainer, so it doesn't surprise me that she has that attitude. She told me that I should have known that information was wrong and I should check the IJA rulebook and the facts before writing to the ASB. The ASB people were very vehament that they NEVER said that to him--only that they had to bring it up to the board, and why would they EVER say such a thing? However, because of my concern, they called the guy back and told him he IS allowed to show in the OGB classes and that there was a misunderstanding. So I effectly brought them more horses, gave them free advertising, AND made them more money, and yet I still got berated for it. I am so mad I could spit.

So, anyone in AZ want to start a WP and gaitedhorse show circuit that DOES NOT involve ASBs? And that I don't have to run so I can actually show in it and my students can as well? Anyone? *Sounds of crickets chirping*

katphoti said...

Miniluvr said:

"For some reason this breed attracts the starry eyed and unprepared like no other breed. A lot of middle aged women decide that minis need to be their first horse and get into it completely unprepared."

OMG, you are SO right. We have the same problem with gaited horses. First time horse owners galore because they "don't have to learn how to ride--they can just sit there!" Then I had a mini owner out here who's really good with hers tell me that she sees people go to minis when they get frustrated when their gaited horses won't gait and they're told it's because they need to learn how to ride. I feel so sorry for you and your breed! But I love a good lookin' mini--my friend has one that is child safe and he is the most wonderful boy on the planet!

FromTheCenterOfTheRing said...

Tuffy,

I'm sorry you had to take your amazing poem down. It was truly inspiring. WB is calling it silly now, but I read the comments made by people before you requested it's removal and they loved it. So it must have become "silly" after you told them they coudn't steal it. Funny how things work out that way. Makes them look even more pathetic.
I'm sorry they decided to attack your daughter. Talk about low. At least she has you and the fine upbringing you gave her. If she is like the girl in your poem then she is a truly remarkable young woman.

I'll make a point not to do business with people on either of those forums. If they think stealing is okay, and harrassing children is acceptable then I don't want to have anything to do with them. I'm noting their farm names and such for future reference.


If you can ever safely repost your poem please let us know. We loved it and would like to see it up again.

MiniLuver said...

Katphoti,

Minis seem to get these worst. I will never forget the horror of reading about the woman, new mini owner, that thought it was cute to include her mini in one Christmas dinner and coliced the poor thing so it ended up dying the next day. Talk about a hard, painful lesson, that could have been avoided.

I started reading internet forums about 5 years ago, and after some of the things Ive seen posted it's a wonder there are any live horses left. The mini forum sometimes resembles the "how to kill your horse early" forum.

Cut-N-Jump said...

TJM- you shall have mail shortly after I post this.

WB- does this child also cry at a show if the judge does not pin her? Life is not always fair. By someone pointing out your mistakes, then you become aware of them and can fix them. The riding is being critiqued for what it is, as displayed in the photo. If anyone should be crying, it should be her coach and/or the horses trainer.

Take this as you will, but good riding in even it's most basic form, includes a few straight lines. One being the riders head, shoulder, hip and heel. Another being from the riders elbow to the bit. The third, the horses head on or even slightly ahead or behind the verticle. When the rider is in proper position, it makes the horses job to carry and balance them, far easier. Just like a balanced horse in self carriage is easy to ride.

The girl in the photo, should not be ashamed as she is only a model or example of what she has been taught. Right or wrong, that's how she learned. Plenty of us learn the wrong way to do things, which can make overcoming what is now habit, sometimes difficult.

Sure you can be pissed. If she is your client and just found out her parents have been paying you and she's not learning the right way to do things- they may soon go looking for a new trainer. I can't blame them. It's no different than being misled in any other aspect of life.

Good luck to you and your group. You guys sound like a bunch of real 'winners'.

WashingtonBay said...

I'll make a point not to do business with people on either of those forums. If they think stealing is okay, and harrassing children is acceptable then I don't want to have anything to do with them. I'm noting their farm names and such for future reference.

There is no "business" and no "farm". Just a forum, for fun and camaraderie.

And no one who thinks harassing anyone or stealing is OK or condoned by me. My record is clear on that here and on the forum.

I don't believe Tracy or her sister for a minute about any harassment by our members. It's just more in a long line of bafflecrap and illogical rants on the subject.

The whole thread is here: I've deleted nothing, except the essay:
http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8779

Cut-N-Jump said...

Tuffy Horse- you have mail too.

JohnieRotten said...

I am going to agree with Kahpoti and CNJ

Teach the kid to do things right and get over yourself WB.

WashingtonBay said...

The girl in the photo, should not be ashamed

She isn't.

She's not my student. She's from the UK, half a world away from me. I don't have students. She's just a young friend on the forum in one of hundreds of pictures and videos, moments in time that get shared by our members. They're a pretty special pair actually. You can't see that part through the lines.

JackieB said...

Tracy,

I'm sorry you had a bad experience over at our forum (Baywind). Really, I am. But please understand that this was the first thing we heard from you about your beautiful essay -

"This article was stolen from my website and reposted here without my permission. It's a disgrace that an article about teaching values to children compels people to steal it so they can claim authorship and get second hand back patting.

Tracy M"

And then if you look at the posts right afterwards, you will see people saying that there was no intention of taking anything of yours, and WB immediately added your name as the author and put a link to your site.

The original poster then pointed out where she got your essay (not your site) and also said there was no intention of taking it without permission.

I understand your frustration at having your work go viral, but please try to also consider what it feels like to be accused of stealing something when it's not true. That's what caused us to get worked up. Does that make sense?

I can still remember an experience from almost 40 years ago where I found an object in the street (a tape measure) and collected it to take home when the homeowner came
out screaming at me that I was stealing it. I felt terrible (and indignant) because I would never have stolen it. That's all that happened with your essay. The poster just didn't know.

I've spent almost my entire career in publishing and I absolutely respect intellectual property. But when someone steps on our copyright, the first thing we say is "We're glad you find that useful, but are you aware of the fact that we own this writing?" Then we offer to either license it to them or ask them to stop using our property.

I even worked securing permissions for quite some time and would sometimes become frustrated because it can be quite difficult to even determine for sure who owns something once it gets on the Internet.

Anyway, you wrote a beautiful essay that has touched so many hearts by articulating the tremendous life lessons that we can learn from horses. I'm sorry that the experience of having others "discover" your work has become a source of frustration for you. It's your property and you certainly deserve credit for it.

All Best Wishes,

JackieB (Tom)

Cut-N-Jump said...

Miniluvr- I think what drives people to minis is a number of things.

-They are small and can't/won't hurt me.

-If I can't get them to do something, they are small, I can make them.

-If it is kyoot or a pretty kolor, conformation, temperment and genetic flaws are meaningless.

-They are little, how hard can it be to breed them?

-Genetic flaws resulting in death just mean we are out the money for breeding fees that year and the $100 we think we would have made selling the resulting unhandled, unmanagable foal.

-Its the size of a large dog, it needs nothing more than our backyard to eat, no special hoofcare or anything a normal sized horse does.


Yes we had a mini for a while. We just put him down a couple of weeks ago. He was a wonderful little guy and everyone who seen, met or knew our little Dooley, suddenly wanted one or had to have one. Because, well, they are All just the same sweet natured creatures as the one you met. Right?

Tuffy Horse said...

Washington Bay,

You can deny all you want, but the posts show how insane your group got and you can't deny that nasty things were said about my daughter. It's easy to connect the dots. And for the record, even though I don't know anyone on your forum, I know that you have at least two members/readers who have ISPs from Florida, and the only way I'd know that is if they sent emails. I also know where other members are from because I have the ISPs from their emails.

JackieB (Tom)

I explained my reasons and got heckled for it. After a year and a half of having it stolen I'm done being nice. The first request for removal was ignored. The second request was ignored. Then the shit started and the "we're so justified" crap started. No author should have to go through that stuff.

And seriously, we're not lower life forms. Anyone who read the poem knew SOMEONE had created it. Words don't write themselves. Anyone that has ever opened a book knows what a copyright statement is. People GET that you can't repost articles out of magazines, or steal things from Dr. Deb Bennett's site. So I find it ludicrous when people claim that they had no idea my article was copyrighted. Give me a break, this isn't the days of cave drawings. And Washington Bay deliberately exacerbated the situation when she started posting her snarky crap. She couldn't act like a good moderator and apologize and delete the article, no, she has to be a jerk and prove just how much power she had in her little world to keep my daughter's poem on her forum, because she wanted too.

I've met some great people that appreciate my work and to the letter the ones in the pbulishing world understand how petty people will get when you tell them they can't use something for free. The jerks stealing it never stop to think that the money I've got from allowing magazines to print it goes in my daughter's college fund, or that all money from my online store goes in there too. Nope, they'd rather steal from a child then do the right thing.

Tracy M

Trojan Mouse said...

Washinton Bay,

So I suppose you're going to deny that this little tidbit came from someone on your forum too.

Compact Headers
"This blog is owned by T Jean Maus and cannot be reproduced without permission."

This blog doesn't belong to you!
I shall use it as I wish and where I wish - parts of it or whole... You think I cannot put my name all over it? Just watch me!
What makes you think you can steal pictures that do not belong to you???

Naji Naji (probably an alternate ID)

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So you're going to claim you have no members on G-mail? Come on, I found a few just looking at member sigs and farm sites.
Now why aren't I surprised that someone would come here from your forum and threaten to steal my blog and post it somewhere else?

Looks like it's a habit of the Baywind's group.

And don't try to bullshit us about getting a lot of new members. I checked the member count on your forum before I made my post and it hasn't gone up more than a few people.

T Jean Maus.

WashingtonBay said...

So you're going to claim you have no members on G-mail?

Why would I claim that? gmail's pretty common.

Now why aren't I surprised that someone would come here from your forum and threaten to steal my blog and post it somewhere else?

It didn't sound like a threat to me, as much as a rhetorical question, to point out your apparent hypocrisy over items 'found' on the internet.

Looks like it's a habit of the Baywind's group.

May be one of ours, I don't know. I don't recognize the name. What I said is that I don't believe they would go after anyone's daughter, not that they won't fight for themselves as they want.

And don't try to bullshit us about getting a lot of new members. I checked the member count on your forum before I made my post and it hasn't gone up more than a few people.

We've gotten a few new members. We're not a big forum. We don't get new members all the time. :~)

I'm not sure how many in your readership are really compatible with us, but maybe a few are. :~)

It's OK, I don't expect you to be accurate any more, not much you've said about us is true so far. At least you got the name right, people can go look for themselves.

Good day :~)

GoLightly said...

"The poster just didn't know. "

Aaaah, ignorance.

AKA copy/pasting only the important parts, and skipping the actual author's name..
That is disgraceful.

I sent you a forum name, Tuffy, of someone doing the same darn thing, on your blog.
I did request that they credit you, but I don't know if they ever did..

I'm so sorry you had to take it down.
A brilliant piece of writing, that deserves credit to the author, EVERY single time.

FatAppy said...

Here's what I don't get:

You guys are extremely upset because people are taking Tracy's poem and sharing it with others via forum, e-mail, whatever. They're not bashing it, not making money off of it, they're just sharing it with others because they liked it.

Yet you find it completely fair to be taking people's pictures off of forums/websites without permission to post them publicly and make fun/critique them?

What's up with that?

fireantranch said...

Okay, now this is absolutely scary. I popped over to that Mini Forum....there's somebody breeding Mini Gypsy Vanners. Gypsy Horses are bad enough, but minis?????????

GoLightly said...

BECAUSE THE AUTHOR IS NOT CREDITED.
jeez. Go buy a vowel or something.

And I do hate to be the one to break this to you, Fat Appy, but publicly posted pictures are indeed public domain.

IF the photos were copyrighted?
Different story altogether.

Trojan's TRYING to stop the crappy riding that's rampant.
So many bad riders and miserable horses out there..

Go learn something, like how to get your horse to lose weight.

"not making money off of it"
How do you KNOW that??
What's to stop anyone from making $$ by taking credit for it??

FatAppy said...

The woman who posted Tracy's poem was trying to show everyone else what a terrific piece of writing it was.. No harm intended. Even after it was credited, then removed, and apologies were given, Tracy continued to bash us and threatened to have us put on FHOTD and this blog.

FatAppy said...

I can't say that people from other forums aren't trying to make money off of her poem, however the members on Baywind are not the type to take credit for what isn't theirs. We have never had any from our forum claim what isn't theirs as theirs.

Kzeiger81190 said...

LOL! Not everyone WANTS to be some sort of fucking Olympic rider. Some are content with having just 'decent' riding skills.

We're mainly TRAIL RIDERS at the forum. Last time I checked, we didn't need professional lessons to ride outside the arena.

The bitch of this blog took ONE photo that didn't meet 'her standards' and ripped it to shreds, what if it was a fluke photo? And what does it matter?

I like that if this were in person, you wouldn't be nearly as nasty because you don't have your internet entourage to back you up.

*sigh* I wish I could be so much more disrespectful..but I respect WB and the forum she provides for me.

GoLightly said...

sigh.

Always denying that any issues exist..
Taking away from the actual point of the post.
Typical.

Even trail riders need to learn how to ride well. Or at least, improve their skills.
FOR THEIR HORSE'S COMFORT.
I give two shites about hurt feelings, and I'll happily, and kindly, critique any rider. Anywhere.
Including me.
The issue is not whether you love your horse. It's whether he's as happy as he can possibly be.

The erroneous information and back-patting for a job poorly done?
Bad.
FOR THE HORSE.

Cut-N-Jump said...

FTCOTR-
>> I'll make a point not to do business with people on either of those forums. If they think stealing is okay, and harrassing children is acceptable then I don't want to have anything to do with them. I'm noting their farm names and such for future reference.

WB- There is no "business" and no "farm". Just a forum, for fun and camaraderie.


So if I am reading this correctly, none of you have a business or farms? Correct me if I am wrong, please.


My own words-
The girl in the photo, should not be ashamed

WB- She's not my student. She's from the UK, half a world away from me. I don't have students.


I am not trying to argue- rather understand. If none of you have farms or businesses and you personally don’t have any students, it sounds as if there may be some room to doubt the credibility of the people who are posting on your forum. There’s quite a bit of room for doubt actually.

Are you a bunch of people who own a horse or two each and board? Not trainers or coaches, but just simply owners and riders? Don’t get me wrong, I know trainers who can’t ride to save their life, and vets & farriers who seriously need to consider other career options. Surely we have all met someone who fits that bill along the way. Maybe even more than one?

I am just asking to clarify for myself, other readers and posters the validity of yours and their words.

Cut-N-Jump said...

GL-Even trail riders need to learn how to ride well. Or at least, improve their skills.
FOR THEIR HORSE'S COMFORT.


Not only that, but for their own safety as well. A secure independant seat can literally save your ass when tack fails, your horse bolts or any number of unexpected things happen out on the trail or in an arena.


KZ- I would hardly consider drawing lines on a photo "ripping it to shreds". But then I guess to each their own.

WashingtonBay said...

So if I am reading this correctly, none of you have a business or farms?

Baywind Farm is just a forum. For fun. It's not a business. It's a pastime.

... If none of you have farms or businesses and you personally don’t have any students, it sounds as if there may be some room to doubt the credibility of the people who are posting on your forum. There’s quite a bit of room for doubt actually.

Not sure why that alone is room to doubt anyone's credibility... but I'll go on below.

Are you a bunch of people who own a horse or two each and board? Not trainers or coaches, but just simply owners and riders?

We are all those things. We are as varied as, well, people are. We're a collection of varied horse people, from those of us who have a couple horses at home, to others who board, to others who board horses for others, train, give, or take, lessons. We have people who compete in various disciplines at some level, and we have people who don't. We have people who are new to horses, and people who have had them many years. Young and old, and everyone in between. A pretty well rounded group, really. :~)

And our credibility is whatever credibility can be discerned by what we each say. A forum, is, after all, a collection of individuals who will differ. You know... like ... people do. :~)

FatAppy said...

GoLightly;
When a member posts something on our forum that is potentially disastrous for either horse, rider, or both.. It does not go ignored.

Members are always exchanging opinions and advice whether it be on how to improve our riding, how to work through problems with their horse, dietary changes, deworming advice, etc. We all love our horses dearly and do the best we possibly can for them.

The forum is just a casual family forum with a mixture of people with all different experience levels from those just getting into the horse world to those who have had years and years of experience.

FatAppy said...

Oop, WB, we cross posted.

Sara said...

Just curious...how many people woke up this morning, checked their email and saw something absolutely fucking hilarious in there, or amazing, or something very touching, or a chain letter, and hit "forward"? Ok, ok, maybe not today...but yesterday? Wednesday morning? You know...one of those prayer/god letters, or some picture, or even a "hope you have a great day" email. Or even better, an announcement concerning a horse event. How many of you have NEVER EVER hit forward? And if you have hit the forward button, how many of you looked up EVERY SINGLE author or creator so that you could give proper credit or ask permission to forward it to someone else?????

Here's another question, does this quote look familiar to anyone???

""In order for breeders to receive an acceptable price it was necessary that they produce horses
which meet the competition of other breeds and meet the competitions of other forms of recreation." - Ben Johnson 1963

I know one of you will recognize it (Tuffy), because you, yourself, use it in your email sig. While I give you credit for crediting the source...did you ask him personally if you could quote him??? Highly doubtful, since he's been deceased since 1996.

And again...no matter how much you try to justify it, taking photos that belong to/were taken by someone else, is TRULY no different than someone taking the writings that belong to someone else...morally that is. You can't be mad at someone stealing your stuff, when you so openly approve of others taking things (photos) that don't rightfully belong to them. That's just hypocritical and not nice! ;)

Sara said...

And just for the record...I don't condone harrassing anyone, or purposely hurting others, or taking things that don't belong to them (although I admit, I don't look up authors/creators before hitting forward - oops) or picking on children/teens!

As someone once said (sorry, I can't remember who it was, so I can't credit them)..."can't we all just get along?" Am I in trouble now? {looking side to side for the internet copyright police}

Tuffy Horse said...

FatAppy wrote:
>You guys are extremely upset because people are taking Tracy's poem and sharing it with others via forum, e-mail, whatever. They're not bashing it, not making money off of it, they're just sharing it with others because they liked it.


That's where you're wrong. People ahve sold it, set up stores with products featuring it and claimed authorship. One woman names Nancy Lucas claimed she wrote it and gave people permission to publish it on their websites and in magazines. I've got the Library of Congress Copyright. I own the piece and I should not have to fight with people to get them to respect my rights.

As for what this blog does, I don't own it, nor do I condone some of the things that happen here. I also can't control the owner of the blog. So people need to separate the two issues.

Tracy M

Jeff said...

I am an expert horseman...there I said it on the internet so therefore it is true. I'm also 6'2" and a very successful model. (snort)

This "blog" (which by nature is created by self-indulgent, arrogant individuals who only wish to hear themselves speak) holds no real credentials out there for the world, so no need to get too worked up about what she says.

but publicly posted pictures are indeed public domain.

Wrong, my pictures are my pictures no matter if I post them on a public forum or not.


Trojan's TRYING to stop the crappy riding that's rampant.

Again, wrong. Trojan is simply trying to make herself feel good at the cost of others. We called them bullies in high school. IF she really wished to educated rather than berate she would put up photos of herself in both good instances and bad and explain the difference but I have not seen any of her.....have you?

I also see no reason to "separate the issues" when Tuffy had no complaints until her hypocrisy was pointed out. One would think that one stung with theft of her property would not frequent a blog that does little else

The assorted 1/2 truths and out-right ignorance here is enough for me not to loose any sleep over what any may think of me...but then again they are experts aren't they. (again...snort)

Tuffy Horse said...

FatAppy wrote:
>The woman who posted Tracy's poem was trying to show everyone else what a terrific piece of writing it was.. No harm intended. Even after it was credited, then removed, and apologies were given, Tracy continued to bash us and threatened to have us put on FHOTD and this blog.

First of all I have NO control over what gets put on Fugly. None at all and there is not a single post where I say I can get you featured there. Secondly the nasty comments m ade about me and my daughter by your group were inescusable. Had WB removed the post when first requested I would have left and never said another thing about it. But your group continued to harrass me through 60 posts as to why I wasn't justified in not letting people use my work. Your own actions show how immature and disrespectful the forum was with respect for my rights.

And I don't buy the "no intention to harm" statement. The porno guy that borrowed it and and my daughter's photo used the same argument. So why should I give your group any more leeway than I did him? The fact that WB left the thread up shows that she was proud of how nasty you all were.

Zeiger,

I can assure that in person and toe to toe Jean would rip a person's head off. She was a bartender on the AZ/Mx border eary in her life, you really don't know what you're talking about.

Sara wrote:
>I know one of you will recognize it (Tuffy), because you, yourself, use it in your email sig. While I give you credit for crediting the source...did you ask him personally if you could quote him??? Highly doubtful, since he's been deceased since 1996.

Ben Johnson, the Appaloosa breeder is still very much alive. He accepted an induction into the Appaloosa Hall of Fame for one of his horses last year. And The ARTILCE that quote is from is 4 pages long. It's a small snippet that is properly attributed. It is not the entire context of the article. My poem has been reposted in it's entirety and NOT attributed.
So you need to get your facts straight, and I'm sure Mr. Johnson would rather that you didn't spread around that he is dead.

And again Sara, you're assigning something to me that does not exist. I don't condone taking anyone from anybody and Jean and I have had very public fights about it. However, your group painted me as the big bad wolf and used every excuse in the book to justify passing something on, without credit to the author.

And for the record, I rarely pass things arond the internet. I use the delete key or send a link to the source. I don't take things off of other people's websites to use on mine.


Tracy M

FatAppy said...

Tuffy Horse:
Sorry, I should've reworded that. I was directing that comment towards those who are sharing the poem out of pure enjoyment and nothing more.
---I can completely understand your frustration and any bitterness towards those who are taking your poem and using it to profit from or claiming it as their own. That is not right in any way.

The woman who posted your poem on Baywind meant no harm by it, she just wanted everyone to read what she found a very meaningful piece of work. Where she originally found the poem also had not credited you and there was no thought to find who the author was. Now we all know to dive deep into Google to find who wrote what before any article is posted.

I'm deeply sorry that you and your sister feel this way about our forum, we in no way were trying to claim the poem as our own and in no way tried to make money off of it.

FatAppy said...

--First of all I have NO control over what gets put on Fugly. None at all and there is not a single post where I say I can get you featured there.


Tracy..
Is this not what you said?

"Locking it isn't going to solve the problem!

I'm sending the owner of the Shame in the Horse Show Ring blog over so she can kipe pictures and quotes and use them in her blog. Your members have plenty of stuff they won't mind being stolen, because after all, it's on the internet.
Of course the Fugly Horse of the Day gal could do a lot with the forum too, she'll get an email later.

Now I don't condone stealing other people's work, but since your group has such a free spirited attidude about it I'm sure they won't mind Jean using their photos and such on her blog. She's a wicked bitch, but she sure knows how to point out riding and conformational flaws.

Some times it's nice to have friends in low places."

Tuffy Horse said...

Jeff,

I don't condone everything Wal-mart does, but I still shop there.
And I don't resell anyone's stuff either. I read Fugly's blog too, as well as several other horse related blogs where I don't agree with anything. Looks like you're another one of the "as long as I do it it's okay" but I'll bitch at everyone else type of people.
The BWF had my stolen property well before anything about them was mentioned here and then decided to harrass a kid over it.
So I'd say your group was a bunch of experts in denial, bullying and stupidity where copyright laws are concerned.

Tracy M

FatAppy said...

I would love to see these "nasty" e-mails to your daughter from Baywind Forum people. Do they even exist and specifically, what members sent them? How do you know whether they're from us or another forum?

Tuffy Horse said...

FatAppy wrote>
>I'm deeply sorry that you and your sister feel this way about our forum, we in no way were trying to claim the poem as our own and in no way tried to make money off of it.

Your point? Why not jsut remove the articvle when I first requested it and delete the thread? Nope, that was too simple and too much the right thing to do. WB had to act like a snarky ass and rag me about wanting the poem removed. A stroll through the posts shows how quickly your group turned into idiots.

>"Locking it isn't going to solve the problem!

>I'm sending the owner of the Shame in the Horse Show Ring blog over so she can kipe pictures and quotes and use them in her blog

That was a private email, not a post and it was made after the thread was locked and WB refused to delete all references to me or my daughter. And since so many of your forum members attested that once something was on the internet it was free game then why not let them experience it first hand. It was okay with them to do it to me.

Have Jean or Cathy featured any of the riders on their blogs? No, not until Jean put up one photo when your group started laughing about how much fun it was to be featured here. And then once that happened you all became outraged that someone would come to your forum, take something and repost it. Now how's that for hypocrisy? Kinda sucks when it happens to you huh?

And if WB was really as mature and democratic as she attests then she wouldn't have banned me from replying. It's a true method of a forum bully. I notice you've all been allowed to post your stuff here with no limitations.

And if we're going to go with the reposting emails stuff how about I put up some of the ones my daughter got? Then when people search Baywind's they'll really see what your group is like. And let's not forget the vile comments that were left on my website guestbook by some of your groups members. yep, those show that your down home family image is just a front.

All I wanted was my poem removed and the thread deleted, but it was too much trouble for WB, she wanted it left up so people could find it. Well now they can find it and all the comments here to go with it.

Tracy M

FatAppy said...

>>>All I wanted was my poem removed and the thread deleted, but it was too much trouble for WB, she wanted it left up so people could find it. Well now they can find it and all the comments here to go with it.
--Your poem was deleted and you got what you wanted. Not good enough?

Feel free to post those letters after you get done typing them.

Sara said...

Ben Johnson, if you are indeed alive, I just want to say that I am terribly sorry that I said you were dead!!! You have the name of a very famous horseman, and it was an easy mistake to make.

I guess had people only used a snippet of your work, that would have been a very different story, I stand corrected. Shame on those of you who used the WHOLE thing!!!

And I'm sorry to say that I have to agree, there's no reason to "separate the issues". I would never frequent sites that participated in, and made a habit of doing, things I'm 100% against! To frequent those sites, and be a member of them, would say that I wasn't any better than them. You say your against theft, yet you are a member of this site (no matter who runs it or how much you fight about it) and the Fugly site, which let's face it, thrive off of other peoples' belongings!

(Clapping) You are like the only person I know of who doesn't forward things, that must make you one in a million. But how many of your friends, or the people defending you here (including your sister), has never forwarded an email??? Or takes those extra steps to find out who gets the credit for it before they do??? Who knows, maybe it was someone on here that sent your email out amongst the world to begin with???

WashingtonBay said...

First of all I have NO control over what gets put on Fugly. None at all and there is not a single post where I say I can get you featured there.

FA said you threatened. You did that. Here:
http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/showpost.php?p=177792&postcount=301


That's why you were banned.

*Not* because we wanted your precious essay.

Had WB removed the post when first requested I would have left and never said another thing about it. But your group continued to harrass me through 60 posts as to why I wasn't justified in not letting people use my work.

Wrong. Again... this is all posted here: http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8779&highlight=deleted+essay&page=3

We don't have to debate the facts.
You posted at 5:18 that it was stolen with no specific request for it to be deleted.
I responded at 7:00, within moments of it being brought to my attention, that I would happily credit you, and I did. No response to this.
I indicated a willingness to remove it if you wished, at 8:53.
At 11:28 you requested I delete it, and at 11:31 I did.

To be clear... you were not harassed, you were responded to. And you were not mocked out of any sense of entitlement to your work, you were mocked for your behavior, and your baseless ranting.

You're entitled to your own opinion, you are not entitled to your own facts. Kapeesh? :)

And by the way... if *we* threatened you or badmouthed your daughter, post a link. Till then, I say you're making it all up, like most everything else you've accused us of.

Why not jsut remove the articvle when I first requested it and delete the thread?

And be stuck with just your memory of what happened when you're badmouthing us? FAT CHANCE.

Amy said...

Wow, I stopped readin the replies halfway through because of all the drama.

I read/post at horsetopia. Yes, there are some retarded things. I don't post the dancing smiley faces on foal watches, but I will post sometimes just to say someone has a cute horse. I mostly keep it pretty impersonal, because god forbid you disagree with someone- the mods there are pretty psycho. I once not only got a post deleted, but was banned from viewing the thread.

But, that being said... look at all the drama here! It's like high school all over again. But I still glean some valuable info, or I wouldn't read here from time to time. Same with Horsetopia. There are some smart people who post there, and as a newer horse owner, it helps me to read some of the threads... I have learned a lot there, and from the various blogs I read.

Tuffy Horse said...

Washington Bay,

What part of REMOVE MY COPYRIGHTED ARTICLE is not clear to you?

It's a request for the article to be removed and the reason is that the article was stolen.
Sheesh, it's obvious that reading skills are not required to join your forum.
People get it. I wanted it removed and you wouldn't do it until endless debates about it. Your group wasn't honestly debating the issue, they were sticking up for a thief.


Tracy M

Tuffy Horse said...

FatAppy,

I don't have to write the nasty emails or guest book entries from Baywind's or mini forums. It's so typical of the denial from your group. "Noooo, we'd never do anyting wrong", yet Jean posted an email she got from one of your group members just yesterday.

Pathetic.

MiniLuver said...

Washington Bay
>And be stuck with just your memory of what happened when you're badmouthing us? FAT CHANCE.


Boy you really are stupid. If you'd removed the article thread there wouldn't be any reminder to outsiders about how your group stole her work and harrassed her.
You're as bad as the mini people. No accountability. Are you not considering that the posts back her side a lot more than yours? You have people saying she has not right to control her work. You have people bad mouthing her child. You have people accuing her of not writing the poem. Is this what you want the internet legacy of your group to be? As an outsider to the whole situation I can see her side way more clearly than yours. Your group is a snarky mess of self righteous indignation, she's the one with the law on her side.

I agree with you that most of the readers here wouldn't like your forum. We don't tolerate bullshit, abuse or whining. It would not be a good mix.



DUH!

vltrnjd said...

Get the content correct Tracy: http://www.vltrnjd.com/legal.html

WashingtonBay said...

Tuffy, I'm afraid it's you with the reading comprehension problem.

Your first request to me to delete the essay was at 11:28, and it was deleted at 11:31. Proof: http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8779&page=5

That it turned into a big bruhaha was as much your doing as ours.

Had you refrained from half the hysterics, and sent me a private note even that was clear in what you wanted, it would have been deleted without comment or incident, no harm, no foul.

BTW:
And email to the owner of this blog from someone who may or may not be a BWF member (you've got lots of 'fans' besides just us) is not a 'threat', it's a communication. I want proof - a link - to *our* comments that threatened you, or your daughter.

No, you *saying so* is not proof. I've shown your memory to be quite faulty! It's BS, is what it is.

MiniLuver said...

CNJ,

Looks like the Baywinds people and the mini people have interbred and will shortly produce a species of even more ignorant horse owners.

Run away little minis, run very far away!

Tuffy Horse said...

Washington Bay,

You seem to be forgetting the fact you left your snarky comments about deleting the post up for several hours.

And I had NO way of knowing who to contact or who the moderators were, because your forum doesn't fricking have a moderator list. The only way to make a request, if you're new there, is to make a post.
And I wasn't remotely hysteric. I was responding to the theft of my article and your "drama queens" went off all over me about how I should appreciate people stealing my stuff. The hysterics came from you posting your snarky crap to try to excuse the fact you are a poor and unethical moderator. We can read WB, unlike your group.

You're just mad because people have called your group on the fact your were WRONG about the whole situation.

Tracy M

Tuffy Horse said...

Vicki,

Hey thanks, that can go to bar association report too!

Nothing like someone that claims to be an attorney actually abusing their position to slander people!


Tracy M

vltrnjd said...

No slander - its all the truth. I stll haven't heard from your lawyer.

LegalEagleinFLA said...

VLTRNJD,

If you really are an attorney then you're a fool to create such a page. I can't believe any licensed professional would do such a thing.

Tuffy, I suggest you go here and file a complaint:
http://www.abanet.org/cpr/regulation/directory.pdf

I'm disgusted if you're actually a licensed attorney. You are making the industry seem even worse than it is already perceived to be.

Paul D.

vltrnjd said...

It's protected free speech - and the truth is the only way to straighten out blog mis-information as has been posted by Tracy. Those are her exact words and my replies. It is also the holding opinions and her past postings. Nothing unethical, nothing slanderous - we live your blogs, you live with the truth.

LegalEagleinFLA said...

VRTNL,

I disagree. You also apparently made the wrong statement that her work was in the public domain and urged people to use it. Why didn't you post all of your emails to her, which she was kind enough to send me, where you say you're going to tell people to violate her copyright?
I can't believe you're this unprofessional that you don't know the difference between free speech and slander.

She asked for her article to be remoeved and your client gets mad because she didn't say it with chocolate and then you go after the owner of the piece?

You really aren't an attorney right? This is just some kind of role you play on TV isn't it? She is well within her rights to file copyright charges against the owner of the forum and unethical behavior charges against you.

I can't find you in the attorney "black book" so you haven't worked on any notable cases. Where did you go to school? Jamaica?

Paul D

vltrnjd said...

I am an attorney in good standing and Tracy knows it. I did not encourage people to post her work. I did have them post her threats against a forum to let the members know to protect themselves. In fact her work was taken down, if it is really her work. The cases I have cited are precedential and would hold in any federal court in the country. The cautionary tale is to be very careful when posting work that in the future may hold some value. It can end up in the public domain if not handled correctly. There is no attorney black book nationally. ABA is an organization that we can choose to belong to or not. I am not her attorney - I do not owe her any duty. The posts on my web page are for instances where she mis-represents what was in our discussions as she has in this blog. The blog may be free speech but it is a two way street - I can post what the truth has been when she posts something misleading about it.

katphoti said...

JackieB,

"I felt terrible (and indignant) because I would never have stolen it. That's all that happened with your essay. The poster just didn't know."

Okay, so they "just didn't know." So let's say someone comes up to your house, sees the door open on your car and the keys in it because you're in the house putting away groceries and you're not done yet. THey get in the car and drive away. When they get caught, they say "oh, but I just didn't know it's not okay to drive someone else's car without their permission." So are you just going to excuse them? That's acceptable to you? If it is, then I think I'll be heading to your house to "borrow" a bunch of your stuff, since I can just tell you I "just didn't know."

Ignorance of the law is no excuse. As a person who works in publishing, you should absolutely know that.

Cut-N-Jump said...

Holy Freakin' Cow!


I have not read the Bay Winds posts or the Mini forum stuff.

Why?

Sheesh, just read through some of that... *points upwards*.


Mini Luvr- I know through personal experience some of the ways of the mini world. Shamtastic to say the least.

katphoti said...

FatAppy,

"The woman who posted Tracy's poem was trying to show everyone else what a terrific piece of writing it was.. No harm intended."

Again, in a court of law, IGNORANCE IS NO EXCUSE.

Honestly, I learned the hard way as the forum did as to how copyrights work. But I certainly didn't get all up in their face when I received a nasty letter about a photo I had on my website. I removed the photo and said okay, won't do it again. Case closed. Instead, the forum members and owner continued to harass Tuffy. Just because you don't like how she worded her request to ask you to take it down doesn't give you guys the right to do act the way you did.

WB, do you understand the reason WHY you're not a big forum? It's because of the bad attitude there. People who know better AND know how to ride stay away. That's how it goes.

Cut-N-Jump said...

Kat you got mail and ph #'s.

katphoti said...

Holy crap, did I just say "all up in their face"? I can't believe I just said that!

Thanks CNJ!

WashingtonBay said...

Naw...katphoti, that's not why we're not bigger.

We've not even been running that long, less than a year. And we've got a good core group of friends from a previous forum, and healthy growth rate for a forum with no real external advertising.

We're really pretty happy with it. If it was bigger, it would be like a job. :~)

I'm done here, I think. It's all been said, and repeated, ad nauseum.

horsndogluvr said...

Gosh, don't shun me folks, but I joined horsedopia, just to take a look.

Oh, the drama llamas! Oh, the ignorance! Oh, the lack of intelligible content! Oh, the lack of reading comprehension!

I think I'll drop by there now and then, when I'm in a low mood. It will help me raise my shelf-eshteeeeem.

Here's an article about copyright and the internet.
http://mason.gmu.edu/~montecin/copyright-internet.htm

Notable: a copyright notice is not required. Any original written work produced after 1989 is automatically copyrighted.

And e-mail is private correspondence and may not be published on a publicly accessible page without the author's permission!

Another good article:
http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html

(c) Ruthie

Sara said...

katphoti said... "So let's say someone comes up to your house, sees the door open on your car and the keys in it because you're in the house putting away groceries and you're not done yet. THey get in the car and drive away. When they get caught, they say "oh, but I just didn't know it's not okay to drive someone else's car without their permission." So are you just going to excuse them? That's acceptable to you? If it is, then I think I'll be heading to your house to "borrow" a bunch of your stuff, since I can just tell you I "just didn't know."



OH COME ON!!!! If someone taking someone else's photo and placing it on their blog isn't the same thing as taking someone's words (or in most cases - forwarding an unknown piece of work), then how in the hell is taking someone's CAR the same thing???

As Trojan Mouse said herself, posted (11-25-2008) on the HGS forum...

"If you don't want people to see it then don't post it."

Couldn't the same be said for a writer who posts her work on an open website?

And since when is a "forum" bad because they have a few rotton apples? That's like saying that everyone who enjoys coming to this blog must be snobby, uptight bitches. I'm sure that most of you are really nice people who are doing nothing more then defending your fellow friends. To label everyone at a forum/blog badly is just wrong. Everyone has different personalities and beliefs. A forum/blog is nothing more than a meeting place to share ideas, beliefs and get to know others. It doesn't mean that everyone there is the same!

"I" personally think that the forums, and the author (Tracy) are both in the wrong!!!! Things on both ends could have been handled differently!!! Things could have been worded better in the beginning, and then no one would have went on the defensive...which did get REALLY carried away. Lots of feelings were hurt over something that could have been easily avoided! :(

JohnieRotten said...

Holy Crap!

Now the attorneys have shown up.

What did you do BW or WB or whatever you are?

WashingtonBay said...

For the record, the attorneys, and talk of attorneys, have nothing to do with Baywind forum. That's not us.

JohnieRotten said...

Seems to me if someones photo is online Sara, and someone forwards it or puts it on a blog. There is nothing you can do about it unless there is a copyright stamped on it.

It happens all of the the time. It islike we ways say. If you put your life on the Internet, others will use it!

Cut-N-Jump said...

Kat- So I won't get to meet you tonight... *sigh*

Ah, well, another day I guess.

WB- the reason I asked the background of you and the forum posters, is sometimes people talk the talk, but fail to walk the walk.

If the issues with this girls riding were addressed on your forum and pointed out in a way she may learn from them, then good for everyone involved. Some people fail to take constructive critisism well though.

If instead she was merely 'patted on the back' and praised for the great riding as displayed, then I for one would certainly question the group as being a "sunshine and butterflies" crowd that worried more about someones feelings, than the horse or helping them improve.

JohnieRotten said...

WB

for the record.

Well the I stand corrected. But they are here!

Sara said...

JohnieRotten said... Seems to me if someones photo is online Sara, and someone forwards it or puts it on a blog. There is nothing you can do about it unless there is a copyright stamped on it.

It happens all of the the time. It islike we ways say. If you put your life on the Internet, others will use it!


True enough, I totally agree with you! Morally speaking though, there isn't much difference between taking a photo that doesn't belong to you, or taking a story. Both are wrong, and both is stealing something that you didn't create yourself. To be against one, you'd have to be against the other from a respectable view point.

Cut-N-Jump said...

Good thing I wore my boots today. Maybe should brought out the ol' raincoat too.


My oh my, how the shit doth fly?

In all directions today it seems.


Carry on.

Beer and popcorn anyone?

JohnieRotten said...

I'll take a beer

LegalEagleinFLA said...

Ruthie,

You're correct. Email content is copyrighted to the author and cannot be publicly posted without permission. This is why I doubt VT is really a lawyer. If she was she would know copyright law and that was she is doing is blatantly unethical. There are several serious missteps in her actions that no ethical lawyer would committ.

I also got to see the emails that were sent to Tuffy's daughter, she was kind enough to forward them to me to review. They are pretty bad and could certainly bolster a case of an adult harrassing a child. They do have the ISP logs and from what the webtracker on the poem's page shows their isps match the visitors from that clicked the poem's link from the baywind's forum.

Frankly I amazed that any group would act this ignoble over something they had no right to possess.


Paul D

MiniLuver said...

Looks liek Mary Lou has trotted out her Pitbull Victoria.
She does it any time some one pisses her off, and I think Victoria gets off on playing the big bad lawyer.

Tuffy, she's a light weight, any good traffic ticket attorney could tear her up in court.

FatAppy said...

I'm still waiting to see these e-mails to your daughter. Go ahead and post the publicly.

It's hard to believe that there are any considering we all felt bad for her.. Not angry towards her. We have no reason to be upset with her. She did absolutely nothing and I'm positive every single person on that forum who gives a damn about this argument would agree with that statement.

Sara said...

I find it really hard to believe that a lawyer (I'm assuming you are one LegalEagle) would be hanging around, and conversing on, a blog that uses photos without permission and would advise about copyright laws.

Please don't be biased and do share with everyone the fact that if you do not have permission to use a photo, you cannot legally display it on a website, post it to the usenet, copy it, send it around by email, make photos from it, sell it, or otherwise exploit it.

Let's be fair here...it's as illegal as what Tracy has went through!

WashingtonBay said...

I also got to see the emails that were sent to Tuffy's daughter, she was kind enough to forward them to me to review. They are pretty bad and could certainly bolster a case of an adult harrassing a child. They do have the ISP logs and from what the webtracker on the poem's page shows their isps match the visitors from that clicked the poem's link from the baywind's forum.

I'll say again, I don't believe such emails even exist, until you prove it. I certainly don't take your word for it.

There isn't anyone on my forum who found the episode with Tracy anything other than amusing, let alone cared to find this daughter and harass her.

But let's just pretend for a moment it's true you can show some correlation to hits Tracy's site got from our forum. All that proves is that Tracey and or her daughter have a stalker that can google, or who found our forum through the link on Tracy's own page. Our forum is a public page, viewable to anyone. And Tracy's no stranger to creating drama that may follow her.

You show me a name I can correlate to one of our members who actually harassed your daughter, I'll act on it with all my meager power to act on it, which is unfortunately limited to banning them from my site if they deserve it. I want no part of such things. You can email me privately by clicking any of the 'contact us' links on the forum and send me these names and emails.

But short of producing some proof, it's all just continued bafflecrap and baseless innuendo I'll not believe or speak to again till I see it.

MiniLuver said...

Washington Bay,

You must have missed what Ruthie said about posting copyrighted emails.

And I think you're not looking at the broader picture that if these emails end up being part of an online harrassment case then there is no way she can post them without tipping her hand.

You keep ignoring the simply solution because it suits you to. Had you removed the post and the thread then nothing would have ever been said here. I'm sure if you really wanted the issue to end then something along those lines could be worked out between your forum and Trojan's blog. It's the fact that you refuse to acknowledge the wrong done to the author that shows that you really do thrive on the harassment of the author. I haven't seen you offer a single solution to a situation that your forum created.

Cut-N-Jump said...

WB- Bafflecrap is a wonderful word!

Dena said...

First time posting here where to start.

I am glad I only have a blog.lol

Seriously LegalEagleFLA ummm...no.
Incorrect.
Email is not copyright protected to the author.
No offense but do you ever read the papers, legal journals, etc.?
Think of all of the politicians who have been outed by their email.
Celebs, and real everyday ordinary people.
Email once sent becomes the property of the receiver it was sent to.
For your proposition to hold true it would involve federal governance law. Which still would not apply to anyone living outside of the USA.
Unless, you are trying to find an article of, The Free Trade Treaty to encompass something, that quite frankly does not exist.
If you would like to supply a federal statute number I would be happy to review it before discounting it entirely.

I am constantly entertained by, people claiming to know the law, who then, specifically prove their ignorance with regard to.

Sometimes, I wish people would just keep their kids off these forums completely.
Too many whackjobs masquerading as professionals.

The internet is not always a nice place.
Because the world has it's share of not nice people.

I am not making excuses for what is done that is wrong and hurtful.
It is unfortunate that it is usually done to people who do not have a clue how to protect themselves from it.

CnJ if I get flamed I do NOT want to know about it.

cattypex said...

Wow....

Sheer craziness!! Please, folks, the horse is dead. Get OFF the horse. Metaphorically speaking.

On another note, why do people post photos and videos of themselves and their horses, ask for feedback, and then FREAK if someone notes that their hands are too low, or the horse's head is plain, or whatever. It's worse than horse show moms!

GoLightly said...

Agree, or disagree?
"Trojan picks a lot on trainers' equitation whereas I think it's fine for certain flaws to exist and that it's nearly impossible to maintain beautiful equitation riding greenies all day. I don't want to see a trainer with shitty hands or pivoting on their knee and pitching forward over fences, but things like feet too far forward or hunchy shoulders are a non-issue to me."


Agree, or disagree?
"The real truth is, that for a general purpose horse, the trainer doesn't NEED to have a truly independent seat, or perfect hands, or very subtle cues. In fact, the greener the horse, the LOUDER the cues, initially. Kind of like talking to a toddler, short, clear, loud words. You don't add subtlety until much later."

Those are some of the prevailing attitudes amongst so-called horse people.

The training standards have fallen to abysmal levels.

What has happened to the horse industry?
People.
The Wal-Mart mentality has pervaded every facet of our lives. Buy him cheapest, learn to ride him quickest.

Learning should never stop.
It's too bad that low standards seem to be the new acceptable normal.
The top quote is taken from someone who has given lessons.

To Horses, with correct training, and riders that actually care enough ABOUT THE HORSE to want to learn to ride well.

irrelevant, and out..

horsndogluvr said...

I'm done with this, too.

To anyone who is not: US copyright law is here.

http://www.copyright.gov/title17/

Ruthie

SFTS said...

Wow........just, wow.

Trojan Mouse said...

Dena,

You're wrong. All written words become copyrighted to the creator.

This is why a person that tried to auction letters he had recieved from Princess Diana was blocked by her estate. Because even though the letters belonged to him, she had after all given them to him, the words were copyrighted to her and her estate retained control. Look it up. The case exists and it once more upholds that an author holds copyright from the moment of creation.

I spent the day helping my sister clip 18 horses and two donkeys. I have no idea how she can clip horse after horse with no twitches, lip chains or sedation, never lose her cool and always turn out a fabulous job. Even the weanlings and yearlings got their bridle paths, faces and ears done and never did more than fidget a bit.

So even though I ragged you about your clipped hair covered shirt today Sis, I salute you for doing a great job.


I'm working on two posts this evening and then I need to poll the regular readers about something.

T Jean Maus

JackieB said...

""The poster just didn't know. "

Aaaah, ignorance.

AKA copy/pasting only the important parts, and skipping the actual author's name..
That is disgraceful."

I was the one that said "The poster just didn't know", GoLightly. She included the link where she found the essay and it doesn't include the author.

But I absolutely agree with you. Intentionally omitting information that identifies the owner of intellectual property is disgraceful.

I feel bad for Tracy. This gesture of love to her daughter has obviously caused her a tremendous amount of frustration. In reading her response, I can see that she is just completely out of patience after fighting to protect her work for so long.

But I was simply trying to say that these things can happen without any intention. And there is a lot of writing without known authorship. The "Rainbow Bridge" poem, for example, has brought comfort to millions of people and we don't know who wrote it. Many famous quotes, hymns, other songs, poems, and stories have unknown authorship, but we use them.

JackieB said...

"And I do hate to be the one to break this to you, Fat Appy, but publicly posted pictures are indeed public domain.

IF the photos were copyrighted?
Different story altogether."

You're mistaken, GoLightly. Copyright is established as soon as someone writes a poem, essay, song, takes a picture, or otherwise creates intellectual property. Going through the process of registering with the U.S. Copyright Office strengthens one's argument in case of a legal case, but copyright exists without it.

Ask Tracy if you have a question on this one. That's one of her chief frustrations - people thinking that just because her essay is out there that it's in the public domain in terms of copyright.

JackieB said...

"Ignorance of the law is no excuse. As a person who works in publishing, you should absolutely know that."

Katphoti,
You're right. I don't dispute that ignorance is no excuse. But the fact remains that there does have to be intention on the part of a person to steal something.

In the example you made about my car, we all know that driving someone's car away without permission is wrong. But copyright laws are often poorly understood, especially since the advent of the Internet.

Look at just this string of comments on this one blog. GoLightly is definitely mistaken about photos on the Internet being in the public domain, Jean has a very strict admonishment not to copy anything off of her site, but feels justified in copying and pasting other photos here. So she either feels that she is within the copyright laws, or doesn't care about them.

Just look at the massive lawsuits involving companies like Youtube and Google. Copyright isn't perfectly defined yet when it comes to the Internet.

I do agree though, that anyone who Tracy asks to remove her poem should do so. If you look at the string from Baywind Forum, you'll see that this happened immediately. WB first attributed the poem to Tracy, then deleted it when asked. I think all of that happened within a few hours.

GoLightly said...

I think those points are indeed valid, JB. But that may be precisely why there are so many "Unknown" authors out there. I found Tuffy's poem on my forum, without any credit given. I think it's just plain laziness to not credit the author. And if the author is NOT credited, perhaps the writing should be posted with a "Please, whoever wrote this, speak up so you may be credited"?

I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, because our copyright laws are maybe slightly different up here, but as long as you credit the picture, where it came from, and who took it, and as long as it isn't a Professional Photographers' picture, and it is NOT used for financial gain, it's okay. I have asked, and received permission, for using text/pictures from a book that was printed in 1966, from the author.

However, for example, web-sites are publicly posted business entities. What if I take a picture from one of those sites, or receive that web-site in an e-mailed link, and then decide to use the site in a way that describes that site's business?

"They" (whoever THEY are) are still figuring out just how complicated the internet has made communications & copyright laws..

What about plain text, e-mailed, with no idea where it came from or who wrote it?

I get quotes from forums e-mailed to me regularly, and I use them as examples of poor riding and training techniques on my blog.
Who is harmed by using these quotes?

I'm interested in horse welfare, as it starts with training.

If blatant misinformation is being transmitted, how to stop the idiocy?

That's one of the biggest points against the internet, imo.

How to stop misinformation? Even if it's wrong, it should be subject to copyright?

Dena said...

Actually no I am not wrong. You have listed an example that may or may not include several factors.

For instance when someone dies lots of things change.
Obligations of confidentiality etc..
Please note I did not say they cease to exist. I said they change.

Secondly profit. If there is profit involved then the estate would have standing.

Thirdly if the letters were written to the individual in question they became the property of the individuals upon receipt.

I could go on but I am not incorrect.

Another example would be fhotd placed herself in questionable standing with her use of other peoples words with the intent to gain hits and revenue.
I have found the horsey set on the blogs to be consistant to a fault with regard to their misinterpretations of law.

As, I stated, intent to profit financially can change many things.
And requires additional permissions than simply publishing the words of another does.

The law is subject to two things. One being interpretation.
Two being the ability to successfully defend it.

Unfortunately it is anything but black and white.

I will say this belief, that just because it is on the internet, it is okay to take it, is more an example of, how far people will go left to their own devices, than, it is a reflection of what is legally or morally acceptable.

WashingtonBay said...

You have listed an example that may or may not include several factors.


Not the least of which being that law in Great Britain, be it estate law or copyright law, does not have a thing to do with law in the United States.

We fought a war for that once ;~)


oh and cut-n-jump, as for your comment up there about whether we adequately critique our members or not... We're pretty good at figuring out how to have our own interpersonal relationships on the forum, but thanks for your concern. :~)

horsndogluvr said...

Well, I said I was out of this one, but apparently nobody went to read the link I posted...

There is NO QUESTION that written words are protected by copyright law.

Here's the section on fair use:

"§ 107. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use40

Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include —
(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;
(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.
The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors."

BW's publication of Tuffy's essay, knowingly done or not, is NOT fair use.

Using photos/videos in blogs such as this one IS fair use, because they are posted for "purposes such as criticism, comment..."

Since I want any one who quotes me to give me the credit, I try to do it to others. It's not that hard to find out who wrote something. Google it.

If I don't know the name, I credit the username and the blog, and usually keep the URL handy.

Ruthie

Tuffy Horse said...

Dena wrote:
>Thirdly if the letters were written to the individual in question they became the property of the individuals upon receipt

No, that's not correct. While the physical letters may belong to the individual they are sent to, the words belong to the writer, in ALL cases. The reason "outed" emails from public officials rarely get pulled into copyright cases is because usually the public official, or celebrity is trying to DENY they wrote whatever stupid thing is being published.
There have been several cases where estates have prevented the publishing of old love letters and such other documents, even though they are in possession of a non-related individual.

Fair use is also something people don't understand. Since the public posting of my poem means that people don't have to buy it from my online store posting it in a forum does not constitute Fair Use. I'm surpised the supposed mini forum's "pitbull" lawyer doesn't understand all these things. She's made mistake after mistake regarding this case and continues to dig herself in deeper.

So basically the debates on the forums where people are whining that I was mean to them for not allowing them to use my poem are just exhibitions in ignorance. They are public proclamations that the individuals involved don't know copyright law, don't care about stealing a person's property or their income, in this case my daughter's college money, and have no intention of abiding by any moral obligation to respect someone else's work.

I agree with the other poster, I wouldn't buy anything or do business with any of them either.

On another note: This issue is inspiring an article about the troubles I've gone through with people stealing my poem. It was suggested to me by someone that read this blog and I think it's a good idea.


Tracy M

Tracy M

WashingtonBay said...

So basically the debates on the forums where people are whining that I was mean to them for not allowing them to use my poem are just exhibitions in ignorance.

Gross mischaracterization. You keep pretending we wanted to keep your poem even after you asked us to remove it. In fact, I immediately offered to credit or remove it, and I did in fact remove it within two minutes of receiving such a request. That's the fact. There was no whining about keeping it, no one wanted it.

The bruhaha, such as it is, was in fact, a bruhaha about your wild, gross mischaracterizations of us, which continue.

Just a futile attempt at keeping you honest. :~)

Tuffy Horse said...

Washington Bay,

If you're going to go for honest then admit YOUR snarky comments and your group's attacks kept the issue going far longer than it EVER needed too.
Had you removed the post when first requested, as I did not ask for attribution, I asked for removal, and not called me names for asking for the request, then I would have gone away immediately. This has been the case on forum after forum where my wishes are immediately, and sincerely respected.

I've gotten several emails over this, from people that have read your forum and the mini forum. I am touched by the majority of people that understand my frustrations and how poorly both these forums behaved in regards to my property. It proves that there are good horse people out there that care about others and don't regard their own personal forum space as somewhere to have a pissing contest over something they don't legally own.

MiniLuver offered a solution and I notice you haven't responded to it, so I think she's correct, you really don't want the issue resolved because you enjoyed watching your group gang up on me, even though they were completely in the wrong.

As for the mini forum, they are hopeless. They have a pseudo lawyer telling them to ignore copyright law and encourage harassment and use my property even though it costs me money. So they are simply a train wreck waiting to be sued, and turned into the TBA.

Tracy M

WashingtonBay said...

How long something "needs" to go on can be a matter of preference :)

Miniluver's idea is the same as yours, delete the thread.

I'm not going to do that, not while you've got me pegged as the bad guy on your site, and now here. I am *not* going to have the only version of the facts available be your faulty memory. No... for good or ill, what happened happened and it's there for all to see. We'll all be judged on our merits that way.

Dena said...

Okay I think I understand the confusion that I played a part in creating.

If an author sends me, as in specifically addressed to me, an email, text, or handwritten letter, it becomes mine to do with what I will.
That is not transferrable were I to pass it on to another.
However, if, I randomly take the words of another?
And publish and/or profit from these are too very separate cases.
If, I publish without intent to harm and list the author or list the author as unknown to me without intent to financially profit I have caused no harm.
Copyright speaks to protections of financial assets and prevention of harm.

Did that help at all?

Personally the little bit I have gathered here is if someone took a very personal letter poem of praise and made it and the people who wrote and received it, fodder for ridicule and gossip?
Well that was just a crappy thing to do.

Perhaps offering a sincere apology instead of excuse after excuse would go a long way towards reparation.

I know that I am sorry for all those who have experienced this kind of negativity.

Just my two cents. Relatively unsolicted and freely shared.

I wonder who has the original copyright on all of the good swear words?
I know Cnj holds the copyright on one of my favorites.
And JR came up with another killer phrase.
I just can't afford to use them(very often) because I feel honor bound to give credit where credit is due.

SFTS said...

Dena wrote:
If an author sends me, as in specifically addressed to me, an email, text, or handwritten letter, it becomes mine to do with what I will.

That is not transferrable were I to pass it on to another.

However, if, I randomly take the words of another?

If, I publish without intent to harm and list the author or list the author as unknown to me without intent to financially profit I have caused no harm.

Copyright speaks to protections of financial assets and prevention of harm.



Those parts highlighted in bold are what's going to get you in trouble, Dena.

Also included in the part about "doing harm" would be taking the words of another from other forums, email groups (particularly private ones) or elsewhere you had no permission to take them from, emails sent to you containing information regarding private communications which you had no permission to reprint or repost, emails forwarded to you containing information regarding private communications which you had no permission to reprint or repost and doing all of the above with the intent to cause harm.

Engaging in that sort of behavior, with the above noted intent, is a copyright violation and indeed does cause harm. Oftentimes the point of doing these things for the sole purpose of causing harm is far worse than the violation of copyright law itself, with far more severe consequences.

WashingtonBay said...

Personally the little bit I have gathered here is if someone took a very personal letter poem of praise and made it and the people who wrote and received it, fodder for ridicule and gossip?
Well that was just a crappy thing to do.


no no... that's not what happened at all. No one ridiculed the work.

Tracy wrote the piece "sweet sixteen because my daughter grew up with horses" or something like that, google it... you'll find it reprinted at a few various sites) and it's been passed on and published around lots of places, emailed, and unfortunately, some of the time, her name as been lost and it's "author unknown".

One of our members found it on another website posted "Author Unknown" and thought it was sweet and shared it, much like apparently hundreds of others have done, and it's driven Tracy mad trying to track them all down.

I deleted it within two minutes of her actually asking me to, but she was already in a flame war with everyone before I was even contacted, and the hyperbole from her was so over the top, it attracted something of a bruhaha.

I eventually locked the thread but did not delete it. It's my policy not to delete content of threads, in case anyone needs to remember what was said to whom later, which is, in this case, important. Because we did try to make her happy but she could not, at the time, be pleased. I don't think she can now.

WashingtonBay said...

Perhaps offering a sincere apology instead of excuse after excuse would go a long way towards reparation.

And btw, sincere apologies were offered, at the time, repeatedly, by me and by others for the misunderstanding. She called everyone a thief anyway... I'm not going to continue to offer apologies to someone who refuses to accept it. It's all on the thread I've linked several times in these comments up there.

I am sorry this essay of hers is all over the place and she didn't want it to be. But the speed at which things, particularly cute things, get forwarded all over the internet is not my fault, and I cannot control that everything that gets forwarded and printed on a forum as a "isn't this sweet" post sometimes gets changed and it's author lost along the way. No forum admin has time to go double check all that.

I tried to make it right at the time. I really did. But she was taking out aggressions on us that we just didn't think we deserved. Sign up and be clear in who you are and what you'd like, our forum has a track record for being helpful. Throw a giant hissy fit and call our members names, and you're gonna get some push-back. From any forum.

But for the record, I am sorry her piece is out of her control all over the internet.

WashingtonBay said...

Gak - I said I was done here.

And I am, now. This has all been asked and answered.

I answered Dena because I'm familiar with who she is from another blog I've read, and respect her.

But other than that, I'm going to try to duck out and let this fade into our memories... It's fun, but it's run it's course.

Dena said...

SFTS I find it ironic that you of all people would lecture me on what you believe will get me in trouble.
Or, should I consider it sharing the wisdom of lessons learned from your own mistakes?

Thanks WB. May I have permission to use bafflecrap?

WashingtonBay said...

Yes, certainly :~)

Use it in good health, it's a fine word. :~)

SFTS said...

Okay WashingtonBay, you just lost me there dear. You *respect* Dena?? Oh, brother.

Dena, thanks for the lulz. ;)

WashingtonBay said...

You *respect* Dena?? Oh, brother.

Insofar as her recent stand against self-appointed internet bullies and their minions that harass kids? You bet I do.

On that, my record is clear. That's why the baseless and accusations here against me and my forum for doing just that got under my skin so much.

See the danger in appointing yourself as a self-righteous defender of all that is *good*, is "mission creep". Fugly, and now this blog, probably started out with a somewhat admirable mission, to highlight irresponsible breeders, or clear cases of abuse and mistreatment in the show ring, but without discernment and restraint, they end up deciding they're justified in going after kids having fun with their horses because they aren't wearing an approved helmet, or because their horse has gotten a little overbent in a turn, not in the show ring, but practicing at home.

Instead of looking at forums and seeing great communities of fellow horse people on the web in all stripes and types, they start seeing everyone as an idiot and think it is somehow their mission to 'eradicate stupidity'.

In the old days, we used to call those people busy-bodies and nosy neighbors, but at least their reach was limited to what they could see down their nose on their own block. Now, they're on the internet and they can poke their nose in and gossip about anyone they want... all anonymously and without accountability, on the internet.

And they're still a pain in the ass to be around. :~)

My two cents.

SFTS said...

Oh, dear.

"Self appointed internet bullies and their minions who harass kids"?

Were you aware that the woman has had six of her own children taken away from her by the state of Minnesota? Not to mention her other, um, indiscretions and record.

Okay...

Let's go on to your forum, and the FHOTD blog.

Until I read about it here on this blog, I had never heard of your forum. Needless to say, I didn't have a very good first impression, however I'm always willing to see both sides of a point and an argument. As a writer myself, published for well over 20 years, I'm firmly on Tracy's side regarding having her work stolen. In reading through the thread in question, I felt sympathy for each side, because I did see how members of your forum may have been unfairly shown in a light which probably was not intended. Because of the sensitivity Tracy has toward her essay/poem and having fought to prevent further copyright violations over the past year and a half, she may have overreacted in some manner. IMO, both sides made grave mistakes in this battle, and as so often happens things got out of hand. Imagine that, something getting out of hand on the internet, especially on a horse forum! *insert sarcasm*

SFTS said...

I've been a commenter on the FHOTD blog only since January of this year, after having occasionally heard about it since 2007. What I found there is a terrific community of folks who love horses with a wide range of varied backgrounds. Kind of like you see your own forum. Actually, most of us who participate don't agree with Cathy a lot of the time, even though she does make some good points. It's not about Cathy, it's about the community.

Both FHOTD and this blog still have that same admirable mission ~ and because so many people agree with the mission, that's why they have been so successful. I don't see either Cathy or TJM as self righteous defenders of anything other than their own opinions. We all know that age old saying about opinions, don't we? That part about "without discernment and restraint"? How about taking personal responsibility for one's own words and one's own actions? Neither Cathy or TJM incite anyone, encourage anyone to send hate mail, encourage anyone to make hateful comments. People do that all on their own. Blog owners, or forum owners (like yourself), have zero control over their members or commenters. None.

1) "Going after kids having fun with their horses because they aren't wearing an approved helmet"

Have you seen what damage can be done to an adult's head by a horse hoof, or to an adult without wearing a helmet and taking a bad fall? Let alone a small child? No, helmets do not prevent every injury from happening, But they go a very long ways toward preventing many of them. Anyone who would see nothing wrong with children doing dangerous things with their horses, especially without wearing an SEI/ASTM approved helmet, I have a real problem with. I always insist EVERY child who rides with me wears a helmet. Adults can choose if they want to do so, but it's not negotiable for the kids. Some insurance companies won't cover a trainer, instructor or stable that does not insist on the same.

2) "Going after [people] because their horse has gotten a little overbent in a turn, not in the show ring, but practicing at home"

Missing the point. Honestly, if a horse "had gotten a little overbent in a turn at home", no one gives a darn. Have you been out there, watching what regularly goes on in the show ring on all levels recently? On any given weekend, on any given circuit, I could bring home loads of pictures of horses actually in the show ring during classes that are way too overbent, behind and evading the bit. That's not a good thing. Here's the problem with that "little bit of overbent": Folks see that, especially kids, and begin to automatically think it's okay, it's the way things are done, it's the proper way to train and ride horses. Then you suddenly have the miscreants often seen on YouTube, they're mostly without parental supervision and voila`, you have a recipe for disaster.

3) "They start seeing everyone as an idiot and think it is somehow their mission to 'eradicate stupidity'.

Can you deny that there are a whole lot of "idiots" out there in the horse world? If so, sweetie you really need to open your eyes. No one, not Cathy, not TJM, not I, not anyone I can think of is on any mission to eradicate anything. Bring the stupidity you regularly see to light? Sure enough. A lot of us are tired of the abuse we've been exposed to or seen, the ridiculous excuses people use to abuse their horses and think it just needs to have some light shed on those things.

We can agree to disagree. ;)

Tuffy Horse said...

Washington Bay,

You weren't pegged as the bad guy on my site until you refused to remove the thread. It's called reciprocal damage control. Since the thread existed and was biased towards your forum, I have to have a counter part up in order to show my reasons, this way both sides show up in a google search. Had you removed the thread then I wouldn't have listed your forum on my site. Had you removed the thread then Jean wouldn't have listed you here. Once the entire thread and any reference to me or Jean is gone then the stuff disappears off of the blog and my website. I've upheld this policy with anyone that sincerely takes action to get my articles off of their sites. Those that don't stay listed in order to explain the other side of the issue.

And for the record, the flame war started when YOUR group told me I didn't have any rights to my property.

Tracy M

Cut-N-Jump said...

WB- you can email me if you like. It's in the profile or here-

cutnjump1 at yahoo dot com.

I was merely trying to attain a clear picture of how your forum is 'run' so to speak.

Yes there are plenty of forums and blogs out there that sacrifice the best interest of the horse for the good feelings of other posters. I personally am not a fan of that. If people want to learn, at some point they have to suck it up, admit to their own shortcomings and face their weaknesses.

I am not attacking you or the group, just trying to clarify if only for myself, where it is you all come from and what level of knowledge or experience you bring to the table, as it is.

If you would like to join in and add to the conversation on my newly formed blog about grooming, please do. I do not object as it is there for educating the horseworld of the things that people do and subject their horses to, for the sake of a ribbon.

cattypex said...

"If people want to learn, at some point they have to suck it up, admit to their own shortcomings and face their weaknesses. "

Heh. I tried to help a nice little girl with an adorable Halflinger last summer. She had a TERRIBLE chair seat, because she'd ridden bareback all her life with no instruction besides her mother. Bounced all over that poor pony's back. Horrible hands too.

So I took them aside, because they ASKED, complimented the cute pony and the fortitude of a kid who tears around bareback all the time, and proceeded to help with stirrup length, the reasons for keeping a correct leg under you, and oh by the way, this cheap curb bit without a strap isn't working well - why don't you just use her old driving bit in the meantime, because it's what she's used to - just for now? Please?

I then gave the mom some pointers about working with the kid, the importance of a good seat beyond merely sticking to the horse, laughed about ponytude, etc.

At the end of it all, she said to her daughter, "hey, quit worrying about all that technical stuff and just go have fun."

I am always floored by people who don't want to learn how to do something properly, because hey, if you're not falling off, then you're doing it right, huh?

ANYway.....

SFTS said...

You did the right thing, and you tried, CP. That's what counts. :) Not only, but I'm going to bet that the little girl remembers what you taught her years down the line, and will be grateful for that knowledge, even if she doesn't use it right now.

WashingtonBay said...

and as so often happens things got out of hand. Imagine that, something getting out of hand on the internet, especially on a horse forum! *insert sarcasm*


What? Unheard of... absurd! :~D

Somewhere between a community that ignores and encourages poor horsemanship, and one that badgers a child they don't even know except from a youtube video, is the right balance of high ideals and respect for the freedom of other people to make their own choices.

It's a journey...
May we all try to find that sweet spot. :~)

Good day...

Dena said...

SFTS you are so incredibly predictible.

I have done many things in my life.
But one thing I have never been accused of let alone found guilty of is harassing a child.

No. No restraining orders asked for and granted against me for threatening children.

Wasn't that you SFTS who called that childs home and told her that if you ever caught her riding you would run her over with your truck?

TJM I am out of here. I apologize for the trash that followed me here and used me as an excuse to introduce herself.

SFTS said...

WB, I appreciate your idea of your community, and hope that it serves you well. As I have said, I see both sides of the situation, though as a writer myself I tend to side with a colleague who's been injured.

Dena...again, thanks for the lulz. No one followed you anywhere, and no one cares about your delusional rantings. You're leaving? Thank God. But since you say that just about everywhere you spew your venom, lies and nonsense, then just can't take it upon yourself to actually go away as we all wish you would, I won't hold my breath.

And for the record, which can be subpoenaed from the phone company (pun intended), not only have I never called the individual you just_can't_stop bringing up (either mother or daughter), but we have never spoken directly at all, and I've never, ever threatened to run over anyone.

Spreading libel over the internet can cause you to get in just as much trouble as defaming folks and violating copyright law, Dena. You may want to contact your lawyer, though maybe you should find one that deals in civil law, as opposed to criminal law this time.

Great blog as I've told you before, TJM! Hopefully the rifraf truly will stay away.

vltrnjd said...

Tracy ther is nothing pseudo about me as a lawyer and I still have not heard from your lawyer. The law is clear on what you did and call ing people thieves is slander by you. Your words giving permissiosnon Jan. 22 for the pice to go forward in emails without first posting it as a copyrighted piece or making it clear that you wanted your copyrights reserved under the laws in this tcountry as they stand today was you placing the piece into the public domain voluntarily. It has also always been posted without intent to charge for it commercially so it expressly falls under the fair use doctrine. The evidence and the law is on my web page and every time you bring up misrepresentations about yor own actions and my qualifications I will throw your own actions and words out for web buddies to see. Go to www.vltrnjd.com and click on crazy legal issues. If you want tofight about what the law is send your lawyer to me your lay misinterpretations and viscous attacks on people who have innocently posted a forwarded email that you authorized is defamation. Victoria Thompson, JD

vltrnjd said...

Excuse the typos my new iphone and I aren't on the same key.

vltrnjd said...

In case it wasn't clear - Tracy you gave permission to a number of third parties to publish your piece via email without reserving or noting your reserved copyright. If you publish yourself the copyright is intact (presumed) - if you voluntarily allow third parties to publish it without making it clear that you were reserving your rights then you have given to the public domain and you end up with the mess you have. Everyone has taken down the piece - the issue is whether or not you have slandered others by calling them thieves and accusing them of stealing property when you know you gave it away. That is why your first accusation when you see it posted somewhere is that it was taken off of your web site. YOu know that it came from the viral emails and not your web site but you accuse them of theft from your wesite. The sole reason you would do that is because you have known even before I've told and am telling you about how the copyright law works in this country is true. Copyright law protects the commercial value in works - no one has made any money off of your piece to date. I've checked with those that have published both with and without your permission - no was paid diddly squat for it. The only items for sale are on your store site. Anywhere. Posting the piece for public comment falls specifically within the terms of the fair use doctrine of copyright law. Until you get a law license or a lawyer to fight with me in court about how the law should or should not apply you have to stop defaming others. As I tried to tell you before - you only hurt yourself in doing that. So stop trying to act like a lawyer - hire one or shut up.

SFTS said...

Slander ~ spoken defamation. Libel ~ written defamation. Can we at least get the terminology right? :)

vltrnjd ~ what state(s) are you licensed to practice law in, what is your bar association number, how long have you been in practice and what is your field of legal specialty? Thanks.

vltrnjd said...

Texas, all federal courts, 5th Circuit, Supreme Court, Colorado is pending. Terminology is blurred in chats online and telephone conversations - The courts use those interchangeably in internet cases. I was the first female trial partner in our law firm, I had dual board certifications in PI and Civil Trial until I retired from the law firm, I was a critical care nurse before going to law school, I practiced medical malpractice litigation, patent, trademark and copyright litigation for 20 years, I retired from the firm after I married my senior partner and moved into publishing law, intellectual property licensing and intellectual property litigation. I consult nationally and appear pro hac vice in other states and several other countries when needed. I have successfully tried more than a dozen internet cases, one of then is on my web site. I have practiced law since 1983. If you are an attorney and representing Tracy please call me. If not know that statutes are only effective if there is litigation, a judgment, and appeal and published appellate court opinions. It is the treatment of similar factual situations by the courts that are important in law, not the black letter of the statutes themselves. There are two cases cited on my web page that are four corners on the issues Tracy is facing. She can turn this around but accusing people of stealing is not the way to do it. She clearly told several peolple they could share her piece and they published it as they saw fit. She should have told them to share only the link to her web site and the viral emails would have protected her work better from the start. Defaming people by name on the internet is the wrong way to handle it.

SFTS said...

No, I am not a lawyer (though I seriously considered attending law school just out of college, my interest was as a prosecutor). I am a horse trainer and riding instructor who is also a writer/author.

Would this be you? (click link)

Primary Practice Areas: Litigation: Personal Injury

??

At quick glance, all I see in relation to any legal cases on your website is a page with mention of Tracy, along with two cases where you apparently represented miniature horse owners against a woman named Arlene Toback. I see a plethora of personal stuff, then a link that you are trying to start a small scale publishing company.

My opinion, admittedly as a layperson who has only had pre-law schooling (though studying law is a personal hobby ~ I have gotten a personal injury attorney here in California disbarred some years back due to gross misconduct), is that you are engaging in professionally reckless behavior by posting a page on your website entitled "crazy legal issues" and particularly how you have handled the situation with Tracy.

Translate that into ~ Tracy has one Hell of a lot of ammunition against you to go to the State Bar of Texas with. Just saying.

vltrnjd said...

It's all legal. I've invited her to file what she wants to file. I am only on this spot because tracy brought the issue here. Since she is backing off I will too. It is a personal website not a professional one. I put up issues that need to get a hit on google because they may pose risk for others in the future. No need to post any other matters. We only use the pub house to assist self-published authors and script writers to get to NY top ten publishers and the best LA agents. The goal is not have a list of active titles.

Sara said...

Poor Tracy...all she wants if for her personal work to be removed from sites that she didn't give permission to post it. She created it, it's hers, is that so wrong of her to want???? It doesn't matter if she's given some sites/magazines permission to use it, or if she sent it out amongst her friends in emails, or if she is making an income from it!!! She's been going through this for a YEAR AND A HALF, so it's totally understandable that she'd be so upset when she STILL sees it amongst places without her permission.

I know I sure don't want my writings/photos circulating on other websites or in emails. I'd hope that others would respect me and my property enough to not pass it around. Now that said, I have never looked up the author/creator of emails or text messages I receive, because quite truthfully, like many of you, I didn't feel like I was doing any harm to anyone. Does that make it right? Probably not, but it was just stupidity on my part. I didn't realize that a lot of the stuff going around probably isn't actually intended to from the person who made it. This has been a big eye opener for me.

So, someone saw Tracy's beautiful words and knew it was something that others would feel a connection to. Whether they saw it in an email, or on another forum, they wanted to share it with their friends and fellow horsemen. Is that so wrong? They weren't deliberately trying to hurt someone's feelings or get monetary gain out of it, nor did they steal it from Tracy's personal website. A thief is someone who DELIBERATELY takes someone's property. If something is floating around, it isn't deliberate unless you purposely remove the author's name. Not saying it's right, but it is understandable, and it isn't quite theft.

So Tracy sees it, and demands that the forums remove her work. The forums take it down within a short amount of time, but that's not good enough because the THREAD wasn't removed. People had already written positive things about the work, and most forums seldom remove full threads. Like someone said earlier, it's proof of what's been said by whoever said it. This isn't good enough for Tracy and she starts getting upset about it. People retaliated, trying to explain how it happened, yada yada. And like what happened here, it became a pack mentality - it's human nature to defend your friends.

Why is it so hard to see this from both sides?

I'm sure that no one...not Tracy, nor the forums...intended for it to get this far. A lot of HORRIBLE things have been said from both her and the forum members. Like I said earlier, both parties are way out of line!!! She's upset, people! And has the right to be...it's her stuff floating around! Yet, these forum members are human and mistakes happen. Nothing has been intentional except for the heated tempers that has followed. So where does everyone go from here? Personally, if both parties could admit that they're in the wrong (Tracy refusing to see that it was an easily made mistake and saying people are thieves when it wasn't intentional - and the forum moderators for not removing a thread that shouldn't have been there to begin with)...it should be pretty easily rectified.

An unjustice has been done to Tracy, but that doesn't give her the right to take it out on people who didn't know that the piece wasn't purposely amongst us. And as for the comments about her daughter...that was WAY out of line! Her daughter has nothing to do with this and should have never even been brought into it, nor should she have received emails from ANY member of a forum, if it happened.

For any mother to feel that kind of love towards her daughter, and to find the words to describe it, speaks volumns about the kind of person Tracy is. And Tracy's daughter must be equally as special to inspire her mother with those wonderful words. I don't think that Tracy should be labled a bad person because she's been upset. We all have a good side and a bad!

SFTS said...

Yeah, I can tell you're a lawyer, Vicki. You failed to answer any of the questions I had, and you continually obfuscate the real issues. Sigh.

Best of luck to you, Tracy. You've got the law on your side. :)

katphoti said...

I like how WB keeps saying she's done and then she keeps comin' back. Cracks me up.

My point with the car example was obviously misunderstood. The point is that we cannot just claim ignorance and expect to get away with something. The car was an extreme example, and I used it because it's an issue that obviously has a law behind it and of course we won't excuse it. Yet it's okay to excuse an "oops" of using someone's copyright. The law is the law--there is no in between. Well, unless the glove doesn't fit. ;)

But seriously, it's not just with copyright laws, either. There are lots of laws that people don't know about. For example: in Arizona, the law requires that children under the age of 18 must wear a helmet when "riding" something. This includes ATVs, bicycles, horses, scooters, whatever. Yet most people don't know that. I heard a story about a woman who was ticketed because her children weren't wearing helmets at an ATV club event. No, she didn't know about the law, but ignorance was no excuse.

Cut-N-Jump said...

Kat- there's another poster who repeatedly makes those same claims. Poof! Then, three posts later- their back.

WashingtonBay said...

I like how WB keeps saying she's done and then she keeps comin' back. Cracks me up.

Believe me when I say I'd love to have been done posting here soon after my first post, though I do thank this blog for the publicity and the new members we've gotten from it.

But when people say wrong things about me and my friends, I feel compelled to speak up. And when people address me, I feel it's rude to not answer.

Call it a personality flaw... But I'm accustomed to speaking to friends.

Cut-N-Jump said...

WB- I addressed you a little while up there^^^. Told you if you wish to email me- feel free.

You're welcome to join the discussion on my grooming blog too.

All the links are in my profile.

If you choose to show up there or send an email- I'm good with that. If not, I'm good with that too. No hurt feelings here, either way. I can get past things like that.

WashingtonBay said...

CnJ...

I did see your invitation to check out your blog, and I will do that. :~) I was not too sure what I was supposed ask or say in an email versus here?

As for the level of skill or they types of relationships we have on the forum, I guess the best way to get a feel for that would be to browse the forum and see for yourself. There's all kinds there, and lots of different things going on, lots of perspectives. As I said above, I think we're usually pretty good at figuring out what needs said, and what doesn't, and when. :~)

Tuffy Horse said...

Sara,

Thank you for the accurate assessment of the situation. What Washington Bay DID remove from the forum, was her snarky comment after she deleted the poem, where she accuses me of being some hysterical nutbag. She didn't want to delete the thread, but she realized how petty her snarky comment made her look so she did remove it, but not until everyone there got to see it and laugh about it. So she removes things when it suits her, and figures it will reflect badly on her.


Tracy M

Tuffy Horse said...

Victoria,
Victoria,
You have no way of knowing who has published the piece or whether I was paid. You do NOT have the complete records of where my piece is published, nor who I have given permission to and who I haven't. You're basing your assessment SOLELY on what you dig up on the internet, there is a whole other world out there where I work as a writer. You have NO idea how many of my articles have been bought and paid for, nor how many were bought by other marketing entities. You also keep making the assumption that I don't have an attorney, simply because I haven't sicc'd them on you as of yet. It's not my problem whether you believe it or not. If you want to make that kind of stupid assumption then go ahead.

Furthermore you do NOT have a copy of the first email that the article ever appeared on.

Here's what was at the bottom of that email, which I can prove because I still have a copy of the email in my sent file.

Notice to ALL members: All emails are the copyrighted property of the author and the Appaloosa Horse Politics list and may not be reproduced, or forwarded without permission from the author and the moderator. Forwarding of list mail will result in the immediate removal from the Appaloosa Horse Politics list. Any email sent to this list is automatically covered by all US and Foreign Copyright laws, including the Berne Convention.

What part of COPYRIGHTED are you not getting? I cannot help it if people forwarded it on and removed the copyright warning, and my name, from it. That means they are thieves because they are taking my work and passing it on without acknowledging me. My website has copyright notices on it. My store has copyright notices on it. Every place that I gave permission to use it listed me as author, which verified my copyright. And for the record: The Appaloosa Politics List is owned by my sister and she can verify that every single email sent to that list gets the copyright notice printed on it. It's an automatic addition to EVERY email because there are several writers that are members of the list.

So your claims that it was in the public domain were way off base. I have NEVER released my ownership of the piece because the very FIRST time it was ever sent out it had a copyright notice on it. I can PROVE that the article was NEVER anywhere on the internet prior to January 21st, 2008 because that is the day I wrote it, printed it, framed it and presented it to my daughter.

And you're failing to mention that your client continued to act like a spoiled brat just because she didn't like my "tone" even though she had previously acknowledged my ownership of the piece and removed it from the mini forum. Your behavior, as an attorney, has been bullying and deplorable. You have urged people to ignored my legal copyright. Told people that my piece is in the public domain and then posted a bunch of assumptions on your part to back up your claims, all without having a copy of the original email, or knowing anything about the history of the piece beyond what you've gathered trolling a few forums.

So when I show the TBA the cancelled checks from people that have paid for the use of my piece, and the contract for it's publication in book form and all the crap on your website, as well as the copyright certificate from the Library of Congress, then your bullying is going to look foolish.

The issue was simple: Remove my copyrighted article from a forum. You and your client, if she even is your client since she's in Canada and you're in Texas, decided to be jerks and threaten me with all kinds of stupid stuff. The emails you posted of mine only show me saying I wanted it removed. You neglected to post the emails where you threaten me, as well as violating the ethical considerations of an attorney.

You're assuming that because I haven't taken things to the level of stupidity that you have that I'm backing off. I can assure you that as you have been before, you are wrong again.

Tracy M

Tuffy Horse said...

Washington Bay,

Call it a personality flaw, but I expect people to respect my works as an author and not make attacks on my child, just because they think being a member of a forum gives them the right to get nasty with a person's family.

And regardless of whether the people who sent her emails are active BWF members, they got the info FROM your forum. You left the evidence in place, including the nasty comments about my daughter, on your forum and made it seem like it was a "cool" thing to do. After all, some dork sending my kid a nasty email is okay, because a forum was already making nasty comments. The people that sent her emails followed the link to my website directly from your forum, and I have the stat tracker log to prove it.

The solution to the whole situation is simple: If there isn't a trail to follow then people won't use it. Your forum is the start of the trail to harrassing my daughter, because other than the mini foroum, yours is the only one that left up comments saying nasty things about her. Other than your forum and the mini forum every other forum that I have requested removal of the article from has complied and not turned it into a free for all. Why is it that everyone else gets it, and these two forums don't?


Tracy M

WashingtonBay said...

The people that sent her emails followed the link to my website directly from your forum, and I have the stat tracker log to prove it.

And I can probably prove that they got to my forum from the big blaring link to my forum on your page.

You, my dear, are the source of the angst.

If you hadn't posted the link to our forum from your page, and you hadn't re-opened all this here, that thread would be sunk down into the archives by now, and would not even show up in a google search. You, my dear, are keeping it alive. And I'm not going to delete it now, no way. Not after all this. The proof of what actually happened is not going to be left up to you.

Sorry. :~)

tthornsmith said...

Tracy. stop being such a witch and making things up! The Mini Forum owner removed your poem when you sent a threatening e-mail to her. Yes, the owner was not impressed with your threats and calling the members of her established Mini Forum a bunch of thieves. The poem was honestly posted by a member that got it in a viral e-mail to share with her friends on the mini board.. Why do you think EVERYONE is out to steal from you? What the hell is wrong with your mind? Their was no intensions what-so-ever to steal from you on that forum.. so stop the made-up crap that you keep spewing and exaggerating even more each time you write about it. The people on the mini forum are really a great bunch of people that do not deserve your nasty untruths. You can go a lot further if you treat people with respect instead of spewing your nasty, hate venom at people that have no idea your poem was penned by you. Do you have anything in you that is the least bit nice? All people see from you in the messages you post on the various boards is an extremely angry woman all the time with psychotic thoughts in your mind that EVERYONE is out to steal from you. I truly feel you need some professional help to get this un-natural, 24/7 negative attitude fixed, help you to enjoy life before it is to late and to see that many people are really kind and caring if treated nicely to begin with. Please consider this as good advise because you have made quite a name for yourself. NOT because of the poem, BUT your NASTY ATTITUDE.

SFTS said...

WashingtonBay wrote:
Believe me when I say I'd love to have been done posting here soon after my first post...

But when people say wrong things about me and my friends, I feel compelled to speak up. And when people address me, I feel it's rude to not answer.

- - - - - - - -

You'd better watch out for your friend Dena then, WB, because she seems to have a real problem with that concept. Just sayin'. ;)

Tracy, I remember all that between Sue and Rose, much of it spilled over to my email groups mentioned above. Rose is still a friend...she's a good person and a terrific lady. I was mortified when she had to go through all that nonsense.

vltrnjd said...

Tracy all of our emails are posted - verbatim - you call names and make threats and try to bully and you really don't like it when someone stands up to you. You threatened my clients before I was ever involved and it is the only reason I was involved. The piece was removed and you continued the rant. I assure you that when I gather eveidence I do not simply rely on the internet. I gather statements, documents and investigate. Fortunately for me you have antagonized so many people that your communications with others have streamed in to me. The post of your threats stays up. The post of our email contacts and your contradictory words and actions stays up. BTW - your later added notice on the yahoo groups and the geocities groups and emails states that if you give permision they can use it - you gave permission without retaining rights. Why do you think licensing agreements are so detailed? Since you are so knowledgeable about your copyrighted work how could you have been so ill-sighted? As I said - if you want to file complaints against me take your best shot, file a lawsuit - go for it. But I won't play the game of give Tracy more attention because all you want to do is sit back and call names and try to play lawyer yourself or with your pre-law horse trainer buddies. Get real or go home.

Tuffy Horse said...

Victoria,

You are so full of crap. I never released it into the public domain. I addressed the use of my piece to individual people. And for a lawyer that supposedly does such due diligence you seem to have no idea about previous internet libel cases, the history of my article or anything else of any relevance. Every action you've taken has shown the people here that you're a bully and a fraud.

And for the record I considered the issue dropped when your client removed the point and then YOU, as your time stamped email shows, urged her post a bunch of crap and tell her group that my work is in the public domain. You deliberately continued to harass me about it via email and kept making threats.

I don't have to sue you, the TBA and ABA will handle this for me.
As for your client, she's already fast getting a reputation based on her actions towards me and the theft of my property. So she's hurting herself, I don't have to do a thing about it.

I'm the one that had my stuff stolen. I'm the one that was wronged. It's pretty cut and dried and doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out.

Sara said...

No problem Tuffy! I'm glad that at least one of us has it right, and just so everyone knows, I'm a member of BOTH forums that are "bad". I wrote to Tracy before it got way out of hand on the mini forum...I have explained to her how very sorry I am that all of this has happened. She responded very kindly, although I could tell that it frustrates her that her personal stuff has been such a hassle for her.

That said, I AM a member of both forums. I know the people at LB pretty well and a lot of them are really nice people. I just joined the WB forum, and they seem really nice too. So, I do understand that a lot of what has happened was an honest mistake. The original poster at the mini forum didn't know that the work wasn't intended to be "out there". She didn't deliberately take it from a copyrighted source, and I'm sure that Tracy understands that. Right? (I haven't been at WB for more than a few days, so I can't speak for the person there.) However, people have to understand that Tracy has been battling this for a long time, and she's understandably upset over it. She never wanted it out there on uncopyrighted sites.

I read the first email where Tracy requested her essay be removed from the mini forum. I don't think it was her intention to be rude...I think at this point, she wanted to be very clear about her wishes and let the receiver know that if it wasn't taken care of, legal action would be taken. Yes, she probably could have worded things nicer, but if you have been writing that email over and over to people and having troubles with the people receiving it, wouldn't you want to be "to the point" to begin with? I also understand that it is extremely upsetting to receive a straight forward email from someone out of the blue, so I understand the recipients point of views that things could have been said nicely. Damn, why am I so open minded???? Lol.

The only point I've been trying to make in my posts, is that I am a member of both sites, and I'm not a thief! I have never intentionally taken something that didn't belong to me, unless you count the time when I was four years old, and I walked out of a store holding a coloring book that my mom didn't know I hadn't placed up on the check-out counter. Imagine my embarrassment when she marched me right back in to pay for my stolen book. :( But, as a human being...I've made mistakes. I've made many of them. Me admitting them doesn't make it right, however, I'd hope that others would understand and accept my apologies. I also know that others make mistakes, and that two wrongs don't make a right.

I do believe that it's a little hypocritical for Tracy to be against others using her work without her permission, yet she frequents and enjoys sites that exist by taking other people's photos/ads without their permission. And I was hoping that she could see how easily it can be done without intending to hurt others, and that none of us are perfect. I also don't agree with the user of this blog keeping the picture up of an underage child, as revenge against a forum. How is hurting that child's feelings any different than the emails that hurt Tracy's child? Children are not fair game to insult on riding, as most of them only know what they're told and taught. Again, two wrongs doesn't make a right, and it shows very badly against those who involve the children.

I do understand where both parties are coming from in this issue and it's not just a black and white situation. Both sides could have handled things differently! And for the record, I do feel that Mary Lou was entitled to post the email as a recipient, but I feel it's in very bad taste for Victoria to publically post the correspondences between the parties and downgrade someone whom she wasn't having the issues with. With all due respect, she should act more professional and not let her feelings/beliefs get involved.

TxGolferGirl said...

OMG! I found this blog by searching for a local attorney for my mom in Texas and found Victoria Thompson's page on google. I cannot believe an attorney would have that kind of stuff on her webpage! We live not far from where her office is! I would never recommend an attorney tht does this kind of crazy stuff! I wonder if her clients know that she spreads private information all over the web?
I'm telling my mother to get someone else!
I'm sorry the horse people are having to deal with this craziness! I apologize for everyone in Texas, not all of us are like that!


Amberlyn

sharon said...

Wow. I wandered over here from the blog about Faith. I must say that a bigger bunch of arrogant assholes may not exist in the known universe. Your message is important. Too bad it gets lost in the "aren't we so smart and above it all" presentation. Most people act out of ignorance and lack of knowledge. You won't change a damn thing or a single mind with this blog because your intent is to shame and humiliate and to be oh so clever up there in the exalted air of perfect horsemanship. Try doing something that makes a difference.

mack said...

This is fascinating.
I’d been taught that left-aligned labels are preferred, to support the prototypical F-shaped eye-tracking heatmap of web browsing. The idea is that it supports easy vertical scanning.
online learning

Fawk Ewe said...

BECAUSE MY DAUGHTER GREW UP WITH HORSES..............
"My daughter turned sixteen years old today; which is a milestone
for most people. Besides looking at baby photos and childhood
trinkets with her, I took time to reflect on the young woman my
daughter had become and the choices she would face in the future.
As I looked at her I could see the athlete she was, and determined
woman she would soon be.
I started thinking about some girls we knew in our town who were
already pregnant, pierced in several places, hair every color under
the sun, drop outs, drug addicts and on the fast track to no where,
seeking surface identities because they had no inner self esteem.
The parents of these same girls have asked me why I "waste" the
Money on horses so my daughter can ride. I'm told she will grow out
of it, lose interest, and discover boys and all kinds of things that
try to pin the current generation's "slacker" label on my child. I
don't think it will happen, I think she will love and have horses all
her life. ..........
Because my daughter grew up with horses she has compassion. She
knows that we must take special care of the very young and the very
old. We must make sure those without voices to speak of their pain
are still cared for.
Because my daughter grew up with horses she learned responsibility
for others than herself. She learned that regardless of the weather
you must still care for those you have the stewardship of. There are
no "days off" just because you don't feel like being a horse owner
that day. She learned that for every hour of fun you have there are
days of hard slogging work you must do first.
Because my daughter grew up with horses she learned not to be
afraid of getting dirty and that appearances don't matter to most of
the breathing things in the world we live in. Horses do not care
about designer clothes, jewelry, pretty hairdos or anything else we
put on our bodies to try to impress others. What a horse cares
about are your abilities to work within his natural world, he doesn't
care if you're wearing $80.00 jeans while you do it.

oh..and I have the rest of this too. :D